Mahya2

Logos,

There is something you should take into account.

Just as it is as a German, you have the right to criticize your country - but resent it if others do so,
just because Americans are criticizing the worst administration and actions in the history of our country - you would be wise, as an outsider so to speak, not to do so.

Diplomacy and being "politically correct" are not your strong points.

logos999

Well, I do have the right to critisize any country and any administration from anywhere. And noone can take that away from me. You don not yet seem to have understood that simple concept. It's called freedom.
"political correctness", as you call it, is only there to limit peoples freedoms. It has no other use.

longboatkey

Mahya Only until the world price for wheat surpasses corn; then farmers will rev up the wheat planting attachments to the tractor!!!

longboatkey

Mahya, Even if the Euro dips a few more cents; on a expenditure of $5,000.00 you would garner a couple of hundred dollars more spending power, not exactly a deal breaker/maker.

Mahya2

Longboat,

Bite your tongue :0

I'm hoping not to get anywhere near an expenditure of $5000. ! (althoug I'm beginning to think, "well, as long as I'm over there, maybe a trip to Greece too"

Mahya2

By the way, was someone saying that the Country of Georgia has no access to the
Caspian Sea ?

Geography of Georgia from Wikipedia:

"The largest river is the Mtkvari (formerly known by its Azerbaijani name, Kura, which is still used in Azerbaijan), which flows 1,364 km from northeast Turkey across the plains of eastern Georgia, through the capital, Tbilisi, and into the Caspian Sea. "

And that's why Russia fought not to give Georgia its "statehood" and autonomy, and still are.

travelgourmet

<i>- A country (=government) invading another country without being attacked....</i>

Once again, you seem to lack the background knowledge to comment intelligently. This isn't about the US. And it certainly isn't about some new-found Russian fear of the American military, driven by Iraq.

It is about 200+ years of Russian intervention in Georgian politics. It is about Russia &quot;protecting&quot; Russian minorities that are only in Georgia as a result of a policy of Russification under the Soviet Union (oddly, Stalin was actually Georgian). This was always about solidifying the ties between Moscow and the rest of the Soviet Union by breaking down local traditions and culture and building up a common, Russo-centric one. Now, they are using that as the justification for sticking their noses in in the first place

At the end of the day, Georgians have overwhelmingly and actively courted US (and NATO) protection as a counterweight to Russian meddling. And they seek this because they have memories that go back further than 6 months. They seek this because Putin has lionized the great Russian imperialists, adopted much of the rhetoric of past Russian aggressors, and used significant force to squash Chechen bids for independence. It is the same fear that leads countries like Poland to build close relationships with the US, knowing that the French and the Germans don't give a toss about their sovereignty.

Feel free to be disagree with the Iraq War, but don't make specious arguments about unrelated events, in an attempt to turn your anti-Americanism into some pseudo-intellectual, grand theory of international relations. Actually, I take that back, please continue to do so, as I find it funny.

<i>Oh yes, I forgot to mention
our little war in Korea, where we have had troops since 1950. No, we dont make other countries states, we just occupy them till the end of time - as numbskull intends to do in Iraq.</i>

All I can say is that you are waaaaay off-base about Korea. First off, the war ain't over - no peace treaty has ever been signed. Second, the US is there at the invitation of the South Korean government. Third, North Korea is run by a madman and has engaged in numerous acts of saber-rattling aimed at both Japan and South Korea. The US is not occupying South Korea, the US is protecting South Korea from a homicidal regime.

logos999

&gt;our little war in Korea,
Were the official whithe house policy was to KILL all refugees wanting to cross the lines to the south. Not so good for making friends.

valerie218

It's now 1.51

Yeah keep going down, I leave for Europe in 16 days.

JoyC

Well to be exact:

&euro;1 = $1.50476 as of 8/09/2008

travelgourmet

<i>Not so good for making friends.</i>

Amazingly, relations between South Korea and the US are relatively cordially. If you want to figure out how to alienate people, try systematically killing 11 million civilians. Or starting two, large-scale aggressive wars within 35 years of each other. Or developing one of the most complete infiltrations of police into society the world has ever seen. That's how you make enemies...

I understand that you find some actions of US administrations troublesome. But, considering how worked up that gets you, I would think Germany's track record would keep you constantly paralyzed with rage. Oddly, you seem focused on the failings of other states. Overcompensation, perhaps?

logos999

Now, you're back to you old insults, only partly covered by any reality, (like WWI) try new ones for a change.

Most interestingly, the recent!! crimes of the US government don't show up in any of your statements.

Those are the things you should worry about today, because they actually take place today.

travelgourmet

<i>Most interestingly, the recent!! crimes of the US government don't show up in any of your statements.</i>

That's because you haven't made any logical connections between them, the Russian actions in Georgia, supposed US attempts to restrict Western European access to Russian oil, the value of the Euro, US standing in South Korea, or much of anything else.

