Also, was the transaction made during banking hours? Most illegal scanners are attached when the bank is closed. If you search the internet, you can see what the various attachments look like. It's much safer to use an ATM when the bank is open for business.

NYC, it was just off of San Marco, in fact on the street with that name. The bank was on a corner and the ATM was outside. I don't recall the name of the bank and I'd have to sift through my travel stuff to find the receipt.

NYC, during banking hours, on a Thursday. What surprises me most, I think, is that the "card" was used the next day in the USA.

There seems to be supposition here that a scamming device fitted to an ATM in Venice was the cause of the problem.

Why then would the thieves use the information to get money in the U.S.? Surely, they would want cash in Italy?

I have not been the victim of this sort of crime. The reports I have read in the U.K. refer to card details being used in the Far East, where accomplices of the scammers were based.

<i>There seems to be supposition</i>

and a good supposition given that two different card holders with two different banks were hit at the same time.

These things happen over and over again. Not only in the major tourist destinations but also in towns which never see more than 10 tourists a week. Had been a big scam in my friends' town in Ireland, right on highstreet, a regular ATM in the bank building.
My somewhat random and probably useless answer to this problem is that I try to withdraw cash not on busy main streets or pedestrian city center streets with many folks around. My guess is that the thugs want as much as they can get and probably won't like less frequented ATM in less populated areas. Or will not try to mess around with ATMs which are inside gas stations and under more supervision than just by a lousy in ATM cam. Probably just a nice try though

.....What bank in Venice was it, and where was it located? Was the ATM machine inside the bank or was it accessible from the sidewalk?.....

More to the point. Did you report this to to Venice police department? You won't be the only victims

chartley....this is the 21st century....as soon as a card is cmpromisedf, there are web sites where these crooks can come up with the numbers and info they need to counterfeit the card, slip it in an ATM anywhere in the world and get cash.

The more usual scam is to get a debit card numbe (not so in this case) and use a counterfeit card to steal whatever either via the internet or even at a pos sale place. The ATM card requires a pin and can usually only be used at an ATM but there is a movement being pushed by merchants because of lower fees to have more people usedebit cards directly on the debit card networks.

But we can't let this unfortunate incident change the way we do business. For example, I laugh when people tell me not to use my credit cards for small purchases because the more you use it, the greater the chances are it can be compromised. I may use my credit card 40 or 50 or even more times a month. I'm not going to change that because I've had my credit card number stolen about 3 or 4 times in the past 20 years and it was traumatic each time to be called by the bank and asked if I had just authorized an $8,000 charge the day after I dined in an American restaurant with the archaic system of handing over your credit card to a waiter to run it through a credit card terminal in a back room. In Europe, they bring the terminal to yo0ur table and the card is in your sight the whole time. Should be mandated in the USA.

The same is true for ATM withdrawals...one tries to be as casreful as possible including covering the key pad when entering the pin number (the 5 key almost always has a raised dot to orient your hand)...but does it mean instead of using an ATM for cash, I'm gong to start carrying cash? As I said upstream, the best way to handle this is with a specific checking account devoted soley to travel. One with no monthly fee, free ATM withdrawals, no foreign transaction fees and one that rebates fees chaarged by ATM network to access a machine other than yur bank. Keep $1.01 in the account. Before leaving, I transfer from my main bank say $50 to cover ATM withdrawals....if I need more, easy enough to transfer money via the internet but if they compromise the account, nothing is lost. Almost the same as pick pocketing an empty pocket!

In any event, this can happen while travelling and it can happen down the street from your office. Just, as always, try to have a bak up plan!

Hi Char,

>Why then would the thieves use the information to get money in the U.S.?<

The Euro is falling against the USD.

There were things they wanted to buy that were cheaper in the US.

They expected that it would be less likely to set off alarms if they looted a US account from the US.

They were Italian thieves on vacation in the States.

Hey Mel,

Thanks for the heads up.

Questions:

1. How does one go about finding a bank in the US that will issue ATM cards with chip and pin?

2. Would using an ATM machine inside a bank lessen the chances of this kind of occurrence?
Any other tips on choosing one particular ATM machine as opposed to others? What do you all think of Cowboy's suggestion to use machines in less trafficked areas of a city or town?

So sorry this happened to you and like others, I appreciate the warning. Shame on your bank, though!

>>> We have a $500 limit and they won't raise it (well, they won't raise it for US, for scammers it's a matter of "help yourself."<<<

Someone higher up at the bank should be informed they are violating banking their own agreement or the software isn't catching it. You can't be the only one that this has happened to.

I used to have a travel only savings account with my daughter and ATM only cards (not debit). We only put money in it when we would be traveling (not together) and it wasn't tied to other accounts (no overdrafts covered by other accounts). A software change two years ago prevented me from accessing it because it was a savings account, not checking. It was no longer recognized as a primary account. My daughter was able to transfer my ATM card to my checking account, but I would really prefer to open another travel only account. They also upgraded their cards to ATM/debit and I wasn't able to get just ATM anymore. The rules are different for debit cards.

**Your loss is limited to $50 if you notify the financial institution within two business days after learning of loss or theft of your card or code.
But you could lose as much as $500 if you do not tell the card issuer within two business days after learning of loss or theft.
If you do not report an unauthorized transfer that appears on your statement within 60 days after the statement is mailed to you, you risk unlimited loss on transfers made after the 60-day period. That means you could lose all the money in your account plus your maximum overdraft line of credit, if any.**

Thanks for the timely warning, sounds like you are very level headed.

ek....as of this moment in time, I don't think any bank in the USA is issuing a debit card with chip and pin...the USA is very reluctantly being pushed into the 21st century as some banks are now issuing credit cards with the emv chip. However in most cases, these are chip and signature cards which I don't think would resolve the issue of fraudulent ATM use.

