Buying glass in Venice
Mar 22nd, 2004, 06:12 PM
#21
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After I read Nikki's 12:29 pm reply, I asked myself, "Who the hell is Nikki?" Then I saw the words horse and bird and realized she was defending her original post, most likely because of my comments.
Nikki, dear, relax. I wasn't judging you or your purchase regardless of how it sounded. I realize everybody has different budgets and different tastes. The most important thing is you like what you bought and cherish the memories that came with it (as long as you're not framing the "pace" flag).
Truthfully, I was making a statement about my lack of appreciation for modern glass design, Venetian style, which is what I thought of when you mentioned birds and horses in your original reply. Glass birds and horses are ubiquitous in Venice but they come in all styles and price-points and I missed the 10 Euro reference in your post.
Archimede Seguso offers an impressive collection of modern glass/crystal designs at top dollar. You might even find a horse or bird in one of their collections. However, this is not something I would collect because I've come to appreciate the classic Venetian works more. But, if I knew someone who did collect this modern style, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it as a gift.
And, doodlebugg, the information I provided on this thread was a very sincere attempt at offering help for you or anyone else looking to purchase glass in Venice. I know YOU started this thread but I often don't respond directly to the "person/username" who posted the thread but rather to the discussion or subject matter if it interests me. I assume many people read these threads, and oftentimes without posting, but I don't assume to know what depth of information they seek or any other nuance. The title, "Buying glass in Venice," will come up for anyone searching info on glass in Venice.
There is no need to take anything I say too personally, and this applies to everyone, since I haven't a clue who you are or if you're for real. There's so much talk of trolls these days, who knows. I do know there are plenty of sincere readers out there and I'm here for them, too.
If you think I was being abrasive above, then you need to discover exfoliation, because I think I was smooth as an expensive piece of modern Venetian glass. Wesley, on the other hand was a bit more caustic but he does make me laugh, sometimes, and anyone who makes me laugh is OK by me. No real harm done.
Nikki, dear, relax. I wasn't judging you or your purchase regardless of how it sounded. I realize everybody has different budgets and different tastes. The most important thing is you like what you bought and cherish the memories that came with it (as long as you're not framing the "pace" flag).
Truthfully, I was making a statement about my lack of appreciation for modern glass design, Venetian style, which is what I thought of when you mentioned birds and horses in your original reply. Glass birds and horses are ubiquitous in Venice but they come in all styles and price-points and I missed the 10 Euro reference in your post.
Archimede Seguso offers an impressive collection of modern glass/crystal designs at top dollar. You might even find a horse or bird in one of their collections. However, this is not something I would collect because I've come to appreciate the classic Venetian works more. But, if I knew someone who did collect this modern style, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it as a gift.
And, doodlebugg, the information I provided on this thread was a very sincere attempt at offering help for you or anyone else looking to purchase glass in Venice. I know YOU started this thread but I often don't respond directly to the "person/username" who posted the thread but rather to the discussion or subject matter if it interests me. I assume many people read these threads, and oftentimes without posting, but I don't assume to know what depth of information they seek or any other nuance. The title, "Buying glass in Venice," will come up for anyone searching info on glass in Venice.
There is no need to take anything I say too personally, and this applies to everyone, since I haven't a clue who you are or if you're for real. There's so much talk of trolls these days, who knows. I do know there are plenty of sincere readers out there and I'm here for them, too.
If you think I was being abrasive above, then you need to discover exfoliation, because I think I was smooth as an expensive piece of modern Venetian glass. Wesley, on the other hand was a bit more caustic but he does make me laugh, sometimes, and anyone who makes me laugh is OK by me. No real harm done.
Mar 23rd, 2004, 06:20 AM
#23
Going to the source for collectable art or artisanship can backfire sometimes. Years ago I went shopping for a Persian rug in Iran, only to discover that the best prices were in London, because (a) that's where the buying power was, and (b) the best pieces often weren't put up for general sale anywhere, but instead were snapped up locally by bigshots who put the rugs in special "rug banks" in Iran - climate-controlled structures where the rugs could sit and appreciate.
