Chip + Pin Credit Card
Jan 26th, 2015, 09:43 PM
#24
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The banking industry is supposed to convert to all chip and PIN or chip and signature cards by October 2015. The chip reading machines have appeared everywhere; at all major retailers. Most all banks have committed to chip and signature cards rather that chip and pin except a few. UNFCU has and USAA had a true chip and PIN card but both charge 1% foreign transaction fee (FTF).
One of the reason why US banks are avoiding chip and PIN cards is quite simple, they want their cards to be used. With current estimates that many of us have 6 to 12 credit cards in our wallets, few of us would be able to remember that many 4 digit codes. Some banks would lose business and customers who pay enormous amounts of interest on unpaid balances.
There are a few banks issuing cards with no annual fee and no FTF which will allow you to use a PIN for kiosk purchases such as for métro tickets and at unattended gas pumps. PenFed is one such card and I believe that Andrews and possibly Schwab are others. However, virtually all of the other chip and PIN/signature cards issued by US banks will default to a required signature when they are used in restaurants, department stores, and hotels in Europe.
It should be noted that Wallmart has installed PIN reading machines in almost all of their US retail stores and will generally accept purchases made with a PIN if your card is so capable.
One of the reason why US banks are avoiding chip and PIN cards is quite simple, they want their cards to be used. With current estimates that many of us have 6 to 12 credit cards in our wallets, few of us would be able to remember that many 4 digit codes. Some banks would lose business and customers who pay enormous amounts of interest on unpaid balances.
There are a few banks issuing cards with no annual fee and no FTF which will allow you to use a PIN for kiosk purchases such as for métro tickets and at unattended gas pumps. PenFed is one such card and I believe that Andrews and possibly Schwab are others. However, virtually all of the other chip and PIN/signature cards issued by US banks will default to a required signature when they are used in restaurants, department stores, and hotels in Europe.
It should be noted that Wallmart has installed PIN reading machines in almost all of their US retail stores and will generally accept purchases made with a PIN if your card is so capable.
Jan 27th, 2015, 01:29 AM
#25
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"With current estimates that many of us have 6 to 12 credit cards in our wallets, few of us would be able to remember that many 4 digit codes."
Living in the U.K., I have 5 cards, all with chips, and requiring a pin to use. I have set them to all use the same four-digit pin. That is not recommended, but it is better than forgetting the numbers or writing them down. Nobody finding or stealing my cards would know they all used the same pin, or could work out what the pin was. If they tried more than a handful of the 10,000 possible pins, they would be shut out of the system.
Presumably, in the U.S. people use the same signature on every card. They also helpfully write them on the back of the card, so that a thief would know what to write, although in my experience nobody in the U.S. checks signatures anyway.
Anyone who has introduced a new technology knows that there will always be objections, and in particular it will be stated that local circumstances are different so what has worked elsewhere will not work here. Some of those objections may be valid, but it is unlikely that a system that is working well in most of the rest of the world will be inappropriate or too difficult for the folks in Kansas.
Living in the U.K., I have 5 cards, all with chips, and requiring a pin to use. I have set them to all use the same four-digit pin. That is not recommended, but it is better than forgetting the numbers or writing them down. Nobody finding or stealing my cards would know they all used the same pin, or could work out what the pin was. If they tried more than a handful of the 10,000 possible pins, they would be shut out of the system.
Presumably, in the U.S. people use the same signature on every card. They also helpfully write them on the back of the card, so that a thief would know what to write, although in my experience nobody in the U.S. checks signatures anyway.
Anyone who has introduced a new technology knows that there will always be objections, and in particular it will be stated that local circumstances are different so what has worked elsewhere will not work here. Some of those objections may be valid, but it is unlikely that a system that is working well in most of the rest of the world will be inappropriate or too difficult for the folks in Kansas.