<i>Now, you're back to you old insults</i>

No insults. German actions during much of the 20th century may be particularly shameful, but pointing that out is no more of an insult than your oft-repeated displeasure with US actions in Iraq.

Indeed, I applaud your disgust at the injustices done there. What I don't applaud is the complete lack of any intellectual rigor in the way you warp that displeasure into a poorly-reasoned worldview.

I also have to question the sincerity of that displeasure when it seems that only the US can do anything wrong. I mean, in this thread you have now airbrushed German atrocities, the continued Russian interference in Georgian affairs, and the aggressive role taken by the North Koreans in the Korean War. Instead, it is all the US's fault. You do understand why that calls your objectivity and understanding of history, ethics, and international relations into question?

logos999

You compare and equal a former &quot;fascist dictatorship&quot; to a &quot;democracy&quot; today. There's your error. You expect both regiments to be the same. And judge them in the same way.

And you persent absurd justifications for Russian actions today. Ever realized that the area is inhabited by mostly Russians? No, you didn't you think it's about Georgia vs. Russia and old history.

jsmith

Interesting how a thread about currency evolved into a thread about Russia and Georgia.

You don't have to own the oil or gas. You do need to control the route it takes to get to market. Russia wants the control of both,
--------------------
Georgia: Oil pipelines at risk Last Updated: 9:57PM BST 09 Aug 2008

The gas and oil pipelines that run through Georgia are of strategic importance to Western Europe because they reduce dependence on Russian supplies and do not cross Russian territory.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6m5fh5

--------------------
Gazprom Offers to Buy All Libya's Oil and Natural-Gas Exports

By Lucian Kim

July 10 (Bloomberg) -- OAO Gazprom, Russia's state- controlled energy company, offered to buy all oil and gas available for export from Libya, threatening to grab greater control of Europe's energy supplies.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/5mlfu5

-------------------------
Russia has recently claimed ownership of much of the area under the Arctic ice cap which is expected to contain vaste amounts of oil and gas. Who knows, maybe they own the Arctic Ocean area adjacent to ANWR and can just siphon the hydrocarbons off with directional drilling and that will solve that argument.

Mahya2

There is a race between the countries ( and I'm not just speaking about the US and Russia - England and France are in their pitching also) to corner all oil in the world - and especially
in areas where deals and pipelines are going to the East - China.

Next the wars will be over water.

Which is why I'm doing as much traveling as I can afford NOW.-

Mahya2

I appreciate TravelGoutmet waving the American flag but we have been no angels. Our entire foreign policy since WW2 has sucked, and probably before that too - but it wasn't until the Dulles boys formed the CIA and imported GERMAN nazis by the way into it, that things got really terrible. My Uncle was at Nuremburg by the way and in the OSS.

Wikipedia: &quot;Why Did the Korean War Break Out&quot;

The underlying reason that the Korean War broke out was because it was just another episode in the ongoing Cold War between the USA and the USSR. On the surface, the Korean War seemed to be a war between South Korea and North Korea, but really the superpowers were just using it as a front to combat each other without actually going into a ‘hot war’ which – as both had the atomic bomb – would have been MAD (mutually assured destruction).

The USA went to war in Korea for three reasons.

The first reason was the ‘Domino theory’. Salami tactics in eastern Europe was not the only place where Communists were coming to power. In the Far East, too, they were getting powerful – China turned Communist in 1949. Truman believed that, if one country fell to Communism, then others would follow, like a line of dominoes. He was worried that, if Korea fell, the next ‘domino’ would be Japan, which was very important for American trade. This was probably the most important reason for America’s involvement in the war.
The second reason was just to try to undermine Communism. President Truman believed that capitalism, freedom and the American way of life were in danger of being overrun by Communism. The Truman Doctrine had been one of ‘containment’ – stopping the Communists gaining any more territory. In April 1950 the American National Security Council issued a report (NSC 68) recommending that America abandon 'containment' and start 'rolling back' Communism. This led Truman to consider driving the Communists out of North Korea.
Finally, Truman realised the USA was in a competition for world domination with the USSR. By supporting South Korea, America was able to fight Communism without directly attacking Russia.
The USSR, also, went to war because of the Cold War. Stalin wanted to see Communism expand as long as he did not get involved in a ‘hot war’ with America. In 1949, Kim II Sung visited Stalin. He persuaded Stalin that he could conquer South Korea. Stalin did not think that America would get involved, so he gave his agreement. Kim II Sung also went to see Mao Tse Tung, the leader of China, to get his support. The trigger for the war was when, in 1950,(South Korean) Syngman Rhee boasted that he was going to attack North Korea. It was a good enough excuse – the North Koreans invaded South Korea. This started the actual fighting.

