Chip & Pin Only
Dec 22nd, 2013, 07:17 PM
#82
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" I have NEVER been a victim of credit card fraud in my life" your time is coming!
"But let's tell it like it is, 90% of all Americans are Red Necks anyway, they just don't think they are", definitely, your time is coming, and very soon indeed!!
"But let's tell it like it is, 90% of all Americans are Red Necks anyway, they just don't think they are", definitely, your time is coming, and very soon indeed!!
Dec 23rd, 2013, 01:25 AM
#83
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All the Americans I know are inky necks or dusty necks.
I tend to associate with teachers, academics and librarians and similar riff-raff.
I like the microchip under the skin. It could be done at birth. It could have your NHS number, National Insurance Number, parents' details etc. If your mouldering corpse were discovered, there'd be no deed to identify you by dental records.
I'm being silly. Canon Chasuble has been sent to pick up the turkey and other Christmas essentials.
A very merry Christmas, good will to all and a happy and peaceful New Year
I tend to associate with teachers, academics and librarians and similar riff-raff.
I like the microchip under the skin. It could be done at birth. It could have your NHS number, National Insurance Number, parents' details etc. If your mouldering corpse were discovered, there'd be no deed to identify you by dental records.
I'm being silly. Canon Chasuble has been sent to pick up the turkey and other Christmas essentials.
A very merry Christmas, good will to all and a happy and peaceful New Year
Dec 23rd, 2013, 02:15 AM
#84
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Credit card fraud is a wonderful thing.
It allows vermin to make money without violence and has a little direct effect on consumers. A tiny margin maybe added onto the whole retail process but it far less damaging to individuals in society than say burglary or car crime.
Direct violent theft is at an all time low in Britain, many deviants just attack the banks not individuals. As long as the crime rates are controlled, it's a lot better paying 0.01% more on your credit card rate than finding somebody stood over your bed with a knife.
It allows vermin to make money without violence and has a little direct effect on consumers. A tiny margin maybe added onto the whole retail process but it far less damaging to individuals in society than say burglary or car crime.
Direct violent theft is at an all time low in Britain, many deviants just attack the banks not individuals. As long as the crime rates are controlled, it's a lot better paying 0.01% more on your credit card rate than finding somebody stood over your bed with a knife.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 02:40 AM
#86
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You are never going to stop the vermin, just need to mange them.
It's way Western governments manage drugs, as long as mainstream voters are not effected then push it to one side. As soon as matter overspill as in Colombia or Sicily then the criminals are stamped on.
You don't change people, just manage them.
It's way Western governments manage drugs, as long as mainstream voters are not effected then push it to one side. As soon as matter overspill as in Colombia or Sicily then the criminals are stamped on.
You don't change people, just manage them.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:38 AM
#87
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Well it is finally happening with Visa in the USA 'encouraging' CHIP & PIN from 1st October 2015. I say encouraging as if US merchants do not introduce chip & pin machines from that date they will have a greater liability for fraud commited through the use of magnetic swipe cards. It is called the carrot and stick approach and is what happened in Europe, so expect merchants to rapidly comply to protect themselves!
What has also motivated card issuers towards the further introduction of chip & pin in the USA is the recent massive Target fraud where the magnetic card details of 40 million cardholders have been stolen. This type of fraud would not work with chip & pin cards.
The delay in introducing Chip & Pin in the USA was nothing to do with consumer resistance, but was a business decision taken by the major card issuers based solely on cost. However, magnetic card fraud in the USA has now become so expensive, with the USA being the destination of choice for fraudsters who have stolen cards abroad, that mastercard and visa have been forecast to act.
So it won't be compulsory, but merchants will be taking a finacial risk if they don't have chip and pin machines from 2015.
Also don't overlook that foreign tourism is massively important to the US economy and it would be disastrous if foreign tourists were unable to use their cards in the USA at a future date, if magnetic strips were removed from cards outside the US.