As far as yur second question is concerned, this scam has been around for years; the equipment is becoming more sophisticated and one would suspect it is much less likely to occur in a bank with the ATM's inside during banking hours but is that a fool proof way to avoid this kind of fraud? I doubt it. As I said, take a look at the ATM to try to convince yourself it has not been tampered with and cover up the key pad completely when entering your pin. Is this fool proof? No according to the OP but as I said, it shouldn't prohibit you from using ATM's and the like. If it happens, yu deal with it. But I don't think you can or should lay away at night worrying about the possibility.

thanks for your story.

when i was in venice in june i only used the atm at deutsche bank next to the jp tod store in san marco.

i reasoned that since deutsche bank was one of the world's leading banks they would have very good security.

thin

There are a lot of unanswered questions in this thread, and I suppose many will remain unanswered. This is the internet, after all. People can type whatever they want to type.

If this had happened to me, the ATM receipt would be next to my keyboard as I typed this thread. I have every ATM receipt from every trip I've ever taken, filed in the Travel section of my file cabinet. I can retrieve a receipt from 1990 in less than three minutes. The only way to help fellow travelers with ATM fraud and abuse is to report vulnerable ATM locations. And to put those banks on notice.

The OP says the bank was "open" but where is the proof? Many banks in Italy take those famous extended lunches. How can we be sure the OP knew the bank was open? Unless the "skimmer" was attached to the machine from the "inside," which suggests an "inside" job (which is ridiculous if you think about it), we have to assume someone placed the skimmer on the face of the machine. I'm sure it happens, but it takes a lot of hubris to risk being caught during "open" business hours. Reliable skimmers are not cheap.

So that begs the question, did the OP look for security cameras above and around the ATM he/she chose? Did the OP analyze the card port before inserting his card? Skimmers have been around for a very long time. There are plenty of photos on the internet to educate careful travelers on what to look for.

Hiding your PIN code won't do anything to protect you from a Skimmer device. You have to learn what to look for BEFORE you insert your card.

So, I would advise:

1. Learn to identify Skimmer devices.
2. Check for security cameras above the ATM machine.
3. Make sure the bank is open before using an ATM, and only use an ATM attached to a bank.
4. Try to locate a bank that houses ATM machines in their vestibule, the kind of Italian bank that has to buzz you in to gain entry.
5. If you see something that looks suspicious, go into the bank and ask questions. Someone is bound to speak enough English, who will help you feel more secure about using their machine.

We have switched our banking to a credit union, which has chip and pin cards. Hopefully that gives us a bit more protection.

I'm wondering if the DC perpetrator can be determined from the video security tapes...if, indeed, it were and ATM only, they would have had to use an ATM to withdraw $$ an all that should be traceable.

There was a TV news story a few months ago about how thieves use these 'skimmer' devices on ATM machines. It appears to be easy to do. The advice was to always feel the ATM card slot and make sure it doesn't have a device there. They said it would usually be loose, as the thieves push them into the slot, then come back and pull them out again.

well, this sounds terrible to me and given it happened to both at the same time, I presume it probably is a skimmer or whatever they are called. I think they just sell that info, that's all, and they happened to sell it to someone in the DC area, it is amazing how quickly that could happen. Although if MelJ lives in the Wash DC area, that sort of points that it would be too much of a coincidence and would make me wonder. Still, the friend having the same thing happen seems clear.

I think telling banks about travel can be problematic as when I tell my CC about it (with mixed success, unfortunately, as Cap One has still blocked charges when I told them twice), I want to be able to make purchases online in advnce, tickets, hotel reservations, etc., so it isn't just a matter of me physically being in a place. In fact, it makes me annoyed that the CS people on the line don't seem to comrephend that fact, that with the internet you can buy things online and not have to be there. Although you couldn't with an ATM card, that's true (versus debit), but they probalby have the same measures in place for both. So I don't really blame them for not blocking the card in the US. Besides, who knows, you could have come home unexpectedly for some reason and needed money.

However, exceeding the limits they have seems really strange, what kind of incompetent bank is this (I am not a customer of PNC, thank goodness), that would just be a computer program. Although since they are restoring the money, I would be relieved.

I've read articles about skimmers attached to those machines you sign CC charges in stores or something really incredible, as I found it astounding that crooks could come into a store and install a machine and no one in the store personnel would have a clue or stop them.

NYC: What is your problem? If you chose not to believe me because "this is the internet, anyone can type whatever they want," I could care less and I wonder why you posted, except to show your snarky side. I've been on this board since the late 1990s so I would hope my credibiity would be as clear as it can be on the internet. Paranoia will destroy ya.

I gave a lot of information. More than I would have liked (such as the name of my bank) because you asked. You would have your ATM slip by your computer, you say? Why? This happened three weeks ago. I traveled for two more weeks. I'm still unpacking.

After you asked me if I took the withdrawal during banking hours and I said, yes, you now ask how I knew the bank was open because they take siestas. Okay, ya got me. It was around 11:00 in the morning. No idea if they were open. Just assumed by the time that they were. Good grief.

Ms. Prism: I didn't report it to the bank because I didn't know about it for over a week. When I did find out, I told my bank (and the fraud dept) where it was and they have my ATM slip so I would hope that, dept to dept they would alert the bank.

Thanks to all who said they gleamed something useful from this thread. That was my point. I sure didn't enjoy reliving the experience but I think it's important to give a heads-up when something like this happens.