My daughter is a student planning to attend an American art school program in Italy (UGA Cortona) in the Spring, that lasts 89 days long. For that she is told she is not required a visa.

She'd like to travel for an extra 2-3 weeks in Europe / Schengen area and is wondering what to do?

Are there border controls between the different Schengen countries? Or is crossing from say Italy to Switzerland, then France etc, the same as crossing from say Illinois to Wisconsin and Minnesota?

Or how easy would it be for her to receive a Schengen visa, and what kind of visa should she apply for (student? Travel? does it matter?), and at which country's consulate here in the USA?......

....Thanks!

Since she will be a student - she probably should apply for a student visa.

Otherwise she'll overstay and could face repercussions - especially if she ever wants to return to Schengen.

There are few border controls and traveling between countries probably wouldn't be an issue unless she is very unlucky. BUT the problem will be at the beginning - they won't let her in to Italy if her return is more than 90 days out, and at the end when she leaves. It will be obvious she overstayed.

This is not something she should take a chance with. When young people enter an Schengen country for an extended visit they are often questioned closely as to their exact timing, they have to show their return ticket, provide info as to where they will be staying and show they have access to enough money to support themselves. If she appears with a return ticket more than 90 days out she might well simply be sent home on the next plane.

Since she will be a student she should work with the school she is going with to get a student visa - but she will have to make arrangements to study for more than 90 days to get a visa for more than 90 days.

Her other option is to leave Schengen (and have proof she will be doing so) then move on to a non-Schengen country - like the UK - which does not limit her by the 89 days she has already spent in Schengen. (And the fact that the school program is 89 days makes me think that the school has no interest in getting involved in visa issues.)

Overstaying her visa will be obvious and her name might well be entered into the intercountry computer program and she could be banned from entry for a significant number of years.

Oh, hmmmm.... ok, thanks....... We did not take into consideration her entry to Italy and the chance of the Italian immigration agents checking her return flight date....

Then which country's consulate would be easiest to receive a student visa from? From the little we've been reading, the French are more difficult? We live in Chicago, must she apply in person? 'Cause we heard from someone that mailing the application forms to the Italian consulate in Miami is easier, 'cause they're more lenient.....

And to clarify nytraveler's post -- she can leave Schengen (like to the UK) but she will <u>not</u> be able to re-enter Schengen.

I suspect nytraveler is correct thinking the school won't be of much help. An 89 day course looks like they don't want anything to do w/ visa issues.

we were posting at the same time . . .

"<i>the chance of the Italian immigration agents checking her return flight date....</i>"

No "chance" in it -- it is 100% definite they will want to see her return ticket.

As for 'country shopping' for a visa -- doesn't work that way. Her visa will be for a specific course in a specific country.

Would she be willing to travel in non-Schengen country for those last 2-3 weeks? That would solve the problem.

I think it sounds correct as stated above that the the 89 day course seems specifically planned at that length to avoid overstaying the 90 day limit or doing all the additional paperwork for an extended visa.

Thanks so much, we appreciate the help, since information seems hard to find.............

You need to assume she won't get a student visa. Typically, to get one she has to show she's on a course of over 90 days at a specific institution - and there's a ton of bureaucracy, apart from proving enrollment, she has to go through.

You can't choose the consulate you apply to: you have to aspply to the consulate of the country where she'll be studying for over 90 days.

Her real choices are:

1. Obey the letter and the spirit of the law and go home on day 90.
2. Risk arrest and deportation by overstaying. Intra-Schengen orders (and other intra-Schengen travel) aren't like the US: these are independent countries, liable to re-impose border controls at zero notice and with no publicity. Partial reimposition can be provoked by terrorism, a major crime, a big event or just one police force trying to discourage dope smuggling (as happens often on trains from Holland to France). Which said: the likelihood of capture is low - but if she's planning a serious job, it really isn't a good thing to be on the computers of the world's largest trading bloc as a deporteee.
3. Overstay in non-Shengen countries. In Europe, that's the UK, Ireland, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, former Yugoslavia (though not Slovenia) , Cyprus, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and Turkey.

There's NO legal way of spending a day anywhere in Schengen during the 90 days after the legal 90 without a visa.

So I guess she will need to apply for a TOURIST VISA, right? I would imagine it shouldn't be that complicated.... Unless Europe doesn't want tourists coming?

In other words, the first 90 days she doesn't need any visa. But on day 91 she'd need to use the tourist visa.

"<i>So I guess she will need to apply for a TOURIST VISA, right? I would imagine it shouldn't be that complicated....</i>"

It just isn't that easy.

"<i>Unless Europe doesn't want tourists coming?</i>"

Of course they want tourists. But 99% of tourists easily conform to the 90 day rules.