That's the deal with art collecting - you may find yourself paying prices set by the investor market for something you view as an aesthetic addition to your family room. If you buy something for $500 in Venice and justify it by saying to yourself that it will be worth $1000 in five years, you're fooling yourself. Buy it because you like it, whether it's $500 or $50. When you pay that for it, that's what it's worth.
If you're serious about art glass collecting, do serious homework first, because even the great studios produce average material. For investment pieces, skip Murano and head to Sotheby's.
That's the deal with art collecting - you may find yourself paying prices set by the investor market for something you view as an aesthetic addition to your family room. If you buy something for $500 in Venice and justify it by saying to yourself that it will be worth $1000 in five years, you're fooling yourself. Buy it because you like it, whether it's $500 or $50. When you pay that for it, that's what it's worth.
If you're serious about art glass collecting, do serious homework first, because even the great studios produce average material. For investment pieces, skip Murano and head to Sotheby's.
Feb 4th, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Greetings from the UK.
Just returned from a short trip to Venice and we too were invited for a motor-boat ride.
After seeing the skilled workers in action at the furnace we too were taken to see a massive display of the most beautiful glass we have ever seen.
We knew nothing about the values of glass or the leading Master Glassmiths but were attracted to the works of Adriano Dalle Valentino. In particular we fell in love with a sea turtle - perhaps a little large for our house- but the piece attracted our interest because the way the movement of the animal had been captured.
We fainted at the price of the turtle but asked for an explanation of the work involved. The painstaking task of ensuring the ring patterns of each of the scales and effecting the indentations on upper shell was outlined.
We advised the sales representative that we had no intention of completing a sale that day and that all we would be prepared to do was follow their reservation procedure.....
The document just states
"In case of cancellation of the order the customer will be entirely refunded. The reservation is to be considered for 10 days starting from today 2nd January 2005"
The reservation deposit was paid by credit card
The reservation is to apply our signature to the glass in order that if we proceed with the order we know that the item provided is the one we saw in the showroom.
Now more about the ghastly prices...
The total price of the sea turtle is 13,000 Euros including head,body, neck fins and under body shell on a glass stand.
In a shop in St Marks we saw a smaller top shell only - that was priced at 5000 Euros.
Whilst we saw glossy brochures for Valentino in Murano and also at the St Marks retailer it was only on this forum I was able to find some useful ideas. Perhaps the collectors here may have some useful links.
Anyway thanks for reading and any help would be appreciated. We are not wealthy but have an insurance policy maturing. We would get much enjoyment from a work of art such as this - much more than filling the house with the latest electronic equipment or buying a new car.
Just returned from a short trip to Venice and we too were invited for a motor-boat ride.
After seeing the skilled workers in action at the furnace we too were taken to see a massive display of the most beautiful glass we have ever seen.
We knew nothing about the values of glass or the leading Master Glassmiths but were attracted to the works of Adriano Dalle Valentino. In particular we fell in love with a sea turtle - perhaps a little large for our house- but the piece attracted our interest because the way the movement of the animal had been captured.
We fainted at the price of the turtle but asked for an explanation of the work involved. The painstaking task of ensuring the ring patterns of each of the scales and effecting the indentations on upper shell was outlined.
We advised the sales representative that we had no intention of completing a sale that day and that all we would be prepared to do was follow their reservation procedure.....
The document just states
"In case of cancellation of the order the customer will be entirely refunded. The reservation is to be considered for 10 days starting from today 2nd January 2005"
The reservation deposit was paid by credit card
The reservation is to apply our signature to the glass in order that if we proceed with the order we know that the item provided is the one we saw in the showroom.
Now more about the ghastly prices...
The total price of the sea turtle is 13,000 Euros including head,body, neck fins and under body shell on a glass stand.
In a shop in St Marks we saw a smaller top shell only - that was priced at 5000 Euros.
Whilst we saw glossy brochures for Valentino in Murano and also at the St Marks retailer it was only on this forum I was able to find some useful ideas. Perhaps the collectors here may have some useful links.
