FrenchMystiqueTours

I see Trenitalia right between Renfe/SNCF and italo.

PalenQ

RE does sell Italo tickets, but not at the same price as Italo. When checking the same fast train in March for Florence/Venice, RE price is $34 + $7.95 processing fee (really just a fee as you print these tickets yourself at home). The same exact train on Italo Treno is 25€. At today's exchange rate that would be $28.46. Add your credit card 1% and the total is $28.74. You pay either

I did an exhaustive search for Venice to Florence trains once and RE prices weree on several trains not all matched or were lower that Italo Treno - like $29 or less on several even - you can cherry pick to show anything you want. since the SNCF owns part of Italo Treno it is no wonder their subsidiary would carry their low prices too.

Anything to make RE look as bad as possible never pointing out the matching fares like I saw many of and with no currency conversion or c c transaction fees some were indeed lower - even with the $7.95 per order (not per ticket!).

Always check www.raileurope.com for Italian train tickets as you may well find some lower even than on Italian sites and no problem to deal with.

But again comparing those tickets to the Eurailpass is like comparing apples to oranges - 2nd class to 1st class where for the average tourist carrying a lot of luggage around it is a much more relaxed ride.

Christina

I couldn't understand their business model, but thought Capitainetrain had venture capital funding, as many startups do, but had no way to make money to last in the long term. A lot of companies like that exist for a year or two and then disappear because they have no economic model.

I haven't used them so can't comment on whether they use DCC or not, but they claim to sell tickets at the same price as SNCF, aside from that. This FAQ on their website claims their business model is like a travel agency, they get a commission on every ticket that sell (from SNCF, I guess).
http://aide.capitainetrain.com/artic...ele-economique

If you have low overhead, I guess that could work, I was just surprised SNCF was paying them a commission.

PalenQ

And of course a pass negates all the hassle of navigating web sites that often flummox new folks to them and lets you decide which trains to take once there - fully flexible - no such thing as missing a train and having your ticket invalidated - first class fuly flexible to me at least is priceless so also price vs full fare first class tickets if it to you too.

Cheapest possible seems to be the mantra on Fodor's - folks only touting the discounted tickets and never also telling of their many restrictions and the hassle many have booking them. Now of course if only taking a few trips a railpass is not a good deal but for several longer trips in various countries it well can be.

bvlenci

FrenchMystique, that's very interesting. It doesn't appear on my version of the page. I was being facetious, but it appears to be true that they don't sell Trenitalia tickets to Italians, so they don't show us the logo.

Kybourbon, just below the main banner (with the Tower of Pisa, wine glass, etc.) there should be a little box with USD. If you press it, you should get a choice of currencies. I gave my location as USA to see if it would still let me use euros, and it did. But maybe they go by my IP address?

Palenq, in Italy all except regional trains need reservations, and buying one in the station is a much bigger hassle than buying a ticket, because you can't use the machines. In France there are limits on the numbers of passholders who can ride on some trains, and TGV trains have mandatory reservations. Maybe 30 years ago a pass allowed you to hop on whichever train you pleased, but those days are gone.

PalenQ

Maybe 30 years ago a pass allowed you to hop on whichever train you pleased, but those days are gone.>

When I saw hop on any train I mean in countries where that is possible - most of Europe but for Italy I saw flexibility to chose which trains to take once there because with a pass I have never ever had any trouble making the requisite seat reservation once in a town I will leave later. Ditto for France except on a few key TGV lines like to Avignon from Paris it may not be possible to get a seat reservation always because there is an allotment.

I certainly do understand all that. And if I said hop on any train anytime I should clarify except for a handful of countries where it is usually easy to get the required seat reservation or in case of Italy 10 euro supplement that includes a reservations.

FrenchMystiqueTours

Interesting bvlenci. I wonder why that is?

bvlenci

Probably they have an agreement with Trenitalia that they can sell their tickets outside of Italy, but not in Italy.

bvlenci

If it's easy to get train reservations in Italy, it's even easier (and cheaper) to just buy your tickets there.

Basically, what you're saying is that the rail pass is more flexible than point-to-point tickets, except when it's not.

The tickets we were talking about were in France and Italy, the two places where it's not. And the person who asked was taking just a few short trips and not on expensive trains. A rail pass would be ridiculous for a trip like this.

PalenQ

I agree with bvienci - I was making general remarks latter on here on railpasses - reacting to general statements but even the France-Italy Pass is a poor deal for the relatively few short trips they are taking.

<If it's easy to get train reservations in Italy, it's even easier (and cheaper) to just buy your tickets there>.

I disagree - they are exactly the same process - go up to a ticket window and get a reservation or buy tickets - same ticket window or same machines (though to be honest I'm not sure you can book railpass seats on the automatic machines in which case you would be right IF the machines took American c cards which I do not know but if you gotta wait in a line at a ticket window it's exactly the same for a pass seat as a ticket purchase IME.

dgkp

Thanks everyone! I think I've got the picture. Here's what I'm hearing...

