Churches and Cathedrals -- Looking to Learn More
Jun 2nd, 2005, 08:34 AM
#21
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I just looked at the World Heritage List in your first message.
I suspect that "Historic Centre of Rome" -- the first listing -- is a pretty blanket description of most of Rome and includes Foro Romano, Colosseo and Pantheon as well as other Roman ruins here and there in addition to all the other architectural periods represented in Rome.
I suspect that "Historic Centre of Rome" -- the first listing -- is a pretty blanket description of most of Rome and includes Foro Romano, Colosseo and Pantheon as well as other Roman ruins here and there in addition to all the other architectural periods represented in Rome.
Jun 2nd, 2005, 09:19 AM
#23
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Hi 111op. We just got back from a couple of weeks in Auvergne, where we spent some time looking at Romanesque churches. (I'm working on a trip report, which we'll post soon.) I have a couple of books that I have found very helpful in understanding Romanesque and Gothic architecture:
<i>Early Medieval Architecture</i> by Roger Stalley and <i>Medieval Architecture</i> by Nicola Coldstream. Both are published by the Oxford University Press. Both are also well illustrated.
Anselm
<i>Early Medieval Architecture</i> by Roger Stalley and <i>Medieval Architecture</i> by Nicola Coldstream. Both are published by the Oxford University Press. Both are also well illustrated.
Anselm
Jun 2nd, 2005, 02:26 PM
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111op -
<i>" Why does Chartres seem to be the most important? "</i>
I recently built and researched an exhibit for our local Children's Museum about "Structures - Around the World and Through Time", which described 60 different world structures, Chartres Cathedral among them. I spent a day researching just this building, and below is the final results, summed up in 2 paragraphs.
CHARTRES CATHEDRAL
1145, 1194 - 1220
Dedicated to the Virgin Mary, Chartres was the first cathedral to use flying
buttresses in the construction, and the first to be built completely in the
High Gothic style. When most of the original church burned in 1194, it was
immediately rebuilt by the citizens of the town in record time.
Along with its mismatched towers and copper roof, Chartres Cathedral is also
known for the 44 colorful stained-glass windows showing stories from the
Bible.
Thanks for the interesting thread. Peace.
Robyn
>-
<i>" Why does Chartres seem to be the most important? "</i>
I recently built and researched an exhibit for our local Children's Museum about "Structures - Around the World and Through Time", which described 60 different world structures, Chartres Cathedral among them. I spent a day researching just this building, and below is the final results, summed up in 2 paragraphs.
CHARTRES CATHEDRAL
1145, 1194 - 1220
Dedicated to the Virgin Mary, Chartres was the first cathedral to use flying
buttresses in the construction, and the first to be built completely in the
High Gothic style. When most of the original church burned in 1194, it was
immediately rebuilt by the citizens of the town in record time.
Along with its mismatched towers and copper roof, Chartres Cathedral is also
known for the 44 colorful stained-glass windows showing stories from the
Bible.
Thanks for the interesting thread. Peace.
Robyn
>-
Jun 2nd, 2005, 02:39 PM
#26
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Thanks, Robyn!
That sounds like really interesting exhibition. Do you have your top 3-5 of the 60 structures? Curious to know what they are. Also, which one was the most modern of the 60? Which one was the oldest of the 60?
I see the terms "flying buttresses" and "ribbed vaults" at lot, but I still don't think that I know what they are.
I'm going to look at my trusty "Art of the Western World" tonight (it's the book that came with the PBS series, but I missed all the shows). I find it very good, and if I remember right, there's a chapter on Gothic architecture, which I've only skimmed before.
I'll start with that.
I've printed out the entire thread and I'll look at the book references later.
It's nice to learn a few things.
That sounds like really interesting exhibition. Do you have your top 3-5 of the 60 structures? Curious to know what they are. Also, which one was the most modern of the 60? Which one was the oldest of the 60?
I see the terms "flying buttresses" and "ribbed vaults" at lot, but I still don't think that I know what they are.
I'm going to look at my trusty "Art of the Western World" tonight (it's the book that came with the PBS series, but I missed all the shows). I find it very good, and if I remember right, there's a chapter on Gothic architecture, which I've only skimmed before.
I'll start with that.
