If you don't like crowds and that is "non-negotiable for you", think twice about Switzerland in July, or choose very carefully. The places being mentioned here are crowded most of the year, and July is peak month for foreign tourism.

Lucerne is a great choice for a very pretty town, gorgeous lakes with steamers to charming villages and cable cars or cog railways up a number of different Alps. It is about an hour by train to the station under the Zurich airport. You can even make a fairly long day trip to ascend the Jungfrau if you want to spend the time and money. (We found it fascinating but did it from Interlaken which is easier/faster.)

There was recently a thread started on Fodor's entitled "We Won't Be Going to Lucerne Again" posted by Dianedancer. The problem? The crowds. Here is what she wrote in September of this year:

"We went on a Moscow, Munich, and Switzerland trip from which we just returned.

One place we went back to in Switzerland was Lucerne (for 2 days). The first time we were in Lucerne was in 2004. It was glorious. The second time was in 2013 in April, cold and grey but still beautiful and the height of the season hadn't started.

This time was the third week of September. Well, the hordes of tour groups was almost overwhelming. Tour group leaders yelling; people with selfie sticks. Difficult to walk around. And this wasn't even the summer! I can't imagine what it must be like in June/July/August.

What a change from our first trip in September 2004. So sad."

For people, who haven't traveled in a while, they may not realize things change.

others in the thread talked about the crowds:

"kja on Sep 28, 15 at 12:58am
When I visited Lucerne in June 2011, it was vastly more crowded, with Chinese and others, than when I first saw it in 1989. (As I understand it, Switzerland has been aggressively marketing itself to the growing middle class in China.) Fortunately, it was rainy for much of the time I was there, and most people weren't venturing out. Didn't bother me -- that's why I carry a rain jacket. During the times that were sunny and dry, it was crowded enough to limit movement."

"NE on Sep 28, 15 at 5:30pm
We were in Switzerland last September .......Lucerne and the Jungfrau region were more overrun with tourists from Asia than even London or Paris . Going up to the Jungfrau from Wengen there was an entire train booked specifically for some Asian tours . Murren was overrun too ... Going up to the schilthorn ..... Selfie sticks and all . We tried not to let the hoards of people ruin it for us and I guess the local economies benefit because in Lucerne,especially, the Asian tourists were buying lots of stuff in the high end stores ."

For some people, the problem seemed to be that the tourists were Asians, but for others, it was simply the crowds.

best castles in Belgium , good to hear.

We were in Lucerne this past June; I had been there several years ago in May, and I also found it much more crowded this time than it was on my previous trip. And, yes, there were many tour groups from Asian countries. They didn't bother us, and, like most tour groups, they followed a very well-beaten tourist trail. There were many places in the city where there were hardly any tourists at all.

Other towns in Switzerland that we visited on day trips were nowhere near as crowded as Luzerne. Brienz was a nice small town, and we really liked Basel, a larger town, as well. In fact, I would say Basel is very underrated.

The year before we were in Scotland for our June holiday.I think that unless you spend your time in Glasgow or Edinburgh, you should rent a car in Scotland. Some of the trips we took could have been done by train or bus, but we would have seen a lot less if we hadn't rented a car.

Ireland is also very nice in the summer, and there are lots of towns that aren't overrun with tourists. In rural areas, a car is advised. The Netherlands usually isn't terribly hot in July, public transportation is excellent there, and there are lots of pretty little towns that are not on the top ten tourist lists.

Both Ireland and Scotland (but also the Netherlands and much of Scandanavia) can be very rainy in July.

Finally, not all of Italy is hot in July. It's a mountainous country, and the climate depends a lot on altitude. Sandralist has given some good suggestions, but all up and down the peninsula, there are high-altitude areas that are relatively cool in the summer. We spend part of every summer in our summer house in southern Le Marche, just a few hours' drive from Rome. Although it can be hot there for a few hours at midday, we almost always need a wool blanket at night, and going out for dinner always requires a sweater and sometimes also a jacket. However, this is another area that's best seen with a car.