Anyway thanks for reading and any help would be appreciated. We are not wealthy but have an insurance policy maturing. We would get much enjoyment from a work of art such as this - much more than filling the house with the latest electronic equipment or buying a new car.
Feb 4th, 2005, 12:54 PM
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I'm not clear, are you wondering whether or not to proceed with the order, wondering if the price is reasonable, or...?
And what are the dimensions of the piece?
American artisans in glass, like Dale Chihuly get prices like the ones you mentioned, and much more than the 13,000 euro, for very large signed sculptures. Whether or not the piece you saw, and the price, are good for you, is your call. You will have to add in customs charges, and perhaps shipping, as well.
And what are the dimensions of the piece?
American artisans in glass, like Dale Chihuly get prices like the ones you mentioned, and much more than the 13,000 euro, for very large signed sculptures. Whether or not the piece you saw, and the price, are good for you, is your call. You will have to add in customs charges, and perhaps shipping, as well.
Feb 4th, 2005, 01:55 PM
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Thanks Elaine for your fast response.
We reckon the turtle was about 650cm from nose to tail and a similar width if you count the flippers. It also has a substantial stand that has captured the turtle in swimming motion. Guess that might count as a large piece - it's darned heavy to lift up!!!
Yes we like the piece and think that many, many hours of skilled work went into its manufacture.
You mentioned Dale Chihuly and a search on his name revealed quite a lot of information.
Although Valentino does not have such a presence on the internet it is evident he has a reputation as one of Murano's Master Craftsman. e.g stocked in St Marks Square by specialist gallery and front window display of four star hotel.
Fortunately being trade within the EC there is no import duty and value added tax is paid by the retailer. Transport is included to the nearest airport.
At the moment our feeling is to stay with the order but there are other people to be consulted too.
We reckon the turtle was about 650cm from nose to tail and a similar width if you count the flippers. It also has a substantial stand that has captured the turtle in swimming motion. Guess that might count as a large piece - it's darned heavy to lift up!!!
Yes we like the piece and think that many, many hours of skilled work went into its manufacture.
You mentioned Dale Chihuly and a search on his name revealed quite a lot of information.
Although Valentino does not have such a presence on the internet it is evident he has a reputation as one of Murano's Master Craftsman. e.g stocked in St Marks Square by specialist gallery and front window display of four star hotel.
Fortunately being trade within the EC there is no import duty and value added tax is paid by the retailer. Transport is included to the nearest airport.
At the moment our feeling is to stay with the order but there are other people to be consulted too.
Feb 4th, 2005, 04:51 PM
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I meant to add,
Within reasonable budget limits, when I have buying regrets, they are not about the things I buy, but about the things I don't buy.
If it fits the budget and gives you great pleasure, I wish you many years of enjoyment.
Within reasonable budget limits, when I have buying regrets, they are not about the things I buy, but about the things I don't buy.
If it fits the budget and gives you great pleasure, I wish you many years of enjoyment.
Feb 4th, 2005, 05:25 PM
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For any master piece over $5000 I would consult a reputable broker. Even with a Venetian broker's fee, the total price for any piece I purchased dropped anywhere from 15-35%, depending on the size and complexity of the item. In Italy (as elsewhere), it's all about who you know and who is handling the negotiation.
Turtles aren't my thing and it sounds to me like your commitment is too far along to shift gears now but experienced brokers are the cost-saving way to purchase high-priced glassware.
Good luck.
Turtles aren't my thing and it sounds to me like your commitment is too far along to shift gears now but experienced brokers are the cost-saving way to purchase high-priced glassware.
Good luck.
Feb 5th, 2005, 12:19 PM
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Unfortunately, the dirty little secret behind artisan glass collecting is "cost the item as high as you can and see if an unknowing customer will bite." Many do and they're typically one-time buyers. This is where an experienced buyer/broker, a person who has a tenured, respected relationship with the artist can save you a fortune.