Jan 27th, 2015, 02:20 AM
#26
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The folks in Kansas are not deciding what format credit cards will use when issued. That decision is being made by the banks and the majority of banks, rightly or wrongly, are not taking the chance that their cards will not be used simply because the holder cannot remember the PIN.
Hence, users in the US will see newly issued cards having chips but will not see wide use of PINs for some time, if ever.
The EMV card system is not perfect and has security issues:
http://threatpost.com/researchers-fi...rotocol/106228
Technology has improved since the introduction of the EMV protocol and many in the US see it as a stop-gap solution at best. With the adoption of purchasing solutions such as Apple pay and others, the real future in secure purchasing may not be chip and PIN cards.
Hence, users in the US will see newly issued cards having chips but will not see wide use of PINs for some time, if ever.
The EMV card system is not perfect and has security issues:
http://threatpost.com/researchers-fi...rotocol/106228
Technology has improved since the introduction of the EMV protocol and many in the US see it as a stop-gap solution at best. With the adoption of purchasing solutions such as Apple pay and others, the real future in secure purchasing may not be chip and PIN cards.
Jan 27th, 2015, 03:04 AM
#27
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Yes, I remember that sort of objection on a number of occasions. "I've spotted a possible problem, so let's wait for a totally different solution."
It's called letting the best be the enemy of the good. You haven't got a worked-out better solution, but you'll wait anyway. In the meantime, you stick with the option of signature which anyone can forge, and which is seldom checked.
So often, the real objection is that it wasn't invented here, and that other people's experience is irrelevant. That's not unique to the United States, but is just common human behaviour. For example, is there any evidence, from anywhere in the world, that card use has declined after chip & pin was introduced? Is it not just as likely that a more secure system, which enables more self-service situations, will encourage greater card use?
It's called letting the best be the enemy of the good. You haven't got a worked-out better solution, but you'll wait anyway. In the meantime, you stick with the option of signature which anyone can forge, and which is seldom checked.
So often, the real objection is that it wasn't invented here, and that other people's experience is irrelevant. That's not unique to the United States, but is just common human behaviour. For example, is there any evidence, from anywhere in the world, that card use has declined after chip & pin was introduced? Is it not just as likely that a more secure system, which enables more self-service situations, will encourage greater card use?
Jan 27th, 2015, 05:36 AM
#29
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Before a recent trip to Canada I called USAA and asked for a chip and pin card. They will replace the old ones when requested. The card number remained the same--just a black card with the pin symbol rather than the blue card. There were three times in Victoria where I needed to use the pin card--you insert it at the bottom of the scanner. One other place took either a mag strip or a pin.
One thing to remember is that your debit card pin is not the same as a credit card pin--you need to set up two different accounts.
One thing to remember is that your debit card pin is not the same as a credit card pin--you need to set up two different accounts.
Jan 27th, 2015, 05:39 AM
#30
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We got a chip & pin Chase Sapphire Visa at least 3 years ago when we went to Spain. Need this point be an argument for the next 3 years herein?? Really. (TPAYT, again, my thanks for your Dordogne comments)
Jan 27th, 2015, 06:09 AM
#31
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Yes, it is a bit much when this same topic comes up over and over again, but many times it is started by a person new to Fodors and they aren't familiar with "how things work here."
Add in that the search function, even IF they tried to look for old posts, doesn't work. And there's always the idea that you never have to post on a thread if you don't want to do so.
Add in that the search function, even IF they tried to look for old posts, doesn't work. And there's always the idea that you never have to post on a thread if you don't want to do so.
Feb 27th, 2015, 08:33 AM
#32
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This argument has been ongoing both here and elsewhere regarding the direction the USA is going. The reality is the USA will, mostly at the insistence of Visa, going chip and signature for the vast vast majority of emv compliant cards. Many will have pin capabilities. However as part of this deal, visa is very insistent they will be working with merchants to make sure all cards are honored at all merchants as well as kiosks even if they lack a pin. They have insisted that it is the emv chip that supplies almost all of the enhanced security and that the problem of lost cards, the only time there is a problem with signature cards as opposed to pin cards is when the card is lost. (Don't shoot the messenger). MasterCard and Amex have been much more ambivalent about it.