What has also motivated card issuers towards the further introduction of chip & pin in the USA is the recent massive Target fraud where the magnetic card details of 40 million cardholders have been stolen. This type of fraud would not work with chip & pin cards.
The delay in introducing Chip & Pin in the USA was nothing to do with consumer resistance, but was a business decision taken by the major card issuers based solely on cost. However, magnetic card fraud in the USA has now become so expensive, with the USA being the destination of choice for fraudsters who have stolen cards abroad, that mastercard and visa have been forecast to act.
So it won't be compulsory, but merchants will be taking a finacial risk if they don't have chip and pin machines from 2015.
Also don't overlook that foreign tourism is massively important to the US economy and it would be disastrous if foreign tourists were unable to use their cards in the USA at a future date, if magnetic strips were removed from cards outside the US.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 05:10 AM
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One point spongser...I am not sure the mandate is for chip and pin or simply emv chipped cards (or some other sort of chip). For whatever reason, some as phony as a $3 bill (we don't have any btw here) the banks claim chip and signature is more desirable from their bottom line view and throw out the absurdity that customers prefer signatures to pins.
This whole thread has been a bit about why chip and signature is a poor, very poor substitute for chip and pin. But indeed, chips are somewhat harder to clone than magnetic strips and one has little doubt that if and when chip and pin becomes the norm, the vermin will compromise the system just as they have with maagnetic strips.
Would chip and signature have worked to deter the Target thing? Not sure. Still one can only hope.
This whole thread has been a bit about why chip and signature is a poor, very poor substitute for chip and pin. But indeed, chips are somewhat harder to clone than magnetic strips and one has little doubt that if and when chip and pin becomes the norm, the vermin will compromise the system just as they have with maagnetic strips.
Would chip and signature have worked to deter the Target thing? Not sure. Still one can only hope.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 05:37 AM
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One thing I have noticed is the complete failure of retailers to monitor a chip and pin transaction. At least they watched and checked the signatures.
I lost my card 2 weeks ago and have been using my wife's PIN and card, same joint account. Nobody once has asked why I do not look like Mrs.....
The inference being that if vermin do find a way of cloning the card and PIN, then they would have a field day.
Incidentally, the only two occasions in 25 years that my card has suffered fraud have been following trips to the States both large value $10,000 plus Home Depot type purchases in The States ( a pick up truck, maybe).
I lost my card 2 weeks ago and have been using my wife's PIN and card, same joint account. Nobody once has asked why I do not look like Mrs.....
The inference being that if vermin do find a way of cloning the card and PIN, then they would have a field day.
Incidentally, the only two occasions in 25 years that my card has suffered fraud have been following trips to the States both large value $10,000 plus Home Depot type purchases in The States ( a pick up truck, maybe).
Dec 23rd, 2013, 06:37 AM
#91
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I would have thought that Visa, Mastercard and Amex who are American companies who dominate the global credit and debit card industry will want to use the same processing systems globally if at all possible, so it can all be offshored into one data and processing centre, in India probably! Don't forget the bottom line is king!
Dec 23rd, 2013, 11:59 AM
#92
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From my experience in the US, shops very rarely take my card from me to check the signature, so I could easily be using anyones. No wonder the US is the destination of choice to use for credit cards stolen outside the country.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 01:08 PM
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sprongster...You are quite right but then again, how much due diligence would you expect from a 16 year old at a check out counter? And then there is the issue of a cloned card where the person counterfeits a card from the stolen information and signs it.
Also many merchants in the USA do not bother with signatures at all for amounts under $50 say fast food places or even the grocery chain I use.
But most people are quite capable of forging a signature reasonably close that will not raise any alarms. Besides, an we always seem to come back to this, what good does any of it do for online purchases?
Also many merchants in the USA do not bother with signatures at all for amounts under $50 say fast food places or even the grocery chain I use.
But most people are quite capable of forging a signature reasonably close that will not raise any alarms. Besides, an we always seem to come back to this, what good does any of it do for online purchases?