I just saw this post, and am appalled at the way sandralist has taken words on another post out of context to suggest that some of us are prejudiced against Asians. I find this suggestion unwarranted and extremely offensive, and will triangle sandralist's post ASAP. In the meantime, and for the record:

In referring to a thread started by dianedancer, sandralist wrote: "For some people, the problem seemed to be that the tourists were Asians" -- but sandralist took the comments entirely, and quite inappropriately and offensively, out of context. If you look at the original thread, linked below, you will see that dianedancer said: "My husband's supervisor who is from China said the 'Chinese have now discovered Lucerne'. Not that there haven't been loads of other tourists who 'discovered' Lucerne years ago, but I guess that with the increase in Chinese tourism, the bus tours/selfie sticks have added to the mayhem." So some of us commented -- without judgment -- on our observations of other tourists, Asian and others, and our observations of Swiss marketing. To suggest that <b>ANY</b> of us found the presence of Asians, <i>per se</i>, a problem is WAY out of line. You can see the original post here:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...erne-again.cfm

I seem to recall that somebody wrote that CH is making a huge marketing campaign to attract Asian tourists.
Which makes sense since Europeans (meaning the ones paid in Euros) don't go to CH anymore due to CHF having gone through the roof.

So they need other clients. And Chinese are good ones.

Today : 1 EUR = 1,08 CHF
5 12 2014 : = 1,2 CHF

http://www.marketing-chine.com/tenda...ristes-chinois

CH is destination nr 9 for Chinese tourist and Chinese are 4th country of origin for tourists visiting CH.

Article says chinese tourists should triple by 2020.
Triple. Means three times more, no ?

Nihaa

Well, I am appalled at your post. If anybody reads the thread, they can see for themselves that for "some" people, the issue was Asians. It had nothing to do with you. (Ever hear that Carly Simon song?) Go soak your head, kja. You're not the only person posting about travel on Fodor's.

I tried to post the link, but the Fodor's system wouldn't let me do it.

(PS. I'm appalled at your behavior as well for "triangling" my post. There is nothing offensive about it in the slightest. The traveler is Asian and crowd-averse. Some people here are trying to help the travler out, not grandstanding.)

guys chill!

the debate needs to move back towards how to advise the OP

Please do not blame me for responding to unwarranted attack on me. I get sick of it on Fodor's when people introduce their crap into a thread -- including trying to censor posts -- and when I express my anger at their abuse of the board, somebody comes in and equates my behavior with theirs.

I AM and WAS trying to help out the OP, as I just said in the post above yours. What kja is doing is wrong, trying to get rid of helpful posts because she imagines they reflect badly on kja, when they have NOTHING to do with kja. OK? I don't have to shup up about that.

I'll also add that I actually don't know if the OP is Asian. He or she simply indicated the are coming fro Singapore.

One other pertinent observation:

I read plenty of posts and trip reports on Fodor's where people complain about some European destinations being overrun with Americans or Brits, and hearing English spoken everywhere, and people asking for help avoiding that. Will kja be "triangling" all those posts if people discuss that or quote from it?

I didn't quote from every post in the that thread because at least one of the post's language was offensive about "hoards" of Asian tourists. In fact, in that thread itself, my only post was to object to it.

So thanks, kja, for including the link I was unable to post so people can see for themselves that "some" people do have a problem with crowds of Asian tourists, not just crowds.

Nobody will ever complain about trying to avoid US or Brits. No one loves them for plenty of good reasons.
Asians are a different matter. The only thing that can be reproached is that they come in huge numbers.
But THEY are likable people.

( gotta add a Lol here - some will not understand it is humor )

@ sandralist: When you quoted me, out of context, to suggest that I found Asian tourists to be a “problem,” YOU made it about me. If I ever again become aware that you have quoted me, out of context, with the suggestion that I am prejudiced against ANY group of people, then yes, I will defend myself and I will triangle you again.

@ RushBijoux – My sincere apologies for this unpleasant digression from your inquiry.