I've printed out the entire thread and I'll look at the book references later.
It's nice to learn a few things.
Jun 2nd, 2005, 03:04 PM
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Why isn't St Paul's on UNESCO's list?
Well, here's the conspiracy theory explanation. Westminster Abbey and the two UNESCO-endorsed cathedrals were built when they were major churches in an international organisation. Indeed both Durham and Canterbury were significant parts of the process which brought England's idiosyncratic version of Christianity under Rome's control. They, like Westminster Abbey, were designed by architects who were building churches similar to what was being built elsewhere in Europe.
St Paul's, as it now is, was built by an independent national church. Its architect had virtually no influence outside England (except of course in parts of the US). Its cultural highpoint was when it was THE icon for Britain's refusal to surrender to the evil that had taken over most of the rest of Europe.
Can you think of anything that would piss off the (Paris-based) UNESCO bureaucrats more? The list, after all, includes such crucial parts of the world's heritage as the Turkmenistan national park. Clearly more important than trivia like Runnymede or Gettysburg, whose legacies to the world might actually be taken seriously if they're given too much attention.
And how would that go down in Paris?
Well, here's the conspiracy theory explanation. Westminster Abbey and the two UNESCO-endorsed cathedrals were built when they were major churches in an international organisation. Indeed both Durham and Canterbury were significant parts of the process which brought England's idiosyncratic version of Christianity under Rome's control. They, like Westminster Abbey, were designed by architects who were building churches similar to what was being built elsewhere in Europe.
St Paul's, as it now is, was built by an independent national church. Its architect had virtually no influence outside England (except of course in parts of the US). Its cultural highpoint was when it was THE icon for Britain's refusal to surrender to the evil that had taken over most of the rest of Europe.
Can you think of anything that would piss off the (Paris-based) UNESCO bureaucrats more? The list, after all, includes such crucial parts of the world's heritage as the Turkmenistan national park. Clearly more important than trivia like Runnymede or Gettysburg, whose legacies to the world might actually be taken seriously if they're given too much attention.
And how would that go down in Paris?
Jun 2nd, 2005, 05:39 PM
#28
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111op -
Check out the following link for a list of the 60 buildings for the "Structures" exhibit.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34549198
The oldest structure is Stonehenge (-2750 - -1500), Salisbury, England, United Kingdom.
The newest structure is Millau Bridge (2001 - 2004), Millau, France.
I had a blast doing the research for the exhibit. If you're ever in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, stop by the Children's Museum for a look around. Partially as a result of my display, I ended up getting a job with the Museum 7 weeks ago, as their Exhibit's Manager! What a great job I have. Peace.
Robyn>-
Check out the following link for a list of the 60 buildings for the "Structures" exhibit.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34549198
The oldest structure is Stonehenge (-2750 - -1500), Salisbury, England, United Kingdom.
The newest structure is Millau Bridge (2001 - 2004), Millau, France.
I had a blast doing the research for the exhibit. If you're ever in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, stop by the Children's Museum for a look around. Partially as a result of my display, I ended up getting a job with the Museum 7 weeks ago, as their Exhibit's Manager! What a great job I have. Peace.
Robyn
>-
Jun 2nd, 2005, 05:57 PM
#29
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Do you know why York minster isn't on the Unesco's UK list?
I think Blue Guide and green Michelin guidebooks usually have pretty detailed info about architecture.
I vaguely remember long ago (before you were born) reading some interesting historical account of the building of a French gothic cathedral, but I don't remember who the author was or which cathedral it was about. Oh well.
I think Blue Guide and green Michelin guidebooks usually have pretty detailed info about architecture.
I vaguely remember long ago (before you were born) reading some interesting historical account of the building of a French gothic cathedral, but I don't remember who the author was or which cathedral it was about. Oh well.
Jun 3rd, 2005, 12:53 AM
#30
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I have a wonderful book (originally read about it on this forum)
called the Oxford Guide to Christian Art and Architecture.
It's too big to travel with, but a wonderful reference, almost a small encyclopedia.
David Macaulay's book 'Cathedral'--cmt, is that the book you are thinking of?
called the Oxford Guide to Christian Art and Architecture.
It's too big to travel with, but a wonderful reference, almost a small encyclopedia.