- Buying individual tickets is going to be much more affordable than a pass. Though I'm still not 100% clear on:
1) whether my 2 children <14 yrs will get to ride for free with individual tix, or
2) if buying tix as we go when we get there will be more or less expensive than the pass. (I'm aware that buying well in advance is much cheaper, but I'm really not open to buying all of our tix too far in advance...maybe only for the legs that are fairly set in stone.)

- Buying a pass would be overkill price-wise and not really any easier work-wise than individual tix. (Unless someone tells me that my kids won't be free with individual tix, in which case the costs of pass vs tix might be more of a toss-up.)

- The cheapest option would be buying our tix months in advance, but that would throw spontaneity out the window.

Does that about cover it?

PalenQ

Yup!

kybourbon

>>>1) whether my 2 children <14 yrs will get to ride for free with individual tix, or<<<

Each country has it's own rules for it's own trains so that will depend on the country (the ages vary by country). You need to read the rules for each country you intend to travel through. Normally, on Trenitalia, only children under 4 are free, but they are currently running a promo (can/may change with the next schedules) that includes ages 4-14.

Your kids will not travel free with a pass. Any supplements in France or between countries along with mandatory seat purchases would still have to be paid.

International trains between countries will often have different rules based on the agreements those countries made with each other.

>>>2) if buying tix as we go when we get there will be more or less expensive than the pass. (I'm aware that buying well in advance is much cheaper, but I'm really not open to buying all of our tix too far in advance...maybe only for the legs that are fairly set in stone.)<<<

You aren't quite grasping the nature of regional trains. These are the slow trains that stop at all of the small towns (fast trains basically stop only at major cities). Day trips around Nice and day trips around Florence will be regional trains as the fast trains don't go to the small towns (there are a few exceptions). When you buy tickets for regional train tickets in advance online, they are restricted to a certain day you choose and a 4 hour travel window which you also choose). When you buy them in the country, they aren't.

>>>The cheapest option would be buying our tix months in advance<<<

No, it appears many of your trains will be regional trains. Those prices stay the same all the time. It would really help if you stated an actual itinerary so we could tell which trips are regional trains.

Example:

Florence/Pisa ticket online would be for June 20 10:00 am (8€ - there is no 1st class). You would have to travel within 4 hours.

Florence/Pisa ticket bought in June in Italy (8€) - You would have two months to use this ticket on any regional train on any day within that two months to travel from Florence to Pisa. Prices are the same for both as there are no discounts for regional trains and no seat reservations possible at all.

If you know your day trips you want while in Italy, you could buy all the regional trains upon your arrival in Italy. They would be good for two months so you can be entirely flexible.

FYI - Regional tickets that are not day/time specific must be validated trackside before boarding.

The only tickets that wouldn't be flexible bought in the country are for trains that require mandatory seats (all the fast trains in Italy and many international trains). They wouldn't be flexible with a pass either as you would still need reservations. These are always for a specific seat on a specific train.

PalenQ

Forget any notion of a railpass for your trips - cross it off forever.

bvlenci

Children aged 4-11 can get a free child Eurail pass when traveling with an adult, but even so, it would be cheaper, on your particular trip to buy tickets for all of the children, even buying at the last minute.

I just priced your trip with single tickets. I assume you would have four trips: Milan to Florence, Florence to Antibes, Antibes to Como, and Como to Milan. Since all of these trips, except the first and the last, involve a change of train in Milan, this is the same as three round trips: Milan-Florence-ilan, Milan-Antibes-Milan, and Milan-Como-Milan. That makes it easier to check the prices on the Trenitalia site.

To give you a worst-case scenario for the single tickets, on each route, I chose the most expensive train available, and I didn't accept any discounts, even if I found any still available for tomorrow morning. I came up with a total of €846 for the tickets for all five of you. For comparison, the cheapest 2nd class two-country pass for four days within two months, for a family with two children under age 12, and with the 15% discount was €792. (I don't know what it is in $US, but € is better for comparison with the Trenitalia prices.)

However, this Eurail pass doesn't include the seat reservations, which would be mandatory on some of the routes, and would add €60 to €120 to the cost of the pass, so even with the most expensive trains and with absolutely no discounts, the single tickets come out ahead.

There are some discounts that are usually available even at the last minute. One of these is called "Bimbi Gratis", which lets kids ride free. There are also usually 2-for-1 discounts for adults if they travel on the weekend, but maybe they can't be combined with Bimbi Gratis. When checking the prices for tomorrow morning, I found that on many trains Bimbi Gratis was available even at the last minute. In order to give you a worst-case scenario, I chose the undiscounted fare.

I also chose to do the Milan to Antibes route on the Thello train, which costs more than the alternative route, which would have you changing trains. I don't think the rail pass covers Thello trains; if not, that would be another factor against the pass, because the alternative would involve a series of train changes.

Finally, on the Milan to Como route, most of the trains were cheaper regional trains that took no longer than the more expensive EC train (which actually is an international train heading to Switzerland). I chose the EC train, again, to make the worst case for single tickets.

