Chip & Pin Only

Dec 17th, 2013, 04:37 AM
Join Date: Apr 2006
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You should know by now that there are three topics that twist knickers and attract trolls: tips, chips and quips.
Josser is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 05:40 AM
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I have the Marriott Rewards Premier card listed in the article dulcias posted the link to. The article says its a chip and pin, but it's not. It's a chip and signature. The BA card is listed as being chip and pin but if you go to the details, it says chip and signature.
dreaming is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 06:01 AM
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I don't have either card, but I bet that the Marriott card and the BA card that I am continuously being offered in the U.K. are chip and pin. Just as the British MBNA card that I have (MBNA being part of Bank of America) is fully equipped with both chip & pin and also wave & pay.
chartley is online now  
Dec 17th, 2013, 06:40 AM
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The U.S. BA card is issued by Chase, I'm pretty sure the Marriot card is also issued by Chase. As clearly as possible, as I said above, all credit cards issued by Chase in the USA are chip and signature. Period. Full Stop.

As we also said, all cards issued by UK banks, even those that are subsidiaries of US banks are chip and pin.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 06:41 AM
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Meant to say all credit cards issued by Chase with an emv chip, and not all Chase cards issued in the USA are emv cards, are chip and signature.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 06:50 AM
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Yes xyz123, I saw your post and was in agreement. Howveem the article that dulcias posted provided contradicting information, so I was attempting to point out that the article was flawed.
dreaming is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 08:29 AM
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I have also done fact checking on so called a long list of Chip and PIN cards and found out just by going to the bank sites are start reading what banks say they offer that nearly all of them are just Chip and Signature cards.

Why so much misinformation? I suspect financial and travel columnists obtain easily available list of "chip" cards somewhere and publish them without doing fact checking. Then posters at travel forums, such as this one, then also republish the same list without fact checking.

Even the famed AFB Chip and PIN card has limitations. None of the articles I have read talked about different Chip and PIN card capabilities. It appears, by synthesizing the actual experiences of people who have used AFB cards, it can do some kind of Chip and PIN but not others. It appears an AFB card requires an online validation. What appears to be needed at remote unattended POS terminals are Chip and PIN cards capable of doing offline validations. Because I have not read analysis by those who have access to insider info, this is just a guess.
greg is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 08:42 AM
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greg....if you go to the forum on flyertalk, you will find a thread of about 140 pages in length (yikes) dealing with emv cards issued in the USA. Somewhere buried in there are experiences people have had with Andrews visa credit cards. As I said, since I have used this card, at personneled pos locations, the card functions as chip and signature and if a merchant is convinced that he or she has additional liability when a pin is not used they will refuse to continue processing the charge and as I said there is no way of telling the terminal to process the transaction as chip and pin. But there have been reports the card does function at unpersonneled kiosks as chip and pin! So where does that card fall on the list? Chip and signature or chip and pin? That thread seems to have the best information of all I've read and that's generally where I pick up my information.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 09:27 AM
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I have an Andrews Federal Credit Union Chip and Pin credit card which I got last year.
Where it Worked: France-Train ticket machines (RER from airport, all other ‘regular’ train stations), Most parking machines (if they took credit cards at all), All gas stations (if manned I had to sign, unmanned enter code). Italy – all train ticket machines. Both France and Italy - stores/restaurants (but any American credit card worked in those).
Did Not Work: never worked in any of the many toll booths I went through in France.
Note: most machines for credit cards in Europe require that you insert your card and wait – what seems like a very long time for an American used to the ‘quick swipe’. Don’t take the card out till it tells you to.
isabel is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 09:40 AM
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Who cares which cards are chip and signature. Rather than getting lost in the trees, stand back and see the forest.

Chip and pin is the card a traveller should have. Period. Full stop xyz123. So rather than getting hung up on which bank, credit union, etc. DON'T offer PIN cards, why not spend your time suggesting which cards ARE chip and pin.

Greg, I agree there is a lot of misinformation out there and I'm not about to vet it all when I look for a link. I don't need to, I have chip and pin cards. The person looking to find a chip and pin card is the one who needs to do the due diligence.

I don't know why US providers are going to chip and signature, the only glimmer of a reason I can find is this, " While a traditional magnetic stripe card costs about $2 to deliver to customers, a chip card can cost $15 to $20, according to ROAM, which makes readers and software for secure processing. For merchants, mag card readers typically cost about $20 in volume purchases while a chip reader costs about $40; with a PIN keypad, it can run about $100. Signatures are easier for banks than PIN codes because they don’t require systems to manage the codes. Bank of America (NYSEAC) said it stuck with signatures because that’s what people are familiar with in the US, but that sounds pretty lame when you read about the hassles travelers go through in Europe. The bank did roll out chip and PIN cards to corporate clients in the US last year -- a year after it had issued them to corporate and commercial clients in Europe in 2011."
Read more:

The same article also offers this example: "One traveler recounted flying into Charles DeGaulle Airport and finding that the rail ticket machines required chip and PIN cards. The line at the only cashier taking magnetic swipe cards was a two-hour wait, so he jumped into a taxi and paid 60 euros to get to Paris rather than the 10 euros the train would have cost."