For novices, this is how I would proceed:
If you visit an artisan's workroom and you spot a pricey original that you would love to own, express a sincere interest in the piece but don't commit. If you're serious about buying the piece, do everything you can to study the piece, take pictures if you can, and see if there's some significant detail that would enable you to identify the piece long after you've walked away from it. When the artist tells you the asking price, say thank you and leave. (You need to think about it.) Then go find yourself a broker.
All the reputable glass dealers in Venice know who the brokers are. You may have to do some homework to research who the reputable dealers are. Sometimes, in the least expected places (at some of the various places mentioned here on fodors) you can be turned on to English speaking brokers who have established relationships with the glass masters.
With a broker's assistance, a $15,000 collector's piece could easily come down to $8,000. Add a 20% broker fee, and your final cost is $9,600, a substantial savings. Broker fees vary and can be negotiable.
Master artisans have a long standing respect for the brokers. The brokers bring them the wealthiest, most tasteful customers and they typically return over and over again. One-time buyers are seen once and never heard from again. Also, there's a built in mechanism to support the brokers because it's a necessary part their business and has been for many, many years. Most brokers, if not all, live in Venice.
Of course, all these shenanigans take time and many folks looking to make just one purchase aren't interested in taking the time. To each his own. After all, it's only money.
Happy brokering.
For novices, this is how I would proceed:
If you visit an artisan's workroom and you spot a pricey original that you would love to own, express a sincere interest in the piece but don't commit. If you're serious about buying the piece, do everything you can to study the piece, take pictures if you can, and see if there's some significant detail that would enable you to identify the piece long after you've walked away from it. When the artist tells you the asking price, say thank you and leave. (You need to think about it.) Then go find yourself a broker.
All the reputable glass dealers in Venice know who the brokers are. You may have to do some homework to research who the reputable dealers are. Sometimes, in the least expected places (at some of the various places mentioned here on fodors) you can be turned on to English speaking brokers who have established relationships with the glass masters.
With a broker's assistance, a $15,000 collector's piece could easily come down to $8,000. Add a 20% broker fee, and your final cost is $9,600, a substantial savings. Broker fees vary and can be negotiable.
Master artisans have a long standing respect for the brokers. The brokers bring them the wealthiest, most tasteful customers and they typically return over and over again. One-time buyers are seen once and never heard from again. Also, there's a built in mechanism to support the brokers because it's a necessary part their business and has been for many, many years. Most brokers, if not all, live in Venice.
Of course, all these shenanigans take time and many folks looking to make just one purchase aren't interested in taking the time. To each his own. After all, it's only money.
Happy brokering.
Feb 5th, 2005, 08:41 PM
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I've put some pictures I took of the modern works of Murano craftsmen together with a link to this discussion on this link......
http://gallery137615.fotopic.net/c422656_1.html
Enjoy.....?!
http://gallery137615.fotopic.net/c422656_1.html
Enjoy.....?!
Feb 5th, 2005, 11:28 PM
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Good advice here on buying techniques. When we bought our Murano chandelier we spent three days searching out high quality and narrowing down our prospects. It is a big investment and you really need to do some research before you even reach Murano.
Feb 6th, 2005, 08:43 AM
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With all due respect, elaine, without permission, it would be impossible for me to post someone's name and contact information on the internet, and it would never occur to me to ask for that permission. I know better.
Certainly, if I knew someone personally who was interested in making a serious art purchase, I wouldn't hesitate to pass on the appropriate information. That's one person using my name as a reference and not an internet plug.
Many businesses in Italy, especially the one-man operations, prefer to work discreetly, whatever the obvious reasons. Because I'm a regular visitor, I choose to respect their modi operandi.
My offer of the novice approach on this thread is the best I can do at this time. Those who speak better Italian will find it easier to be discreet and will find the process easier. But there are American ex-pats living in Venice who will happily broker a purchase for you and speak Italian on your behalf (and save you tons of money).
Certainly, if I knew someone personally who was interested in making a serious art purchase, I wouldn't hesitate to pass on the appropriate information. That's one person using my name as a reference and not an internet plug.
Many businesses in Italy, especially the one-man operations, prefer to work discreetly, whatever the obvious reasons. Because I'm a regular visitor, I choose to respect their modi operandi.