Dec 23rd, 2013, 02:25 PM
#94
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This has been a most interesting thread!!! I could use some advice, though.
I think the Target fiasco is going to go a ways in encouraging better security in the US. It doesn’t appear that actual Target credit cards were affected. We were told by one employee that the system wasn’t hacked per se, but that an employee accessed the servers. How true this is, I don’t know.
As for the chip & PIN issue...my husband and I are going overseas (London and Paris) next year for the first time. We don’t do debit cards because, regardless of any limited liability, I do not want to have to “claw back” my money.
USAA: We DO have USAA (thanks, Dad!), so we can get an actual chip & PIN mastercard. But, as posted here and on their website, they charge 1% Foreign Transaction Fee. They also charge this on ATM cards.
CHASE: We’re also considering getting a Chase Sapphire Preferred card, which is “only” chip and signature, but has 0% FTF and a host of benefits. CSP cards have an annual fee, waived the first year. We thought we could charge the flight and larger costs to meet the minimum charges for rewards, even though we’re not really traveling enough to take full advantage of them.
ATM: We have Chase accounts (we like USAA, but we like having a local brick-and-mortar, too) with an ATM on the checking. I assume there’s an FTF on those--and that we’ll rack up some fees from the foreign banks’ for using their ATMs.
Help:
Any thoughts on these options? USAA or CSP or both?
And, since cash would be nice, any ideas on ATM cards? Stick with Chase or with USAA? And what ATMs are we better off using--at/inside banks?
Thanks in advance. I know someone here can advise me, so I can explain this all to my husband and sound quite informed.
I think the Target fiasco is going to go a ways in encouraging better security in the US. It doesn’t appear that actual Target credit cards were affected. We were told by one employee that the system wasn’t hacked per se, but that an employee accessed the servers. How true this is, I don’t know.
As for the chip & PIN issue...my husband and I are going overseas (London and Paris) next year for the first time. We don’t do debit cards because, regardless of any limited liability, I do not want to have to “claw back” my money.
USAA: We DO have USAA (thanks, Dad!), so we can get an actual chip & PIN mastercard. But, as posted here and on their website, they charge 1% Foreign Transaction Fee. They also charge this on ATM cards.
CHASE: We’re also considering getting a Chase Sapphire Preferred card, which is “only” chip and signature, but has 0% FTF and a host of benefits. CSP cards have an annual fee, waived the first year. We thought we could charge the flight and larger costs to meet the minimum charges for rewards, even though we’re not really traveling enough to take full advantage of them.
ATM: We have Chase accounts (we like USAA, but we like having a local brick-and-mortar, too) with an ATM on the checking. I assume there’s an FTF on those--and that we’ll rack up some fees from the foreign banks’ for using their ATMs.
Help:
Any thoughts on these options? USAA or CSP or both?
And, since cash would be nice, any ideas on ATM cards? Stick with Chase or with USAA? And what ATMs are we better off using--at/inside banks?
Thanks in advance. I know someone here can advise me, so I can explain this all to my husband and sound quite informed.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:15 PM
#95
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Easy questions with easy answers...
ATM: USAA all the way. USAA does not charge for cash withdrawals from foreign banks, Chase has a flat fee of I believe $3. In either case, the British or French bank will not charge you as long as you use a bank ATM not a privately owned one n a convenience store or a petrol station. USAA charges 1% foreign transaction fee; Chase 3%. USAA by a landslide.
Credit card...Well there's no problem in having 2 credit cards so first thing I would get the USAA mastercard which is chip and pin but that would be my secondary card. Now both London and Paris, despite the warnings you read in this thread, for the most part are used to dealing with Americans and their antiquated credit cards whether they are magnetic strip or chip and signature. My recommendation for a credit card, at least today, is Bank of America travel rewards. It is chip and signature, has a modest cash bonus program and no annual fee and no foreign transaction fee. In the very very unlikely event some merchant doesn't want to take it, then you have the USAA MC to fall back on!
