Would love to hear "liveability" views from those who live in either city. I'm an expat living in Tokyo, contemplating a move to Germany and would love to hear opinions/experiences straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks!

Hello! I've lived in Munich for 2 years and really like it. A lot of people speak English although knowing some German helps a lot. Munich is a beautitul little city. It has the same stuff to do as huge cities, but it's not very big. Best of all, it's only an hour or so from the mountains! The public transportation here is excellent (I don't have a car). Coming from Tokyo you'll probably see things a lot differently than I did when I moved here from the U.S. What would you like to know?

I lived in Munich 2 years as a kid, 9 months as a working adult. Everything Paige says is true, and those are all fine advantages. For me, as a single person (at the time), Munich was not a great place. I found it provincial and snobby, and very white bread: very homogenous, with no flavor. Few blacks or gays, mainly well-off white people. I much preferred Berlin, a REAL CITY (Munich is an overgrown village). However, Munich would be an ideal place for people who don't really like cities. I love visiting there, but hated living there. Your mileage may vary, depending on what you like in life. It'll seem VERY CALM and possibly dull compared with Tokyo. Send mail if you have any specific questions.

I can see Francesca's point. I guess it depends on your perspective. I moved here after living my entire life in boring parts of the U.S. and am just tickled pink to be living in Europe. What she said about the people is true. I don't think I'd want to live here alone because the people seem hard to make friends with. One really good thing about Munich is that there is very little crime. It's also in an excellent location for touring Europe and trips to the mountains. It really depends on what you prefer. I think Berlin would be a cool place to live but I'd really miss the mountains!

Thanks for the feedback. To answer Paige's question, I'm interested in the overall environments of Berlin and Munich; things like pace of life, conservative vs. international, access to surrounding nature, and whether the cities themselves are attractive, sprawling, filled with concrete, etc. Coming from San Francisco and Tokyo, I prefer a multicultural, stimulating setting that's not frenzied, cold and crowded like Tokyo, and where foreigners feel comfortable. More commments now on Berlin vs. Munich?

Al, given your preferences, I think you would love Berlin. It is so alive! The Berliners have a famous, sort of warped, sense of humor and I'd read about it for years. Always wondered what it was like. Then I visited there (only for four days) and experienced it a bit first hand. It was fun, unexpected. <BR>Berlin is a real city. As opposed to a small one with a few amenities. At first I thought the place was ugly (as compared to some more charming places in Germany) but the vitality of the place just grabs ahold of you. Also, I expect it will be a bit unsettled for some time to come, with the German government just having relocated there from Bonn, and there are still all kinds of issues being played out, still left over and continuing for WWII. Because of all that, I think it would be a very exciting place to be. Warning. I doubt if any place in Germany would be considered an easy place to make friends.

Hello again! Munich is much slower than Berlin, more conservative, has better access to nature, more attractive (I think), not sprawling or filled with concrete. A lot of foreigners live here, possibly the same percentage as in Berlin? It's not particularly frenzied or crowded, but the people can be sorta cold. If you're white, you'll blend right in. I can't speak for other races. I spent a few days in Berlin this summer and liked the atmosphere. The people didn't seem near as uptight as they do around here. Around here, rules are very important and a local will chew you out you if you break them (esp. old ladies). But, there's very little crime. Berlin has a lot more going on and is in a constant state of change. I would think it would be an exciting place to live. Berlin and Munich really are completely different.

For access to nature, Munich is tops. Even within the city, you can take idyllic bike rides and walks. It's small size and calm nature would be ideal for someone who is sick of a large, concrete-filled city. It is safe, clean and very, very pretty. But if you want that "buzz" (a la NYC, Paris, London), head for Berlin! Which isn't concrete-filled, just bigger and grittier.

Hi gang, your comments are quite interesting. And helpful in fleshing out the Berlin/Munich scenes. The consensus is Munich is attractive. And no debate about access to (glorious) nature. Is the consensus also that Berlin isn't a concrete jungle but gritty? That I definitely like. Have seen this mentioned re: Munich but not Berlin...what's the safety factor like? Crime and so on? In Berlin, do you (especially the women) feel safe walking anywhere at any hour? Have to say that Japan - even Tokyo - are fairly unbeatable for safety any time...and am cognizant of not returning to an environment of danger, threats or any real degree of risk. Opinions there?

I've only spent a few days in Berlin but I'll give my opinion. It's HUGE. I think I read that it's area is 5 times that of Paris. A lot of it is under construction. I found the old east Berlin to be rather ugly and thought it still felt communist, although there were little pockets of hipness. With east and west and all the construction, it's very diverse. Some of it may feel like a concrete jungle (east) but you can go to another area that's nice. I'd say it's gritty. There seemed to be a little of everything going on there. It didn't feel as safe to me as Munich but it's still a lot safer than the U.S. Some of the grittiness probably contributes to that. There tend to be more problems with anti-foreigner sentiments in eastern Germany. A German once told me that those feelings were primarily directed at Greeks, Turks, dark people, eastern Europeans, and that if look western European, you probably wouldn't have any problems. (I'm not saying western Europeans should be white!! I'm just saying who the skinhead types target.) Don't know if you'd have problems in Berlin anyway because it seems very diverse.