The Schengen countries agree only to allow foreign tourists to stay a maximum of 90 days within a period of 6 months, so your daughter must leave on Day 90. Tourists with US citizenship are not exempt from that rule, so your daughter has no chance of getting an extra stay as a tourist besides they don't issue Tourist visas for US citizens. To satisfy your curiosity, you should just call one of the Italian consulates incognito to see if there is any loophole that would enable your daughter to stay as a tourist beyond 90 day rule.

She can travel as much as she wants after her course if she picks destinations outside the Schengen zone. Which leaves heaps of interesting options, like Croatia and some other countries in the Balcans, the UK, and so on. The point is planning accordingly. The rest of Schengen, though, has to be left for another trip.

The US of A expect visitors to play by the rules, too, right?

I see no indication that the OP does not intend to play by the rules. Just an inquiry as to how /what/ where to arrange this legally for her daughter since, as mentioned, the school has purposely arranged studies for a non- visa time frame.

Not to dishearten you, but the easiest thing will be for you to book her open jaw OUT of a non schengen country, leave italy and enjoy somewhere else as mentioned. She can even take ferries over to Croatia, then fly to London. Should be a lot of fun planning!

<<< So I guess she will need to apply for a TOURIST VISA, right? I would imagine it shouldn't be that complicated.... Unless Europe doesn't want tourists coming? >>>

You mean like the US does - 90 days VWP plus ESTA plus Secure-flight otherwise you apply for a B2 visa which costs a lot of money and doesn't guarantee a visa at the end of it

BTW "Europe" doesn't have visas, individual countries have visas. Some European countries even allow Americans to stay up to 6 months without applying for a visa in advance.

<i>No "chance" in it -- it is 100% definite they will want to see her return ticket.</i>

I'd put the odds at significantly less than 100%. I have never been asked to show proof of a return ticket by any immigration authority anywhere. If one felt this would be an issue and wanted to skirt the rules, then you could simply buy a refundable, one-way ticket and refund it immediately upon clearing immigration.

Personally, though I think there is minimal risk in overstaying the 90 days, the possible repercussions are severe enough that I don't think it worth doing it. Spend an extra 2-3 weeks in a non-Schengen country - Ireland and the UK would be an obvious choice. I would also consider either Morocco or Egypt, or the Balkans.

mammamia,

You really need to talk to consulate of the country or countries your daughter is contemplating visiting after her Italian course is completed. While your daughter will not need a visa to stay 90 days in Italy, she will need a permesso di soggiorno from the Italian government, which I would certainly expect the school to assist her in obtaining.

It may be possible for your daughter to remain in Italy beyond the 90 days, depending on how she applies for her permesso and under what terms it is granted. In recent months, rules governing which people with an Italian permesso di soggiorno may travel within the Schengen zone have changed, and they may change again by the time your daughter needs a permesso. So it is good to get to know your local consulate!

If she is hoping to leave Italy to a different European country or countries within the Schengen zone, you should talk to the relevant consulates. As Alan Row points out, some European countries have allowed Americans to stay up to six months without applying for a visa.

But your daughter cannot assume that if she is allowed to stay beyond 90 days in one E country that she can legally travel throughout Europe. She may be able to. She may not be able to, depending on what paperwork she obtains, and only consulates can advise you as to what is available in her circumstances.

isn't Switzerland still non-Schengen?

No

mammamia2,

If I can add just one more note:

There is a common misconception that anybody who is not a resident of the EU is barred from staying in the EU longer than 90 days, and this idea of "the rules" gets parrotted back at people hoping to travel in Europe longer than 90 days. But that misses the point of what getting the right paperwork for a longer stay is about.

The EU only wants to keep certain people from living in the EU, or staying there for extended periods. Your daughter is more than likely not one of them. If she wants, she can petition the Italian government (or some other EU country she hopes to visit) to provide her with the paperwork that she can show any authority who asks that she has met the conditions for staying beyond 90 days.

These rules are conditional, not absolute.

I don't know (and neither does anyone here) if your daughter meets the requirements for the countries she wants to visit. Each one sets its own immigration policy. (For instance, some countries require the traveler have personal health insurance or assets large enough to sustain a claim they are not entering the country seeking to work, and some young people don't personally have health insurance or sufficient assets.)

But she should find out from the relevant consulates as soon as possible what she needs to do to start the process of getting the paperwork, because the paperwork will have to be issued from Italy (or wherever else in Europe), and that can take months. Also, if she is able to obtain a longer-stay visa for Italy, she should know in advance of arriving Italy exactly how she should fill out the paperwork for a permesso di soggiorno, in case that paperwork needs to be consistent with the conditions for which her longer-stay visa was issued.

Long way of saying, start by asking your questions of the consulates. Good luck!