ATM: USAA all the way. USAA does not charge for cash withdrawals from foreign banks, Chase has a flat fee of I believe $3. In either case, the British or French bank will not charge you as long as you use a bank ATM not a privately owned one n a convenience store or a petrol station. USAA charges 1% foreign transaction fee; Chase 3%. USAA by a landslide.
Credit card...Well there's no problem in having 2 credit cards so first thing I would get the USAA mastercard which is chip and pin but that would be my secondary card. Now both London and Paris, despite the warnings you read in this thread, for the most part are used to dealing with Americans and their antiquated credit cards whether they are magnetic strip or chip and signature. My recommendation for a credit card, at least today, is Bank of America travel rewards. It is chip and signature, has a modest cash bonus program and no annual fee and no foreign transaction fee. In the very very unlikely event some merchant doesn't want to take it, then you have the USAA MC to fall back on!
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:22 PM
#96
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Ooh, thanks! You were very informative through this thread.
I’m unclear on one thing...the cash withdrawal from foreign banks part. Do you mean that if we use a USAA ATM card at a bank ATM (not a private/third party ATM), there is no fee aside from the 1%? If that’s true, then hot damn! At least we won’t get (too) nickel-and-dimed!
So BofA and not Chase Sapphire. I’ve read positives on that. I suppose some want the Sapphire for the benefits. Looks like we’ll be leaving our AMEX cards at home and have to actually get USAA ATM cards that are tied to checking, not savings account, and apply for BofA. I’m pretty sure that won’t be a problem at all--assuming we don’t have to have an existing BofA account.
I’m unclear on one thing...the cash withdrawal from foreign banks part. Do you mean that if we use a USAA ATM card at a bank ATM (not a private/third party ATM), there is no fee aside from the 1%? If that’s true, then hot damn! At least we won’t get (too) nickel-and-dimed!
So BofA and not Chase Sapphire. I’ve read positives on that. I suppose some want the Sapphire for the benefits. Looks like we’ll be leaving our AMEX cards at home and have to actually get USAA ATM cards that are tied to checking, not savings account, and apply for BofA. I’m pretty sure that won’t be a problem at all--assuming we don’t have to have an existing BofA account.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:29 PM
#97
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Quite correct. USAA has no fee for withdrawals from foreign ATM's and as a matter of fact even in the USA will rebate the fees banks charge those customers who have the audacity to use their ATM's with another bank's ATM/debit card up to $15 each billing cycle!
Almost everybody has positive things to say about USAA.
Almost everybody has positive things to say about USAA.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:44 PM
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Still some misunderstandings. Some based on a lack of actual knowledge of how chip and pin works day to day.
When you go into a 7-11 and buy a few items using a card, what would happen is the card will not leave your hand. YOU put it in the card reader and then enter your PIN. The store clerk whether 16 or 60 doesn't touch it. This is important because it is when you hand over your card to a clerk or server in a restaurant who then walks away with it, that 'cloning' usually takes place. So the opportunity to clone is vastly reduced.
That 16 year old employee doesn't need to try and be a signature analysis expert. Either you know the PIN and enter it or it doesn't work. See how that is better than signature?
If I eat a meal and put my chip and pin card out on the table for payment, the server leaves the card and returns with the POS card reader (cordless). They enter the amount and then hand me the machine to put my card into. See the difference?
Chip and signature won't help in that situation if someone has stolen your card. So chip and signature makes cloning harder but has no affect on lost/stolen cards being used if they are chip and signature.
The only time chip and PIN is really necessary is when it is an automated machine such as a train ticket machine or automated gas pumps with no attendant available to pay. But the security with chip and pin is increased in every situation where you use your card.
Even online fraud requires the person committing the fraud to have got your information somewhere. If they didn't handle your card they didn't get the information off YOUR card.
Regarding Target, that has nothing to do with what kind of card anyone has. The information was taken (whether by an employee or hacker is irrelevant) from Target's computers. What could be argued there is that they should never have been storing the information in the first place. They store it of course to track your purchases and spending patterns. It does NOT need to be stored. That's what people should get annoyed about. WHY did they store it!!!
Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the forest not the trees. Chip and pin/signature reduces the chances of fraud to a greater degree than swipe and signature does. Just get your head around that simple fact and not get hung up on the ins and outs of it if you find it too complex to understand it all. You don't need to understand it all, just the result for you. Increased security. Chip and signature is better than swipe and signature and chip and pin is better than chip and signature.
NOTHING will be 100% proof against fraud except keeping your money in a mattress. So do not look at this as having to be 100% or nothing. You REDUCE risk, not eliminate it when using a chipped card.
When you go into a 7-11 and buy a few items using a card, what would happen is the card will not leave your hand. YOU put it in the card reader and then enter your PIN. The store clerk whether 16 or 60 doesn't touch it. This is important because it is when you hand over your card to a clerk or server in a restaurant who then walks away with it, that 'cloning' usually takes place. So the opportunity to clone is vastly reduced.
That 16 year old employee doesn't need to try and be a signature analysis expert. Either you know the PIN and enter it or it doesn't work. See how that is better than signature?
If I eat a meal and put my chip and pin card out on the table for payment, the server leaves the card and returns with the POS card reader (cordless). They enter the amount and then hand me the machine to put my card into. See the difference?
Chip and signature won't help in that situation if someone has stolen your card. So chip and signature makes cloning harder but has no affect on lost/stolen cards being used if they are chip and signature.
The only time chip and PIN is really necessary is when it is an automated machine such as a train ticket machine or automated gas pumps with no attendant available to pay. But the security with chip and pin is increased in every situation where you use your card.
Even online fraud requires the person committing the fraud to have got your information somewhere. If they didn't handle your card they didn't get the information off YOUR card.
Regarding Target, that has nothing to do with what kind of card anyone has. The information was taken (whether by an employee or hacker is irrelevant) from Target's computers. What could be argued there is that they should never have been storing the information in the first place. They store it of course to track your purchases and spending patterns. It does NOT need to be stored. That's what people should get annoyed about. WHY did they store it!!!
Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the forest not the trees. Chip and pin/signature reduces the chances of fraud to a greater degree than swipe and signature does. Just get your head around that simple fact and not get hung up on the ins and outs of it if you find it too complex to understand it all. You don't need to understand it all, just the result for you. Increased security. Chip and signature is better than swipe and signature and chip and pin is better than chip and signature.
NOTHING will be 100% proof against fraud except keeping your money in a mattress. So do not look at this as having to be 100% or nothing. You REDUCE risk, not eliminate it when using a chipped card.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 03:44 PM
#99
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Yes, we have everything with them--checking, savings, IRAs, insurance, etc. It’s very handy to have one primary institution. I know they have some flaws, but I’ve been fortunate not to run into any significant ones.
Dec 23rd, 2013, 04:03 PM
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Propita, I use different cards for different purposes. No one card that I have ever heard of is best for absolutely everything.
So the answer is more than one card. You might use one that provides points for example for day to day purchases at home. It's a lousy card when travelling but no card that is good when travelling is as good at giving you benefits when at home.
Then use another card to travel that has no exchange loading (foreign transaction costs in USA speak)and is chip and pin.
Then perhaps even another to rent cars that is not as good as the first one at home or as good as the second one for travel but provides you with rental car insurance free of charge.
So for example you might use your Chase card to buy a plane ticket from home to London and get points/rewards. It is a domestic purchase and so no foreign transaction fees are involved.
You might use your USAA card at a ticket machine in a train station in France. Yes, it will cost you 1% but your Chase card probably wouldn't even work!
Re debit cards, most US bank debit/atm cards do NOT add exchange loading. When you say 1%, are you aware that Visa/MC charge your bank 1% to use their system. Is that the 1% you are referring to or does your bank add ANOTHER 1% on top of that? I don't know of any bank that 'eats' the 1% Visa/MC charges them.