Does anyone want to argue they are happy waiting 2 hours to use their swipe card or pay 6 times as much for a taxi?

I find it amazing that any American traveller would want to try and argue they don't need one or try to lead people down red herring paths to avoid the whole point. A traveller without one MAY have problems and they can be avoided by having one. So why NOT get one?

Again, while the majority of Americans who do not travel need not worry about it, this is a travel forum and so the majority of those who are reading here are likely to travel. For travellers, there should be no question of whether they need one or not.

Go to this link and then click on the spreadsheet.
dulciusexasperis is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 10:53 AM
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I fly overseas every week for work and finally decided that I needed to get pin and chip credit cards. I got one from Chase bank that charges no international transaction fee. I then called my Citibank Visa card folks and have had a pin and chip card sent to me with my same account.
The problem that I have run into is buying things online for overseas such as airline and train tickets,etc.

TAP airline charged me $80 to buy tickets as I couldn't purchase them online due to their site not taking pin and chip cards-I did fight it and got the $80 back.
For those who think that the US shouldn't have to change and that the world should use our way-why can't we ever be on the same page? The rest of the world went metric and we still cannot join them-ridiculous!
dutyfree is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 11:17 AM
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I have offered the info of which card is chip and pin. And the answer is USAA mastercard. Almost all other USA credit cards with an emv chip are essentially chip and signature.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 11:29 AM
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dulciusexasperis...I know I responded several times. And I will repeat for the third or fourth time. The only true chip and pin card I know of is the mastercard issued by USAA. (Some banks may offer chip and pin cards for corporate clients, we're talking here about personal cards). The spreadsheet you refer to on flyer talk I believe shows that. Are there smaller banks and fcu's that do offer true chip and pin cards. Perhaps; I've missed them if so. The problem with USAA is that one requires some sort of affiliation with the US Armed Forces to join.

I never implied or meant to imply it is desirable to have a chip and pin card. The only thing that may be unclear, and if so I apologize, is whether Andrews, State Department and Penagon FCU credit cards are true chip and pin and I think I've responded to that.

I don't think there is one thing I've said that is out lf line with your thinking. And I agree with you. I find it hard to understand why the US banks have so embraced chip and signature which most USA, as a matter of fact almost all, US cards with emv chips are. If you want to criticize me, at least read the posts. I don't think I've said one thing different than what you just wrote or meant to imply.

I'll repeat. The only fairly sized bank I know of issuing true chip and pin cards in the USA is USAA but also be aware the card carries a 1% foreign transaction fee.

One can be critical and that's anybody's right. But at least be critical if something that has been said is untrue and I don't think anything I've said is untrue. You want to disagree, that's your perogative.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 04:03 PM
Join Date: Oct 2013
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It isn't the validity of what anyone has written that I am criticizing xyz123. What is annoying me is the time being spent on irrelevant points. Look at the Flyertalk link, USAA is NOT the only chip and pin card and there are some others which are chip and signature but also have chip and pin as a secondary priority that they will work with. What constitues a 'fair sized' bank, I have no idea but what is the relevance of whether an issuer is 'fair sized' or not? State department cards ARE available to the public contrary to what many may think. Do the research if you want one. But all of that is still not the issue.

From my perspective, any international traveller should be asking 2 questions.

1. Do I need 'chip and pin'? The answer to that provided by knowledgeable travellers should be YES. No maybes, no sometimes, a simple YES.

2. Where can I get one if I live in country X? The answer to that should be provided by knowledgeable travellers from the same country, who know who provides them. Not posts about who doesn't provide them.

Those are the ONLY TWO QUESTIONS that need to be discussed here really.

Dutyfree, do you actually have a PIN number for those cards or are they 'chip and signature' cards?

I can't understand your comment re TAP not taking your card online. You do not use the PIN when you make an online booking/purchase with a chip and pin card. The process is no different than with your old swipe and signature card.

If I book a flight online, I give my card number and expiry date along with the 3 digit security code on the back. That's it. I would NEVER give out my PIN number online and it is never asked for.

If I go to the TAP website and book a flight, they will take any of my cards, all of which are chip and pin.

The PIN doesn't come into online transactions. The PIN is only used in a card reader.

Again, a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding around this topic.
dulciusexasperis is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 04:35 PM
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All I did was lay out the question regarding Andrews, Pen Fed and State Department FCU's. It is not clear from the blogs how well they work as chip and pin. I'll leave it at that.

Name another US bank issuing chip and pin cards at this time that always function as chip and pin. But I agree if at all possible one should have a chip and pin card, we agree on that, and it is problematic just how effective chip and signature cards are. I'll let it go at that. I've made my points and am tired of arguing about it. You say you have several chip and pin cards. Are you from the USA? If so, tell us the banks so we can all avail.