Incidentally, for those of you not from the USA, the trend in the USA has been to not even bother with signatures for small purchases and rarely does a clerk check a signature on a credit card while at least in the UK, the clerks always go through the charade of looking at the signature even if they haven't the vaguest idea of what they are looking at.
Incidentally, for those of you not from the USA, the trend in the USA has been to not even bother with signatures for small purchases and rarely does a clerk check a signature on a credit card while at least in the UK, the clerks always go through the charade of looking at the signature even if they haven't the vaguest idea of what they are looking at.
Feb 28th, 2015, 07:54 AM
#33
AliceD---sorry to pop your bubble, but I doubt the card you got from Chase Sapphire Visa 3 years ago is, indeed, chip and pin.
I say this because last summer I made a big fuss with Chase about myu desire to drop my signature card and go elsewhere to get a chip and pin card for our September '14 trip; they sent me a replacement chip and signature card, saying that's all they had to give. They assured me it would work everywhere. Well, it didn't. Not at closed gas stations. Not at ANY toll road gate. It obviously worked at restaurants, etc., but I could see no difference in those environments than with the plain old signature card.
I think the theory that "the majority of banks, rightly or wrongly, are not taking the chance that their cards will not be used simply because the holder cannot remember the PIN." is totally bogus.
Why is it that those same dolts who would be unable to remember the PIN for a chip and PIN card can easily remember the PIN for their debit card?
I say this because last summer I made a big fuss with Chase about myu desire to drop my signature card and go elsewhere to get a chip and pin card for our September '14 trip; they sent me a replacement chip and signature card, saying that's all they had to give. They assured me it would work everywhere. Well, it didn't. Not at closed gas stations. Not at ANY toll road gate. It obviously worked at restaurants, etc., but I could see no difference in those environments than with the plain old signature card.
I think the theory that "the majority of banks, rightly or wrongly, are not taking the chance that their cards will not be used simply because the holder cannot remember the PIN." is totally bogus.
Why is it that those same dolts who would be unable to remember the PIN for a chip and PIN card can easily remember the PIN for their debit card?
Feb 28th, 2015, 01:22 PM
#37
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There are only a handful of chip and PIN cards available in the USA. The vast majority of the chip cards issued in the US default to chip and signature and only some of those will allow payment at unattended locations with a PIN.
UNFCU, Navy FCU, and older USAA MC cards are a few financial institutions issuing chip and PIN cards. All transactions with these cards will be completed using only the PIN. For almost any other US issued EMV card, the default transaction will be completed with a signature only.
UNFCU, Navy FCU, and older USAA MC cards are a few financial institutions issuing chip and PIN cards. All transactions with these cards will be completed using only the PIN. For almost any other US issued EMV card, the default transaction will be completed with a signature only.
Feb 28th, 2015, 02:52 PM
#39
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...well if that's so, out come the old embossing machines with carbon paper receipts although according to Capital One, merchants always have the option of manually entering the information into their terminals. To the best of my limited knowledge, most credit cards, even those issued in Europe, do continue to have the magnetic strip for use in backward countries which have not left the Stone Age in credit card processing; I can think of one such country.
Feb 28th, 2015, 02:56 PM
#40
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sarastro...it's a two way street. There are very few merchants, as a matter of fact next to none, who have activated their new terminals capable of processing emv transactions and most refuse to use pins anyway. Only Walmart as a national chain has really juiced up their emv terminals but even there, because of some problems in implementation, customers can and often do bypass the emv security feature which supposedly prohibits a magnetic strip transaction if the card has an emv chip. This has troubled some people as it sort of defeats the purpose of the emv chip.
