is seville or madrid best place to see bull fight

Boycott these bloody spectacles in my opinion to protest this animal abuse redolent of barbaric medieval times. There is no best place to see a bullfight - perhpas Portugal or France where they just torment but don't kill the bull.

Why is the bullfight animal abuse, but ordering a steak in a restaurant or wearing leather shoes not abuse?

In the bullfight we saw in France, it was definitly man against beast. There was one bull that had a very good chance of winning. In the end, he did not, but at least he was allowed to fight it out. Slaughterhouse beef are not given that choice.

Politics aside, I don't know the answer to your question, but do try to see one. I was so surprised by the nuances of the competition. It wasn't just about killing the bull, it was how daring the matador was. We had a wonderful time.

Oh, and take a nice big empty bottle with you (like a Nalgene). That way you can carry around your pitcher of sangria and take it with you into the fight.

Both these cities get the really famous matadors, but for the best such crazy experience, nothing beats

www.spanish-fiestas.com/spanish-festivals/ pamplona-bull-running-san-fermin.htm

WK

To answer kelliebellie's question, the animal that became the steak was not tortured to the delight of a stadium full of cave people.

Cave people? They still have cave people in Spain?

In the emotional and intellectual sense, they can be found the world over.

And cock fighting is legal in Oklahoma i guess and dog fights are a howl as well all over the U.S. - these relics of more barbaric days should be outlawed in a civil society. I'd include human boxing matches as well.

Hey, would someone just answer Pam's question? Posters on this forum should be able to expect factual responses to their queries, not PETA rantings.

In my opinion is horrible. Even worse when they have the novices and can't get the blade correct. Sometimes it takes six or seven times to bring down the bull.

But, how about the reality of bull fighting. First, the horses in the the arena have had their vocal cords have been cut, since often the horses are hurt and they don't want to complain the public.

Then, the bull is bled to weaken them from the bicadillos (is this the correct word?). Their shoulders get weak from the bicadillos. Then the ones right into the neck keeps the bull from twisting when he makes his charge. It prevents the Toredor getting hurt.

No, for me there are better afternoons to pass. Find a nice restaurant and have some nice food. It's just as "Spanish" as the bull fighting.

Blackduff

I don't believe the bulls we saw were tortured. When the time came to do them in, it was done very quickly and efficiently with an incredibly sharp sword.

I can't imagine it can be any worse than herding cows to their death at the slaughterhouse. I don't think the beef farms are exactly the cow paradise everyone thinks they are:

http://www.factoryfarming.com/beef.htm

Here are some highlights:

"This is detailed in an April 2001 Washington Post article, which describes typical slaughterplant conditions:

The cattle were supposed to be dead before they got to Moreno. But too often they weren't.

They blink. They make noises, he said softly. The head moves, the eyes are wide and looking around. Still Moreno would cut. On bad days, he says, dozens of animals reached his station clearly alive and conscious. Some would survive as far as the tail cutter, the belly ripper, the hide puller. They die, said Moreno, piece by piece...

"In plants all over the United States, this happens on a daily basis," said Lester Friedlander, a veterinarian and formerly chief government inspector at a Pennsylvania hamburger plant. "I've seen it happen. And I've talked to other veterinarians. They feel it's out of control."

The U.S. Department of Agriculture oversees the treatment of animals in meat plants, but enforcement of the law varies dramatically. While a few plants have been forced to halt production for a few hours because of alleged animal cruelty, such sanctions are rare.

Reaction to the Washington Post investigative piece and others like it precipitated a Congressional resolution reiterating the importance of the Humane Slaughter Act, but to date, there is little if any indication that the situation for animals in slaughterhouses has appreciably improved. "

The toruture of animals in any form should be outlawed. And it is the enjoyment of the torture - of the bulls and the horses - that makes this activitiy so repugnant.

And IMHO anyone who would watch this for pleasure is on the verge of being a sociopath (having no empathy for other living beings) - what if it were your child or parent fighting for it's life - would it be an amusement then?

If the attendees are so eager to see animals killed in this "sport" - then they should go into the ring themselves with a knife - so the bull has a 50/50 chance of winning.

One can accept - reluctantly - the use of animals as food - since this is done swiftly and not for the enjoyment of those with personality disorders. (But we do buy only free range chickens, won;t touch veal - and do eat mostly fish, pasta etc - that does not involve torture of our mammal cousins).

It is always easier to see these animal injustices in other societies. I have witnessed little protest about rodeos. Do you know how they make those bulls and horses buck?

That the "kill" is usually made clean belies my bullfight experience (1) where some of the bulls did not go down quickly but because of bad thrusts went slowly, falling to their knees, trying to rise, spitting up buckets of blood, thrashing around until, in one case, a more experienced matador had to come in to make the kill. Yes i encourage everyone to go once just to see how bloody these things are. As for slaughterhouses - the killing there should be done as humane as possible - no packed vans of bovines stuffed in Auschwitz style, etc. Chickens crammed into cages where they can't even move - this is just as cruel - I'm not a PETA member but believe how we treat animals is a sign of a civilized society.
This is off the OP and let's get back to whether Seville or Madrid is a better slaughter show! I sanguinely vote for Seville as Andalucians must be more colorful.

When we were in Spain, we heard that a lot of the bullfighting had been discontinued in the north. The south still has a lot though.

I'm very much into respecting other people's opinions. If you enjoy a good bullfight, then good for you. If you don't eat meat, don't wear leather, and feel bullfights are torture, then good for you. People should have principles and should stick to them. One viewpoint is not better than the other.

What bothers me is people that say that bullfighting is torture, but then love a good steak or wear leather. Just because that t-bone is nicely wrapped in cellophane does not mean that the cow you are looking at had a nice life on the farm and died a nice peaceful death. I think it is hypocritical to think that the animal wasn't tortured just because you didn't see it die.

And free range chickens have a much better life on the farm then caged in chickens. Definitly. But what about when they meet their maker? I assume they don't just sit around and wait for them to die of old age. There has to be a moment of violence in there somewhere.

And it wasn't the violence of killing the bull that was celebrated at the bullfight. When it came time to do the animal in, everyone became very quiet and respectful. The crowd's enjoyment came from the interaction between man and bull. It was a contest of courage, not a festival for blood lust.

So anyway Pam, I still don't know if it is better to see one is Seville or Madrid. The one we went to was part of a big festival and that made it really fun. I would see what else is going on in each town on bullfight day and let that guide you.

Anyone who can't see a difference between wearing leather and eating meat and spectacle killing isn't being honest. Again let's legislate humane killing of meat animals - raising the price accordingly so fewer people can eat meat - a win win situation - your health is better in long run and no more animal abuse - of course killing is abuse and though i don't eat meat i'm willing to let others make that choice - it's just the treatment of animals i want to make better. It's like when i see the Chinese dipping live cats and dogs into boiling oil - this should not be allowed and see little difference with bullfighting.

In answer to pam16's question, both Sevilla and Madrid are excellent places to see a bullfight, but Sevilla's bullring is much smaller than Madrid's, which will hold about 40,000 people, mostly non-cave types.

http://www.portaltaurino.com/
http://www.portaltaurino.com/nuevo/toros_en_espana.htm

I don't know why I'm replying to this topic but my opinion is that it is a useless argument trying to change someone's mind about bullfighting and one should never try.

kelliebellie - Regardless of the fact there should be better regulations for slaugher houses, please keep separate the use and abuse of animals purely for specator and tourist enjoyment. Your comparison leaves out the difference between sustenance and clothing, vs. straightout waste of life. There are many traditions meant to be broken and bullfighting is right up there with dogfighting, cockfighting, etc.