My offer of the novice approach on this thread is the best I can do at this time. Those who speak better Italian will find it easier to be discreet and will find the process easier. But there are American ex-pats living in Venice who will happily broker a purchase for you and speak Italian on your behalf (and save you tons of money).
Feb 6th, 2005, 09:11 AM
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Interesting postings on that fotopic webpage, worldlife... but I could only view the first six of the 23 imags it said were listed there. Any thoughts on whether it is working for everyone else?
And I think that buying major art - - whether glass or not - - say anything more than a few percent of your annual household income is a major undertaking (certainly would be for me). We are thinking about one or major art purchases, and I see approaching it as a months-long watch/learn/investigate process - - it seems very unlkely that I would make such a purchase in Venice, without having first see a lot of pictures from the source there and other comparable sources "at home" (i.e, in the United States, in my case) or abroad.
Major glassworks are in a lot of cities; I don't know how ranks as a unique locus, but even in Columbus Ohio - - at hawkgalleries.com for example - - there are works from a good two dozen artists (including a substantial number by Chihuly and "Chihuly studio"
, ranging from over $5000 to large six-figure numbers. I am just guessing that way broader selections (and price ranges) are avaialable in even bigger cities where the market of prospective buyers ("local" and visiting) is much larger.
The advice from NYCFS about brokerage services sounds knowledgeable in ways I that go over my head. Might be a good idea if you are tempted by a purchase that is say... over TEN percent of your annual household income. Saving a third would be important to me if I were making a purchase that big! I wish I knew how to save a third on buying a new house (but then again, that's a lot more than one hundred percent of my income).
And one last comment - - did you mean that the turtle was 650 <i><b>milli</b></i>meters? 650 centimeters is over 20 <i><b>feet</B</b></i> - - only a very rare art museum could display something that big (and wouldn't it weigh tons?)
And I think that buying major art - - whether glass or not - - say anything more than a few percent of your annual household income is a major undertaking (certainly would be for me). We are thinking about one or major art purchases, and I see approaching it as a months-long watch/learn/investigate process - - it seems very unlkely that I would make such a purchase in Venice, without having first see a lot of pictures from the source there and other comparable sources "at home" (i.e, in the United States, in my case) or abroad.
Major glassworks are in a lot of cities; I don't know how ranks as a unique locus, but even in Columbus Ohio - - at hawkgalleries.com for example - - there are works from a good two dozen artists (including a substantial number by Chihuly and "Chihuly studio"
, ranging from over $5000 to large six-figure numbers. I am just guessing that way broader selections (and price ranges) are avaialable in even bigger cities where the market of prospective buyers ("local" and visiting) is much larger.The advice from NYCFS about brokerage services sounds knowledgeable in ways I that go over my head. Might be a good idea if you are tempted by a purchase that is say... over TEN percent of your annual household income. Saving a third would be important to me if I were making a purchase that big! I wish I knew how to save a third on buying a new house (but then again, that's a lot more than one hundred percent of my income).
And one last comment - - did you mean that the turtle was 650 <i><b>milli</b></i>meters? 650 centimeters is over 20 <i><b>feet</B</b></i> - - only a very rare art museum could display something that big (and wouldn't it weigh tons?)
Feb 6th, 2005, 09:21 AM
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rex, good comments to put things in perspective (tho' I think you're off on the measurements, I usually divide cms by 2.5 and that way I get about 18 feet-- still plenty big!)
The reality is I will not be spending in my life time, winning the lottery excepted, anything close to the amounts that have been mentioned here, not to mention that I don't have the space--and when I next go on a 'big splurge' for glass ('big' for me, that is) I doubt any broker would want to be bothered.
I'll just keep going back to the factory I deal with.
The reality is I will not be spending in my life time, winning the lottery excepted, anything close to the amounts that have been mentioned here, not to mention that I don't have the space--and when I next go on a 'big splurge' for glass ('big' for me, that is) I doubt any broker would want to be bothered.
I'll just keep going back to the factory I deal with.