David Macaulay's book 'Cathedral'--cmt, is that the book you are thinking of?
Jun 3rd, 2005, 03:09 AM
#31
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Thanks, Robyn, for typing up that whole list. I'm of course very interested to see it (but didn't expect you to type the whole thing up).
I've obviously no idea how Unesco comes up with their list of World Heritage sites. It's always seemed a bit idiosyncratic to me -- but I guess it's true of any list (why is this one on or that one not, etc.?).
Take a look at the US vs. UK lists, for example. The first sites from the US are national parks (Masa Verde + Yellowstone) and were 2 of the first 12, and even Independence Hall got added in 1979. But the UK didn't even get anything on the list until 1986.
As you know, I just came back from Scandinavia and I spent some time (albeit very little) at Skogskyrkogarden. This cemetery got on the Unesco list in 1994. It was an interesting visit, but it's obviously not something that a tourist would necessarily visit (Michelin gives it no stars).
I've a copy of "45 idées de week-end aux environs de Paris" (from Michelin) and was flipping through it last night. It seems to cover Chartres in the greatest detail (and it covers Reims, cathedrals around Soissons, Bourges, Amiens and I'm sure that there're a few I'm missing). It will probably take me an hour to read one page since I'll need to use the dictionary a lot, but it'll be fun.
I also took a look at "Art of the Western World" last night, and it indeed has a chapter on Gothic architecture, but it doesn't define any of the technical terms.
There's, however, an interesting discussion of two pairs of sculptures at the Reims cathedral (Visitation, which appeared to have been completed a decade earlier than Annunciation). An argument was made that the Annunciation angels are more humanistic (or realistic).
If you're curious, take a look at this:
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hart205/.../images/54.gif
It's not a very good picture -- but contrast the two on the left with the ones on the right. I actually had the reverse reaction compared to the book.
Anyway I think that I'll need to take a look at some of the books suggested in this thread to learn some technical vocabulary.
I've obviously no idea how Unesco comes up with their list of World Heritage sites. It's always seemed a bit idiosyncratic to me -- but I guess it's true of any list (why is this one on or that one not, etc.?).
Take a look at the US vs. UK lists, for example. The first sites from the US are national parks (Masa Verde + Yellowstone) and were 2 of the first 12, and even Independence Hall got added in 1979. But the UK didn't even get anything on the list until 1986.
As you know, I just came back from Scandinavia and I spent some time (albeit very little) at Skogskyrkogarden. This cemetery got on the Unesco list in 1994. It was an interesting visit, but it's obviously not something that a tourist would necessarily visit (Michelin gives it no stars).
I've a copy of "45 idées de week-end aux environs de Paris" (from Michelin) and was flipping through it last night. It seems to cover Chartres in the greatest detail (and it covers Reims, cathedrals around Soissons, Bourges, Amiens and I'm sure that there're a few I'm missing). It will probably take me an hour to read one page since I'll need to use the dictionary a lot, but it'll be fun.
I also took a look at "Art of the Western World" last night, and it indeed has a chapter on Gothic architecture, but it doesn't define any of the technical terms.
There's, however, an interesting discussion of two pairs of sculptures at the Reims cathedral (Visitation, which appeared to have been completed a decade earlier than Annunciation). An argument was made that the Annunciation angels are more humanistic (or realistic).
If you're curious, take a look at this:
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hart205/.../images/54.gif
It's not a very good picture -- but contrast the two on the left with the ones on the right. I actually had the reverse reaction compared to the book.
Anyway I think that I'll need to take a look at some of the books suggested in this thread to learn some technical vocabulary.
Jun 3rd, 2005, 04:40 AM
#33
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This is a flying buttress:
http://www.pitt.edu/~medart/menuglossary/flier.htm
It's so much easier to have a picture.
That whole glossary is very useful.
http://www.pitt.edu/~medart/menuglossary/flier.htm
It's so much easier to have a picture.
That whole glossary is very useful.
Jun 3rd, 2005, 04:53 AM
#34
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Another nice link here:
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/19991020.html
Look at the embedded link for virtual tours to great cathedrals.
Columbia sponsors a link on the Amiens cathedral here:
http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/Mcahweb/index-frame.html
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/19991020.html
Look at the embedded link for virtual tours to great cathedrals.