I have been unhappy for years when I spot a Japanese tour group, because all 40 of them want to have their photo taken in front of wherever it is, one after the other. That doesn't mean I am prejudiced against the Japanese (I loved visiting Japan), never mind Asians in general.

So far I haven't seen many Chinese tour groups, but I am certainly prejudiced against large tour groups in general. They make visits to museums exercises in crowd avoidance, and are so busy trying to keep their leader in sight they run rough shod over other people. I wish that museums would restrict tour groups to specific hours.

To the OP - as I posted on your other thread, I recommend the Hurtigruten cruise up the Norwegian coast. Unfortunately, I can't fully recommend Scandinavian cities. I was there in July and August this year, and the coastal cities were overrun with cruise ship passengers.

For mountains you might also consider western Austria. For castles I would recommend Wales and Scotland. Never heard of a castle in Belgium, perhaps someone can provide a link.

Dear fellow travelers, thank you for all your valuable input!

Upon reading some of the posts about Luzern (and other popular Switzerland towns) being crowded most of the time and especially in the Summer, I have decided not to go to Switzerland.

Yes, I am very crowd-averse, Asians or otherwise. I hate tour groups but I understand for some people it's what works best for them (save cost, probably felt safer). I know I am very lucky to have more flexibility when it comes to travel and FYI, I usually avoid traveling in July - August because it's Summer holiday in Europe (I reckon in US & UK, too?) and school holiday in Asia but as I've said, I wanted the trip to coincide with a milestone birthday.

I agree that the crowds would usually be concentrated in one or two areas and that other parts of the city might still be reasonably less crowded. Case in point: last time I was in Pisa, I visited the Leaning Tower at 7:15am and 9:00pm, and virtually NOBODY was there. But when I went there at around 10:00am (we stayed near the Tower so we always made time to walk through the complex every time we went out), I was surpised to see that it was crowded to the brim.

Same as Florence, the minute I stepped off the train at Santa Maria Novella, I almost fainted. Crowds around Duomo and Ponte Vecchio were the worst but as we moved away towards Piazzale Michelangelo, it got better.

So back to my original question, since Switzerland is off the table, our focus is now in Scotland. I've seen some blogs about traveling in Scotland and it seems blissful. I might make like these guys:

http://www.kevinandamanda.com/whatsn...cotland-2.html

but some of you have warned about the rain, is it really that bad?

As for Norway and other Scandinavian countries, I've checked out Hurtigruten and it does seem like the kind of travel that I like but perhaps not now.

My apology if my statement about best castles being from Belgium has rubbed off some of you the wrong way. I never thought about castles until I started doing research for next year's trip (because it's a milestone birthday and I wanted it to be special) and I just googled 'best castles' quickly, checked out the first link I got which wrote 'some of the best castles are in Belgium', and ran with it, not knowing whether it was true.

I'd love to see a "hoard" of Asian, or any other, tourists.

Rush,
I'm Belgian, so I love when somebody says the best castles are in Belgium.
But they aren't, unfortunately. Some are nice though.

>>our focus is now in Scotland. I've seen some blogs about traveling in Scotland and it seems blissful. I might make like these guys:

but some of you have warned about the rain, is it really that bad?<<

Never EVER plan a trip to Scotland based on possible weather. It changes constantly and you might find rain -- or not a drop. June/early July is a FABULOUS time to visit Scotland. June is actually sort of a shoulder season in Scotland after the May bank holidays and before the UK school summer holidays which start mid-ish July. The days are insanely long (like dusk around 11PM and the scenery is outrageously beautiful. More castles than almost anywhere else on earth. If it was me -- I'd start a brand new thread - this one has morphed and is VERY long/unwieldy w/ lots of digressions. There are LOTS of Scotland fans who probably won't wade through all of this to find new ideas of visiting Scotland.


__________________________________________________ ____________

We spent two weeks in Scotland a year and a half ago (in June) and never opened an umbrella. I even got a sunburn! However, a friend of ours who lives in Glasgow says that it rains all the time.