I think it's clear that you shouldn't buy the passes. My estimate of €836 is definitely on the high side for your trips, because at least on some trips, you'll probably take cheaper trains than those in my example. You can probably also find at least the Bimbi Gratis discount at the last minute, and maybe other discounts as well. Even buying a few days in advance increases your chance of finding discounts. Sometimes you find first class tickets or business class tickets at the price of second class, which doesn't save money, but gives you a bit of extra room. (I never buy first class tickets unless I can get them at the price of second class.)

You can check all these prices yourself on the Trenitalia web site:

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...005817f90aRCRD

Remember to use the Italian names for Milan (Milano) and Florence (Firenze). The stations you would want would be Milano Centrale and Firenze S. Maria Novella. For Como, I chose Como San Giovanni, which is the only town on the lake that has direct Trenitalia service. Some other towns on the lake are served by Trenord, which is a small regional rail line. Their tickets are very cheap, and I don't think the Eurail pass covers them.

Also, you can't use a rail pass for the train from Malpensa airport to Milano Centrale, which is the station you'd want to use if you're going to Florence. I didn't include this trip in my comparison for that reason. On your way from Lake Como to the airport, unless you want to go into Milan for some reason, you can probably get a cheaper train to Malpensa airport, which would be Trenord, which doesn't take a rail pass. This would make the single tickets cheaper, but wouldn't change the price of the pass, because four days is the least amount you can get a pass for.

dgkp

Thanks for the added clarifications, all. The only reason I considered passes at all was because children under 14 actually do now ride free with adults. (I believe this is a new offer by Eurail starting in 2015.) That and the 15% discount for traveling as a group of 5 with Eurail. On top of that, I seemed to find fairly conflicting price results on tickets, which made me nervous on what it would actually cost us once there. Seems clear to me from all of you that it is still more economical to pay for tickets.

For what it's worth, we'll stay in Florence (considering day trips to Pisa, San Gimignano, and/or possibly Venice if we're feeling really ambitious); Antibes (day trips to Nice and Monaco), and Como (considering day trips to Bellagio by ferry, possibly Balzano if we're feeling terribly ambitious - not counting on it, and/or possibly Locarno). Obviously this is a lot of possible day trips, so who knows how many of them we'll actually pull off once we're there, making point-to-point tickets even more common sense, I guess.

Earlier in the trip planning we were hoping to stay in the Swiss Alps instead of Como, but we changed our minds due to the high cost of lodging and the extra travel hours it would entail...in hindsight, the pass may have made more sense in that case than it does now that we're mostly staying in Italy. Maybe why I kept clinging to the Eurail of my distant memory...they beautiful, hassle-free pass that no longer exists.

Thanks again everyone!

bvlenci

DGKP, it doesn't matter, because your oldest child under age 14 is age 11, but when I was doing the comparison, it said on the France-Italy pass page that children ages 4-11 were eligible for a free pass to travel with their parents. Children under age 4 couldn't get this pass, because they can ride free anyway; however, they're not guaranteed a seat. Children over age 12 pay the youth price, which I think is the same as an adult 2nd class ticket.

The trip from Florence to Venice is one of the more expensive ones, but I don't think it would make any difference in the pass price comparison, because it's still cheaper than the Milan-Antibes ticket, which the pass doesn't cover. It would cost €270 round trip for all five of you, if you get the Bimbi Gratis discount. The other two trips are cheap. Pisa is reached by a cheap regional train, and San Gimignano is best reached by bus, with a change in Poggibonsi.

The town of Como is nothing special; I would suggest staying elsewhere on the lake.

dgkp

<<Since all of these trips, except the first and the last, involve a change of train in Milan, this is the same as three round trips: Milan-Florence-ilan, Milan-Antibes-Milan, and Milan-Como-Milan. That makes it easier to check the prices on the Trenitalia site.>>

bvlenci, I'm not really following this. You're saying that a round-trip ticket from Milan to Antibes and back to Milan is comparable in price to a one-way trip from Florence to Antibes? Sorry if this is really obvious and I'm missing it.

bvlenci

If it's confusing, just ignore the part about the round trips. It was only to make checking the prices easier.

What I'm saying is that all of your trips (except the day trips) pass through Milan. You'll leave Milan to go to Florence. Then to go to Antibes from there (or to Como from there), you'll take a train back to Milan (one round trip completed) and there change to a train to Antibes (or Como). Then to go from Antibes to Como, you'll once again have to go back to Milan (another round trip), and change trains there. So now, you've effectively made a round trip to Florence and a round trip to Antibes, starting in Milan. When you change trains in Milan to go to Como, you'll be making the first half of another round trip, which will end when you go back to Milan at the end of your trip. However, as I said before, if you go directly to the airport from Como, which should should do only if your flight is in the afternoon, this last one wouldn't really be a round trip.

It doesn't matter from the point of view of price; there's no discount for round trips on any of these routes. It's just easier to check the prices of three round trips. When you buy your tickets, don't buy round trip tickets if you don't know exactly when you'll be traveling. In other words, just buy a ticket from Florence to Antibes

dgkp

NOW I get it. Thanks for the explanation.