NeoPatrick

ROTFLMAO.

Yes, we can always count on you to try to make it a "put down" of tourists or Americans. I was trying to guess exactly how you would manage to do that this time. Good for you, Kerouac.

Yes, I think we were talking about ordering in a restaurant, not making it for home, so trying to discuss how someone would prepare it easily at home instead of presenting it the classic way in a restaurant really doesn't mean much. But you've really thrown a curve at me here. You yourself were talking about "basic" French restaurants and brasseries. I always thought those were mostly for the simple "classic" dishes, not the "difficult" ones you now seem to have switched your attention to. So are you now saying most French wouldn't dream of ordering "simple meals" in a brasserie or basic French restaurant? I think you're totally wrong, sorry.

And if you are trying to shame us tacky Americans about ordering something so "touristy" as boeuf bourgignon in a restaurant in France -- it isn't going to work. There is NO shame in ordering the most classic and traditional dishes of a country when one is visiting. And despite what you try to make us think, we should NOT be ashamed that we are visiting. And guess what. We won't even make fun of YOU if YOU come to the US and order a steak or a hamburger and maybe apple pie in one of our restaurants.

analogue

I'm no expert on the dish so I just googled "BOEUF BOURGUIGNON" in the photo section and just about every picture was different but mostly just normal stew - far too many carrots on certain pictures.

Mamaw

Thanks for all the great posts. I'm drooling thinking of eating stew and slopping it up american style with a piece of french bread. Sorry, I'm just an american tourist and not ashamed to try the local cuisine and ask all the silly questions about it.

And since I own a restaurant I can likely make it right there as well, BUT, I want to eat it in France. Their way. I will also be in Brittney as well as Paris so I plan on looking for this dish everywhere we eat. I have no problem ordering 2-3 dishes to try. And I can eat like a champ, especially when I have been walking all day.

Patrick, I always read your posts and I am amazed at your way with words. I envy your style. But what does ROTFLMAO mean?

tod, thanks for the address to the restaurant where you ejnoyed the BB, mmmmmmm, I can't wait.

kerouac

Patrick is laughing his ass off because he hasn't taken his medication today. Therefore, the typical paranoid reaction and his reading things into my statement that I never said. But not to worry -- he is harmless.

He even thinks that Au Pied de Cochon is a typical brasserie. Parisians consider it to be one of the top restaurants in Paris (not the gourmet guides, of course).

kerouac

As a tribute to you, Patrick, I copied and pasted your messages to the Thorn Tree Refuge site -- they will absolutely love it there.

It is a real tribute to you, and I am not joking. Irascibility is cherished there.

maitaitom

We just made the Barefoot Contessa's Beef Bourguignon recipe (Barefoot In Paris Cookbook) a couple of weeks ago and it was excellent. It also takes about 1/2 the time as other Beef Bourguignon recipes (I believe a friend of ours says the recipe is on-line).

On another note, I had a great Beef Bourguignon at Chez Fernand in Paris last year, and the pieces of beef were bite-sized (at least after a couple of glasses of champagne they seemed bite-sized).

NeoPatrick

Just a couple websites that list Pied au Cochon as a "BRASSERIE" -- most of them calling it "one of the top brasseries in Paris:

http://www.paris-restaurants.net/bra...s-in-paris.htm
www.shuttle-paris.com/paris-brasseries.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/200...anddrink.paris
www.come-to-paris.com/menusbrasseries.html

Meanwhile have you ever heard of Fodors? Their review of Pied au Cochon starts with "One of the few remnants of this neighborhood's raucous all-night past -- Les Halles was the city's wholesale market until the late 1960s -- this >>>>brasserie<<<<<<& lt; founded in 1946 still draws both a French and foreign crowd."

So I guess I'm in pretty good company. But nevertheless --even if you insist it is a restaurant and not a brasserie, what does that have to do with anything? I think you're splitting hairs now -- and you do it so well. Does it make a difference to our discussion as to whether YOU and YOUR friends call it a brasserie or a restaurant?

And yes, Mamaw, ROTFLMAO stands for "rolling on the floor laughing my ass off".

Meanwhile, what is "irascible" or angry about my posts? One who is angry hardly doubles over with laughter at the silly pretentiousness of people trying to prove one wrong about tiny and unimportant details. Or does "irascibility" have a different meaning in French?

CopperandJade

NeoPatrick,
I have enjoyed boeuf bourguignon many, many times in restaurants in Paris. Each time the beef was served in bite sized pieces. I never have had the misfortune of gazing at a "hunk" of beef. Merci le Dieu.

What puzzles me, NeoPatrick, is your hostility and anger towards Kerouac. I do not feel that he tries to prove us wrong about small details, or is trying to "shame us tacky Americans". Or, in your immortal words << Yes, we can always count on you (Kerouac) to try to make it a "put down" of tourists or Americans.>>

Kerouac has lived in Paris for 35 years and appears to enjoy, in his fashion, contributing to Fodor's. We appreciate this. He is , after all, French. I welcome the input of a person who is French, especially if I am travelling to France! This has often joyously enhanced my experiences in the past.
The question is, why do you, NeoPatrick, resent it?

CopperandJade

And so, NeoPatrick...I have read and appreciated your many posts. I do not understand your attempts to diminish Kerouac's writings. They are often quite wonderful and we all enjoy them.

robjame

maitaitom - my favorite is barefoot contessa's recipe as well, although I didn't realize it only takes half the time! LOL.
It takes us about an hour to assemble and then we use a slow cooker. Love that recipe.
MUST use a good Burgundy, hopefully the same type you will drink with the meal.