And we and Russia did the same thing in Afghanistan under Zeibrinski's manipulation. Russia invaded and we trained and armed the mujahadin including Bin Laden. Afghanistan was Russia's Viet Nam, and Ziebrinski said of the fact that we trained terrorists who turned their ire onto the US - &quot;Well we knew there was going to be blowback - but we accomplished our immeidate goal&quot;.

You see for Ziebrinski and Kissinger dead Americans are collateral damage.

Notice neither of them were born or grew up in this country. So who exactly is our leadership?

Mahya2

By the way, speaking of what seekers of justice we have been in foreign ventures and the CIA, the Japanese doctors who butchered and tortured Chinese with medical experimets weren't executed - many also were imported into the CIA, which apparently was based on the SS, and brought to this country.

Some reading and education outside of what we are taught in school books would seem to be in order.

&quot;Japanese doctors' human experiments from 1933 to 1945, Japanese doctors in China performed thousands of cruel experiments on Chinese, Russians, Mongolians, and Koreans and killed all of them &quot;

Google it.

Mahya2

While you're at it, you may as well google David Rockefeller,Pappy Bush and the Trilateral Commission - and begin to understand the outsourcing of jobs, the multi-nationals abandoning the US and their intent - the drive to globalization and the &quot;New World Order&quot; (always gives me the chills when I hear those words-straight out of Hitler's mouth) all tied into the valueless dollar,the poor healthcare in the US, the WTO rules, the IMF- and it's no coincidence that it has all been accelerated while this horror has been in office.

The damage has been done and I'm very doubtful that this Congress will turn the clock back when he's gone, nor restore the Constitution .

&quot;&quot;We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government.
The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.&quot;

David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.

What that means is that those who think they are American aristocracy think that you, you peasant, are too stupid to know who or what to vote for - and only the intellectually elite -like George Bush and Rockefeller and World Bankers are qualified to run the world. Their One World Government which we are well on the way to, should and will be the &quot;deciders&quot; of which country shall thrive and have jobs and manufacturing,who shall have homes and a livable standard of living.

Don;t think you're going to read about that in any US history books - and the US media isn't telling you about it.

So when Bear Stearns or Chase Manhattan or Citibank are on the verge of bankruptcy - strangely I dont feel bad for them. Notice that the Federal Reserve which is not a govt. agency at all, but a conglomerate of these private world bankers - is bailing out their colleagues but not Joe Schmoe on Main Street America and their outrageous mortgages that these same bankers sold to them.

Tsk.

If the whole thing collapses, is the only way to throw the Federal Reserve out which is in every country in the world, and start over - without them.

travelgourmet

<i>You compare and equal a former &quot;fascist dictatorship&quot; to a &quot;democracy&quot; today. There's your error. You expect both regiments to be the same. And judge them in the same way.</i>

This is because conduct in international relations is not dependent upon the internal governmental system of a country. The US invaded Iraq because it is what any hegemon would have done. I'm not happy about some of the more unseemly conduct during that period, but it the act of going into Iraq was not the result of Bush's bloodthirsty nature, and claiming it is only leads one to erroneous conclusions.

And I didn't compare and equal anyone, I merely pointed out that you save your righteous indignation fro a single country and, in doing so, call your objectivity into question. Frankly, I think you dislike the US. I don't know why and I don't care, but it isn't because of some deep-seated concern about injustices committed by the US in Iraq or anywhere else. If it were, then you would more widely condemn acts of injustice. You wouldn't toss off past German crimes as merely the result of a bad government. You wouldn't dismiss the threat from a crumbling, psychotic regime in Pyongyang. You would recognize the repeated history of Russian crimes in places like Georgia.

Instead, it is back to the US this, America that. You made up your mind and then went looking for a justification for your opinion.

<i>And you persent absurd justifications for Russian actions today.</i>

Please. I am comfortable that my opinions are informed by significant study into the history, economics, and politics of the region. Yours, on the other hand, is based upon the theory that the US is trying to restrict Western European access to Russian oil. To what end, you don't say.

<i>Ever realized that the area is inhabited by mostly Russians? No, you didn't you think it's about Georgia vs. Russia and old history. </i>

Do you not read the posts you are attacking? Did you miss the part about the Soviet policy of Russification? Did you fall asleep in class the day they discussed the coordinated movements of Russian peoples into non-Russian areas of the Russian empire and Soviet Union? I'm fully aware that the areas are inhabited, in large part, by Russians. The difference between you and me is that I'm the only one putting their presence there into context.

And you and I have differing opinions about &quot;old history.&quot; Russian control of Georgia was active up until the end of the Soviet Union. You expect all to be forgotten and for Russia to have abandoned any territorial ambitions in less than 20 years. I'm all for living in the moment, but that is a bit ridiculous.