(BTW, Diners Club one of the original up scale credit card companies was folded internationally into master cards several year ago. In North America, Diners Club has the mastercard logo on it and is offered by the Bank of Montreal and indeed is chip and pin so those who had Diners Club cards do have chip and pin. One small problem, though. Bank of Montreal at present is not offering Diners Club to new applicants in the United States. Also in theory Discover card which for the most part has been useless is supposed to be acceptd internationally at any merchant taking Diners Club (especially useful in CChina) and discover has announced plans to go emv in the near future though I'm not sure if it will be chip and pin or chip and signature.
xyz123 is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 05:06 PM
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>>Those are the ONLY TWO QUESTIONS that need to be discussed here really.<<

Well HE has spoken and that's that.

>>1. Do I need 'chip and pin'? The answer to that provided by knowledgeable travellers should be YES. No maybes, no sometimes, a simple YES.<<

Uh - no, one does not NEED a chip and PIN card. It would be nice if they were widely available to Americans, but they aren't. And millions of those Americans travel to Europe every year and manage just fine. Perfect? - no. But not a big deal.

>>2. Where can I get one if I live in country X? The answer to that should be provided by knowledgeable travellers from the same country, who know who provides them. Not posts about who doesn't provide them.<<

Again HE has spoken. The rest of us must not be knowledgeable. Jeeze louise - this is a place for discussion - not your mandate re what is acceptable to post and what isn't.
janisj is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 05:16 PM
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I will repeat for people who may be reading this to actually find useful information:

Andrews Federal Credit Union offers CHIP AND PIN (you get a PIN code!!!!). You do not need to be a member of the military. There is no foreign transaction fee.

Who cares if you have to sign occasionally. The point is it works in all those places where there is no human and where the 'regular' (American) swipe cards do not work.
isabel is offline  
Dec 17th, 2013, 05:30 PM
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>>2. Somebody brought up the Andrews card. While the Andrews card (as well as State Department and Pentagon_ FCU's do provide for chip and pin coverage in most (but not all) unpersonneled situations (they work sometimes and sometimes don't), the default at a personneled pos terminal is chip and signature. Thus in this case, if the merchant adamantly refuses to take chip and signature, even with the Andrews and the other FCU cards, the customer would be out of luck. There ia no way to force the Andrews card to be a chip and pin card in those situations and there have been a number of reports of merchants refusing to complete the transaction (the transaction does go through but it's the merchant who voids the transaction once and only after a receipt is printed and the terminal indicates signature required).<<
janisj is offline  
Dec 18th, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Agreed xyz123, the topic has gone beyond the ridiculous. Now janisj is back to 'you don't need one'.

When is the last time you tried to pump gas at an unattended gas station in France janisj? Or tried to buy a train ticket from an automated ticket machine in an anattended small town train station? Or tried to get a ticket from an automated ticket machine for a bus or subway in many European cities? Tell us how you 'manage just fine'.

You don't even have to leave the contintent to have a problem. Show up at the Chatham, Ontario train station in Canada today and you will find the station doors automatically open at 30 minutes before a train is due. You get your ticket from an automated machine that requires a chip and the station is unmanned. That is in a town of 100,000 people!

Let me ask you a simple question janisj. Do you have a chip and pin card? Let me guess. You don't. So you try your hardest to justify not having one rather than yelling like hell at your bank to get one. Stick your head deeper in the sand and ignore reality why don't you.

Ask yourself why your government's agencies are providing their employees and their families with chip and pin cards? Do you think it is because they don't think they are necessary?

As for your comments re chip and signature defaulting to chip and signature and merchants not completing the transaction, ask yourself why then are your banks issuing cards that will not work for their customer when they travel.

Don't just say they won't work and so there is no use getting one. No one is suggesting you get a chip and signature card, specifically because they won't always work.

However, even a chip and signature that has PIN as a secondary priority WILL work in automated machines and not ALL merchants will refuse to accept a signature. Some yes, all, no. So even a chip and signature is far better than swipe and signature.

Savvy travellers from the US are finding ways to get cards and anyone can, but those who persist in saying, 'I don't need one' are just being dumb.

I'm done with this topic. Those with a brain will find a way to get a card. Others will not.

xya123, my cards are from Canada, the UK, Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. None from the USA. Is it any wonder I don't have US cards. LOL

I'll give you a tip xzy123. Look for the Canadian banks operating in the US as potential issuers of chip and pin. Scotiabank, BMO and international banks like HSBC. Here is a presentation from Scotiabank on the subject.

What I find amusing in all of this is that many frequent travellers from the USA have quietly received letters offering them a 'free upgrade' to EMV cards from their US banks while the majority of the public have been kept in the dark. A two tier customer service it seems.
dulciusexasperis is offline  
Dec 18th, 2013, 09:17 PM
Original Poster
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"What I find amusing in all of this is that many frequent travellers from the USA have quietly received letters offering them a 'free upgrade' to EMV cards from their US banks while the majority of the public have been kept in the dark. A two tier customer service it seems."

Not quite so! American banks are not quite up to this level. Most are self-serving. One has to contact their bank(s) to see what is going on. Amex is the most forthcoming on all on events thus far. If you are one of the "elite" banking members (spending over $100,000/year, you do receive such offers, or at least some information, but not so the general public.
Robert2533 is offline  

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