Neo - interesting you mention the big chunks! We have had BB many times in France, mostly in the Burgundy region. For what it is worth it always was served in one large piece (chunk). A couple of times the meat was beef cheeks.

We remarked about this in fact you can find my notes and pictures in my Burgundy food reviews.

NeoPatrick

I do not feel I am trying to diminish Kerouac's writings, EXCEPT when he wants to completely challenge what people say about their own experiences. Here were a number of people mentioning that boeuf bourguignon is sometimes in big hunks instead of bite sized pieces. Robjame who has often given great details of their Parisian eating adventures mentions in once again in just the last post before this one. No one was making a big deal out of it, myself included, but I have seen it that way several times and obviously many others have as well. He mentioned that he's never been served it that way -- fine -- but apparently with the implied meaning that since he's THERE, then he knows (surprisingly he didn't add those specific words this time, but he often does -- things like "who would know, a tourist or a person who lives here?". Although, ironically just a few posts later he tells us that he and others in France rarely if ever would even order it in a restaurant, so DUH, why would he be served it that way when he doesn't even order it? And THEN he says that since most French would never order it in a restaurant, we visitors are the experts. Fine. That's why WE VISITORS were talking about OUR experiences. What was the point in refuting the idea to begin with and then go on and on in more and more detail discussing home preparation and how the meat markets market it? Was all of that aimed at trying to prove that the rest of us are liars, because it really couldn't be served that way? It seems an awful lot of effort just to try to say "you crazy tourists are wrong -- that's NOT the way it would be served", especially since if often clearly IS.

I'm all for Kerouac's many posts and the much great information that he gives particularly about Paris and France in general, but I must say I do get tired of how he frequently manages to put in a knife and twist it one way or another about ANYTHING that any American tourist says. His put downs of American tourists and Americans in general really do get old. This was just another good example, and one he doesn't want to give up on. Did anyone notice that he didn't merely say HE'D never been served it that way, he had to turn it to imply that only tourists would order such a dish anyway -- one of his usual digs at tourists and/or Amerericans in general. I mean really, does he honestly expect us to believe there aren't thousands and thousands of French people who have ordered boeuf bourgignon in restaurants? These digs are in many, many of his posts.

Even when I casually mention I've been served it that way in a famous brasserie (as it's listed in dozens of websites, even Fodor's own recommendations), he feels it necessary to say about me "He even thinks that Au Pied de Cochon is a typical brasserie. Parisians consider it to be one of the top restaurants in Paris (not the gourmet guides, of course)." See what I mean? Who even cares whether most would consider it a brasserie or a restaurant -- which has no effect on the entire discussion at hand? There's only one reason he brought that up -- to try to discredit me! But oddly enough at the same time he is apparently discrediting practically every website list of Parisian brasseries and our "parents", Fodors themselves. I'm not the one (or certainly not the ONLY one) who is refuting everything he says, but the other way around. Read back through all the posts here and I think you'll see what I mean.

NeoPatrick

Oh, and just for the record, there is NO hostility and NO anger for Kerouac. Just because I point out the foolishness of someone's attempts at put-downs certainly doesn't mean I'm angry. In fact, they kind of amuse me. That's hardly anger.

kerouac

Your problem, Patrick, is that you see imaginary put downs.

Not to worry. As for the 'brasserie' word, it is abused in France just as the 'bistro' word is abused in the English speaking world. Just because restaurants put either word in their name does not make them the real item.

Pvoyageuse

I am French. I have never heard of boeuf bourguignon being served in bit chunks. I do understand (I hope) what Kerouac means when he says that no French would not order it in a restaurant (I wouldn't either).
If you go to a restaurant to "enjoy" food, you tend to order something that you can't make at home or something special. Boeuf bourguignon is considered everyday food, there is nothing fancy about it and it is often made with low cuts of meat. It does not convey the image of a sophisticated dish.


This is different (at least in French minds) from feeding yourself which is what we all do when we are working and have little time.

And yes, you are more likely to find boeuf bourguignon on the menu of brasseries, auberges, small joints (and in Burgundy) than in a fancy Paris restaurant.

Leburta

I'm reminded of a recent Super Bowl party at which the hostess served a wonderful version of Beef Bourguignon, which she learned while living in Paris. This was a truly "civilized" way to watch the Super Bowl!

kerouac

Better than nachos! Oh damn, now I'm going to discover that NP is the nacho king of Florida!

Padraig

Can we now move on to discussing the one correct recipe for Irish Stew?

kerouac

You mean bourguignon without the wine???

GSteed

Cultural spin? Restaurants often supply 'exotic' names to simple local dishes. Beef B is simply beef stew. It was originally conceived by housewives (around the world) to use up poor cuts of meat or leftover trimmings. The meat pieces are small because they come from scraps or are cut from inedible meat pieces. Chances are that the sauce is the main flavor/feature of the dish. I knew a restaurant in Wausau, Wisconsin that served the best Beef B or beef stew ever on Mondays. It was made using the trimmings from the weekend T-bones, sirloins and porterhouses! Whatever you call it, eat it and enjoy.

StCirq

I'm just confused about why Craig Clairborne thought boeuf was a feminine noun. Who ever heard of Boeuf Bourgignonne? Or is that another dish entirely?