Columbia sponsors a link on the Amiens cathedral here:
http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/Mcahweb/index-frame.html
Jun 14th, 2005, 02:22 PM
#35
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In case anyone reads this thread in the future....
Apparently it's now possible to watch the Art of the Western World online. I just watched episode 2, and it's quite interesting. I highly recommend this program (about an hour) -- it's split equally between the Romanesque and the Gothic styles.
This is where you get the program:
http://www.learner.org/resources/series1.html
I summarized the episode on my blog.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2731334B
Apparently it's now possible to watch the Art of the Western World online. I just watched episode 2, and it's quite interesting. I highly recommend this program (about an hour) -- it's split equally between the Romanesque and the Gothic styles.
This is where you get the program:
http://www.learner.org/resources/series1.html
I summarized the episode on my blog.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2731334B
Jun 14th, 2005, 02:28 PM
#36
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By the way, Anselm, I saw the Nicola Goldstream OUP book in B&N. I flipped through it quickly, but I decided not to get it for now. I found it very interesting.
I own another OUP book in that series (on Modern Art). It looks like a really nice series.
As I mentioned in another thread, B&N and Borders seem to be lacking in books on cathedrals (or maybe I didn't try hard enough). I found another massive coffee table book, which I took home and read for a few days (and I then returned).
I've not really systematically tracked down everyone's recommendations, but I think that I've learned enough from surfing and from browsing for now. I still need to think about whether I'll really go visit some of these places in July.
I own another OUP book in that series (on Modern Art). It looks like a really nice series.
As I mentioned in another thread, B&N and Borders seem to be lacking in books on cathedrals (or maybe I didn't try hard enough). I found another massive coffee table book, which I took home and read for a few days (and I then returned).
I've not really systematically tracked down everyone's recommendations, but I think that I've learned enough from surfing and from browsing for now. I still need to think about whether I'll really go visit some of these places in July.
Jun 14th, 2005, 06:58 PM
#37
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I don't think you find special interest books like that so much in a mass-market store like Borders in the US. I have seen some books on cathedral archiecture in some bookstores in Paris when I was looking, some were nice quality paperbacks, and some for special styles.
I do agree with the suggestion of Michelin Greenguides, they always have several pages on architectural styles and terms in the front. It is very useful.
As for UNESCO, I don't think it's just an honor that is conferred for important sites. I'm not sure, but I think a country has to nominate a place for one thing, and then it seems to be related to wanting funding for renovations or something, and perhaps some rules and oversight. It isn't just a list of important places. I don't think Notre Dame Cathedral is on it, either, is it?
I do agree with the suggestion of Michelin Greenguides, they always have several pages on architectural styles and terms in the front. It is very useful.
As for UNESCO, I don't think it's just an honor that is conferred for important sites. I'm not sure, but I think a country has to nominate a place for one thing, and then it seems to be related to wanting funding for renovations or something, and perhaps some rules and oversight. It isn't just a list of important places. I don't think Notre Dame Cathedral is on it, either, is it?
Jun 15th, 2005, 03:06 AM
#39
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Notre Dame is on the Unesco list -- it's covered by the provisions on the banks of the Seine (which includes the Ste-Chapelle). I think that there're various provisions for inscription, but I'm not sure what the rules are exactly.
Actually the Monum series is quite good. I've one on Ste-Chapelle, which describes all the stained glass windows in detail. I'll probably try to look for one on Chartres if I can find the time in Paris. There's a bookstore in Hotel Sully.
The Monum series also has the benefit of being quite tiny (I also bought the ones on Villa Savoye, Carcassonne and Chambord, even though I've not been to the last two).
Actually the Monum series is quite good. I've one on Ste-Chapelle, which describes all the stained glass windows in detail. I'll probably try to look for one on Chartres if I can find the time in Paris. There's a bookstore in Hotel Sully.
The Monum series also has the benefit of being quite tiny (I also bought the ones on Villa Savoye, Carcassonne and Chambord, even though I've not been to the last two).
Jun 15th, 2005, 03:11 AM
#40
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More on monum:
http://www.monum.fr/prehome/prehome.dml
But this covers the monuments in France only, obviously.
http://www.monum.fr/prehome/prehome.dml
But this covers the monuments in France only, obviously.