What you may be encountering is one bank is telling you about the 1% going to Visa/MC and the other is saying 'we don't add any FTF'. Both meanwhile giving you the exact same exchange rate. The Interbank Rate plus 1% to Visa/MC.
The way to get cash is using a debit/ATM card. You are right it is better to use a credit card to buy your flight tickets as you have better liability coverage using a credit card. Using a debit card and then having the airline go bankrupt before your flight means you can kiss your money goodbye. Use a credit card and they will refund your money with very little paperwork. I know, I've had just that happen twice and both times a simple phone call got me a form to fill in and the money credited back onto my credit card account a few weeks later. A lot of people don't realize a credit card provides you with this 'free insurance' if a purchase goes wrong.
When someone travels they need to learn how to MANAGE their credit and debit cards. Using the right tool for the job in other words and weighing the pros and cons in each situation.
For example, lets say you had a card that cost you 3% in foreign exchange loading as xyz123 tells us Chase does. Your alternative is to use the USAA with only 1% FTF. BUT, suppose you are going to use it to rent a car for a week driving around England. Further suppose the Chase card provides you with rental car insurance coverage, the CDW that can be as much as 50% of the rental cost again and that the USAAA card does not provide rental coverage. In that case the card to use would be the Chase card. A 2% exchange savings can't compete with a third off your car rental cost. I'm only giving an example here, not commenting on a specific card at all. I don't know what they cover or dont cover.
The point is there is no one card for everything and as I said you need to MANAGE your cards if you want to get the most out of them.
So the answer is more than one card. You might use one that provides points for example for day to day purchases at home. It's a lousy card when travelling but no card that is good when travelling is as good at giving you benefits when at home.
Then use another card to travel that has no exchange loading (foreign transaction costs in USA speak)and is chip and pin.
Then perhaps even another to rent cars that is not as good as the first one at home or as good as the second one for travel but provides you with rental car insurance free of charge.
So for example you might use your Chase card to buy a plane ticket from home to London and get points/rewards. It is a domestic purchase and so no foreign transaction fees are involved.
You might use your USAA card at a ticket machine in a train station in France. Yes, it will cost you 1% but your Chase card probably wouldn't even work!
Re debit cards, most US bank debit/atm cards do NOT add exchange loading. When you say 1%, are you aware that Visa/MC charge your bank 1% to use their system. Is that the 1% you are referring to or does your bank add ANOTHER 1% on top of that? I don't know of any bank that 'eats' the 1% Visa/MC charges them.
What you may be encountering is one bank is telling you about the 1% going to Visa/MC and the other is saying 'we don't add any FTF'. Both meanwhile giving you the exact same exchange rate. The Interbank Rate plus 1% to Visa/MC.
The way to get cash is using a debit/ATM card. You are right it is better to use a credit card to buy your flight tickets as you have better liability coverage using a credit card. Using a debit card and then having the airline go bankrupt before your flight means you can kiss your money goodbye. Use a credit card and they will refund your money with very little paperwork. I know, I've had just that happen twice and both times a simple phone call got me a form to fill in and the money credited back onto my credit card account a few weeks later. A lot of people don't realize a credit card provides you with this 'free insurance' if a purchase goes wrong.
When someone travels they need to learn how to MANAGE their credit and debit cards. Using the right tool for the job in other words and weighing the pros and cons in each situation.
For example, lets say you had a card that cost you 3% in foreign exchange loading as xyz123 tells us Chase does. Your alternative is to use the USAA with only 1% FTF. BUT, suppose you are going to use it to rent a car for a week driving around England. Further suppose the Chase card provides you with rental car insurance coverage, the CDW that can be as much as 50% of the rental cost again and that the USAAA card does not provide rental coverage. In that case the card to use would be the Chase card. A 2% exchange savings can't compete with a third off your car rental cost. I'm only giving an example here, not commenting on a specific card at all. I don't know what they cover or dont cover.
The point is there is no one card for everything and as I said you need to MANAGE your cards if you want to get the most out of them.