I just spent 2 weeks in Berlin (mainly east) and what shocked me was that all the local women I met said they felt safe walking around at night (in the central areas and Prenzlauer Berg). I found it hard to get used to! - but they would think nothing of just walking home by themselves in the early hours. I think the areas to avoid are the outer eastern suburbs (Marzahn, Lichtenberg, etc)

Homogenous, whitebread, boring, overgrown village, conservative, strict rules, no crime? You just described Heaven to me. How do I sign up to live there? Berlin sounds like Hell.

Yes, I read about Berlin's construction and unattractive skyline. Am wondering, esp. after Paige's comment, whether Berlin sprawls like Paris (which I've visited) and then some. Is Paris a good comparison in terms of size, building heights and so on? What's the greenery factor like in Berlin? In terms of racism/anti-foreigner sentiment, the attacks seem to come mostly from former East Germans. And the Turks, Greeks, dark-skinned people, as mentioned, are the targets. Otherwise, it sounds like being a foreigner is not a strike against you. That it does not terribly affect how you can move about in society. (Being a foreigner in Japan is a very different experience, I think.) True? <BR>Also, where does this German unfriendliness or coldness I've heard so much about come from?

Berlin isn't as beautiful as Prague, Paris etc. As with many german cities, large parts of the city were rebuilt after the war and especially during the fifties and sixties little concern was given to looks. <BR> <BR>Berlin is not only a city but also a state. This means that it is a bit difficult to define the boundaries of the city. Within the boundaries of the city state, large green areas with lakes and recreational areas exist. It is possible to technically live in Berlin but actually be away from the city. Still I wouldn't call Berlin a sprawl as for example L.A. A large percentage of the people lives in flats and is quite close to the city centre instead of living in a sprawling suburbia. In comparison to Paris, Berlin has a smaller population. Still Berlin is too large to get around without public transportation or a car. <BR>

There seems to be a problem with posting large messages, so it comes in several parts: <BR> <BR>According to a recent study, racist attacks are clearly higher in the former east Germany than in west Germany. Berlin as a whole has similar statistics as the western states but I don't know whether some parts of Berlin are especially dangerous. According to the study, anti-foreign sentiments are higher in places with few foreigners than in places with a high percentage of immigrants. In east Germany, anti-foreigner sentiments are directed to a great extend against the former contract workers of the GDR, especially Africans and Vietnamese. <BR> <BR>But I would like to add that about 9% of the population in Germany are foreigners. They live mainly in the west and mainly in cities. I guess that in a typical west german city at least 15% of the population are immigrants or their children. Germany has a much higher immigratiuon rate than other large european countries and will continue to do so. It's not as if people coming to Germany encounter a society unused to foreigners. <BR> <BR>I know several Americans and British living in Germany and none of them had any problems. Neither did any of my indian and chinese co-workers at the university encounter any problems they didn't have in the USA. (Actually american visas etc. were much more problematic.) I don't know whether their experience is representative since Bonn is a very safe town with little social problems. <BR> <BR>

As for Americans being accepted into the society, I see only the problem of the language barrier. This can be a serious problem if you decide to live in a small village because you want to rent an affordable house. The point is that many Germans deciding to move to the country find out that they don't like to live there because they can't cope with the restrictions and the difficulty to integrate themselves into the village lifestyle. In case that you also have problems with the communication, it's easy to imagine that you become isolated and really dislike your stay. <BR> <BR>In my opinion, cities are the better choice (this of course depends upon your personality). There will be a lot of native english speaking expats and also a lot of Germans speaking english. I don't know what job you will take but for example within natural sciences at german universities a knowledge of english is simply a must. Publications and talks are often in english and I don't know of anyone who doesn't speak english well enough to at least discuss his work. Still it makes things easier if you speak german. <BR> <BR>In my opinion, Germans are more reserved than many other nationalities. The important point is that Germans take much longer to make contact with you than you might be used from somewhere else. This doesn't mean that they react negatively to someone else trying to make contact but as long as you don't take the initiative, they will take their time. The same applies to all buisiness. In a shop or a restaurant, people will assume that you want your distance as long as you don't show the opposite. For example, you can go to a bakery for years without getting a personal word until some event changes the relationship. From that moment, the people in the bakery will greet you with a smile and chat with you. But this simply doesn't happen automatically. <BR> <BR>Another point is the more formal language. I would never call someone I've met only two or three times a friend as an American might do. Instead of friend, love or hate, Germans use acquaintance, like and dislike as long as they don't really mean it. The use of first names is another point although it is by now much more common to automatically use first names in private than a few decades ago. But in buisiness enviroments, the use of family names is common. <BR>

How reserved people are, varies between regions. I'm from the Rhineland and some people from here consider places like Hamburg difficult to adjust since the people are too stiff. Berlin is notoriously rude and many people consider the "famous" humour of the Berliners nothing but bad manners. <BR> <BR>In case that you aren't fixed upon Berlin or Munich, you might consider Cologne as an alternative. It offers quite a lot and I think that the atmosphere is more relaxed than in Berlin and more open than in Munich. But on the other hand, my opinion might just be local patriotism. <BR>