111op

I think that this is something I should learn a little more, and a possibility is to look at some on my next trip.

What are the good links and references? Would prefer web links.

Out of curiosity I took a look at the Unesco list:

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/2004/WHList2004-e.pdf

Here's a selection (not complete) -- (in parentheses are the years that the sites were added to the Unesco list).

France

Mont-St-Michel (1979)
Chartres (1979)
Amiens (1981)
Banks of Seine (1991 -- includes Notre-Dame and Ste-Chapelle)
Reims (1991)
Bourges (1992)

Missing: Rouen (?), St.-Denis (?)

UK

Durham (1986)
Westminster (1987)
Canterbury (1988)

Missing: St. Paul's (?)

What're the most important cathedrals and churches near Paris and London? Why does Chartres seem to be the most important?

Comments, suggestions?

Thanks.

111op

This looks a pretty good link on the Gothic style -- I'll print it out to read for later:

http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encycloped...hitecture.html

111op

Another good one -- Romanesque vs. Gothic styles:

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hart205/Cathedrals/

jsmith

111op, this topic has been done many times. I hate to say it but I will, do a search. There is at least one post asking for favorite cathedrals.

111op

But architecturally?

I didn't know what a ribbed vault was (I still don't think that I know what it is). Neither did I know that Gothic cathedrals became possible (taller) because of the architectural innovations.

But I admit that it's probably my ignorance.

I'll search on this forum and see what I can find.

Eloise

If you really want to go into the subject, this looks as if it might cover the subject pretty thoroughly:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...s&n=507846

Mind you, the one reviewer, an architecture student (or professor? I doubt it...) didn't like it.

Chartres Cathedral's importance stems in large part from its magnificent stained glass windows, in particular, the rose window.

111op

I'll take a look at your link, Eloise, thanks.

If it's not evident from my posts here, if I want to know something, I really want to know.

Is it true that the Reims windows are not original? I seem to have read this somewhere in a random link I pulled up earlier.

Here're some old Fodors threads -- feel free to add more. Thanks.

<b> Chartres/Reims </b>:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34586946

<b> Greatest Cathedrals </b>:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...&amp;tid=57555

<b> Protestant/Catholic </b>:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34486294

flanneruk

We'll - let's hope - get lots of suggestions for favourite churches.

But if, as your last message implied, you're interested in how great churches come to be what they are,get hold of &quot;How to Read a Church&quot; by Richard Taylor. It gives all the basic information on the difference between a clerestory and a chancel, how Gothic leads to Perpendicular and why that saint always has a wheel in her pictures. Now in paperback.

It's a bit England-centric. But most of the great English and French churches were built at a time when they shared architects and a lot more, so it's pretty useful in France, or at any rate in Northern France.

Why doesn't UNESCO include St Paul's? Probably because it's proudly English. Doesn't tick the right PC boxes these days.

jsmith

I'm sure others will recommend appropriate books (I'll look for flanneruk's suggestion) but you could start with:

Churches, Judith Dupre -
Magnificent photos and complementary text - this is a coffee-table book &quot;extraordinari&quot;.

England's Thousand Best Churches,
Simon Jenkins - pretty self explanatory

Churches and Cathedrals of London, Stephen Humphrey - photos and text

Cathedrals and Castles Building in the Middle Ages, Alain Erlande-Brandenburg - ISBN for this is 0-8109-2813-4, pocket size paperback, less then $15, photos, drawings, etc and a list of 31 great cathedrals. A great starting point.

111op

Looks like the book you suggested and the one Eloise suggested are exactly what I need. Thanks.

Maybe after doing my homework I can finally appreciate what I'm seeing.

This is the Amazon link to the Taylor book, by the way:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...s&amp;n=507846

111op

Thanks jsmith. I just saw your subsequent post.

Intrepid1

Does that mean that Durham Cathedral which <b> is </b> a UNESCO site isn't as &quot;proudly&quot; English as St. Paul's or is the former simply more deserving?

111op

This has nothing to do with this thread really -- but World Heritage sites trivia:

http://www.worldheritagesite.org/trivia.html

I've not been to any of the first 12 sites -- not even the ones in the US.

Maybe I need to rethink future travel plans.

111op

By the way, this is the tentative list for future Unesco inclusions:

http://www.worldheritagesite.org/alltentative.html

You'll see that Rouen and St.-Denis are on this list, but St. Paul's is still not.

Did I miss St. Paul's somehow?

Eloise

Come to think of it, 111op, I don't think I've ever seen a trip report from you from Italy...

In addition to leading the World Heritage site list, Italy also leads the UNESCO list, according to which -- if I recall correctly -- approx. 60% to 70% of the world's cultural heritage is in Italy.

You obviously researched Dutch and Flemish painting quite thoroughly before your Holland/Belgium trip.
If you put similar research into Italian painting and Italian church architecture, it will pay you huge dividends, I think. But bear in mind that art and architecture in Italy extends over a period of over 2000 years, much longer than the &quot;Golden Age&quot; of Holland or Flanders.

In my opinion, it's pretty pointless to visit churches and museums if you don't know what your looking at, but that is the kind of incendiary remark that will get me flamed...

Eloise

Good grief, I've really put my foot in it now!

The &quot;spelling police&quot; will have at me for the &quot;your&quot; instead of &quot;you're&quot;, while the populists will have at me for suggesting that it's better to know something than not to know it.

111op

Well, I made my Italy trip in 1999, pre-Fodors addiction, probably pre-OCD also (back then it was a different sort of OCD, I think).

It's funny you mentioned Italy. I was just looking at the list again -- there was nothing in Rome on that list. Was I blind? No Roman Forum? No Colosseum, etc.? Earliest inscription was &quot;Rock Drawings in Valcamonica&quot; (1979), then &quot;Last Supper&quot; (1980), then &quot;Florence&quot; (1982).

I've been wanting to visit Italy again. I considered going in the long weekend in February, but tickets were more expensive than BRU/CDG, so I didn't go, and it'd take longer also.

Anyway, Eurostar to Paris to shop before the shops close at 7, then Chartres on Sunday (and I guess more churches in Paris?) and then more God on Monday in London and then more shopping -- could be a winner.

It covers the loftiest and the basest.

I see a trip to Poland in the works (Kracow (sp?) was one of the first 12 to get on the list).

111op

By the way, apparently more people are reading my trip reports than I was thinking -- leave comments (as long as they're not nasty ).

NorthShore

Here are a few to try:

http://www.cityoflondonchurches.com/index.htm

http://www.london-city-churches.org.uk/

http://www.walks.com/index.aspx?PageId=11#106

111op

I'll look at your links, NorthShore.

Anyway, I stand corrected -- there's an entry for &quot;Holy See and Italy,&quot; which includes &quot;historic center of Rome.&quot; (1980-90).