I was going to tack this on to a previous thread, but they seem to mix CC and ATMs, so here we go again. This applies ONLY to ATMs. Don't post CC stuff again!

I just opened a new bank account at Bank of the West so I would have a second ATM card as backup when I'm in Europe. (Actually I will use the CU and the bank, just to see what happens.)

Received a notice with the first statement that for foreign ATM conversions, Visa/MC would use that strange rate we have all been notified of. Then, that as of June 1, the bank would pass on the 1% Visa/MC conversion charge to us without stating it, so that if our transaction equaled $100 in Visa money, it would appear on our statements as $101.

Yikes! Does that mean that the bank has been absorbing that fee all this time? Or what? Am I going to make out like a bandit in May?

I've oftened wondered if there's any difference in conversion between an ATM only card versus a visa/mastercard debit card. Does anyone know? I use an ATM only card.

LVSUe,

I am TRULY counting on you and other Fodor's posters to go and report back to the rest of us the "down and dirty" truth of the matter.

Who knows what your bank means by this!! The best way, really the only way to know, is for you to share your story upon your return. And, then, of course, it will be what was true for your bank and CU, not necessarily mine or the next guy's.

Really not much one can do about it. Just like the value of the dollar, grin and bear it. And above all else, these trips are wonderful experiences, so just go and enjoy yourself! And remember to post when you return.

Well what I can tell you is that last year when I had a BofA ATM only card and it wouldn't work at a number of banks, a manager at a Deutsche Bank in Rome told me that it wouldn't work because it had no Visa logo -- in other words it wasn't also a debit card. That's when he also said that another "new" thing was that now that VISA services was doing all their ATM foreign transactions, Visa was also adding a 1% charge to them. So in other words, the ATM only card IF it worked apparently wouldn't have had a 1% charge, but as a VISA related debit card it did. At least that's the way I interpret his remarks.

Hi, LVSue! You will probably be charged a withdrawl fee by the foreign bank where the ATM is situated. In addition, you will be charged a transaction fee by your home bank for having used an ATM out of their network system. Between this 'n that, you may be charged about 2-3%, or sometimes a flat fee of $3-6, for each foreign withdrawl. Many Fodorites have indicated that they now do one large withdrawl every several days, instead of smaller daily withdrawls. You asked whether you will make out like a bandit. No, you won't; your bank, however, certainly will. Enjoy the trip; do a trip report on it afterwards that we can all read. Bon voyage!

I can describe what I have experienced outside of the US when I used my ATM cards. I have two checking accounts that I use for travel purposes, one is with Bank of America, the other with Wachovia.

BOA and Wachovia both allow me two off net transactions per month at no extra charge. If I go to an affiliate bank, I am not charged an extra fee at any time. For example, in the UK, Barclays Bank is a Bank of America affiliate and cash withdrawals with my ATM card are not trreated as off net transactions.

In Canada, Scotiabank had the same arrangements with BOA. If I used Scotiabank's ATMs I was "on net."

If I exceed the limit of 2 monthly off net transactions, I got charged a flat fee of $2.00 per transaction regardless of the amount withdrawn.

I think it is important to know which foreign banks are affiliated with your bank so you can minimize off net transaction fees. I probably saved $20 by using affiliates.

Now, about the exchange rate and Visa charges. I kept my receipts and checked the wholesale bank rate of exchange on the dates I used my cards. As near as I can tell I was charged the wholesale bank rate of exchange plus 1%.

In prior years I did the same thing, and got the same results as I did this past summer.

To append my previous post, let me describe my experience with debit cards (check cards). In 1998 and 1999, I had both an ATM card and a debit card for Bank of America. There were two instances where the ATM card failed but the debit card worked.

Since 1999, I have not experienced any problems with either card. I take the debit card along as a backup in case some voracious ATM decides to eat my main card.

I did have a credit card refused once, but that is a whole 'nother story.

I'm sorry. As usual, try as I may, I managed to leave off information. My bank card has the M/C logo; new CU has the Visa; both are debit cards (I changed from only ATM after I had some trouble in France last year and after reading Patrick's posts). Neither my bank nor CU will be charging extra fees: bank does not charge off-net (though it is associated with BNP and I will try to use that at least once to see if there is any difference); CU allows 4 free w/d/month.

John, as I understand it, European banks are prohibited by law from charging for transactions. The rest of you, is that still true?

But why would the bank say that as of June 1 it will be adding the V/MC 1% charge? I can't believe that they were absorbing it all along. I simply believe that now they are admitting they have been adding it.

At any rate, I will keep tabs on the results and report back. I am truly not obsessive about getting the best rate; I would just like to be leveled with.

What's the best place to get a history on FX? I have been using oanda.com (great place for printing up a "cheat sheet&quot, but I've seen others mentioned here.

"But why would the bank say that as of June 1 it will be adding the V/MC 1% charge? I can't believe that they were absorbing it all along. I simply believe that now they are admitting they have been adding it."

Well, there have been many postings here about the lawsuit involving Amex foreign transaction charges. These "hidden" foreign transaction charges must now be disclosed. Therefore, I think it is safe to assume that many of our banks/credit card companies have had "hidden" foreign transaction charges for awhile that are now being disclosed. Also, some of these charges are being increased. And the way Visa calculates the foreign currency exchange is different, seems like whatever index they wish to use (the language reads very vaguely, which gives the banks/finance companies all the discretion to complete the transaction however they wish). All very mysterious. Many changes went into effective 4/1, so as Fodorites return from their travels, I am sure we will gain some good information.

LVsue,
I also have gotten the same notice from the B of W. The essense of the notice was that they had not been explicit about what they have been doing when you use foreign ATMs. They are now merely stating what they have been doing all along.
I have been verifying historical exchange rate given at:

http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/

against the B of W statement. As long as I can remember, they have been charging me 1% fee that VISA, now MC, has been charging. These charges never appear separately on the statement. Some people think because you don't see them, there is no fee. Not so; they are buried inside the exchange rate.

Hi LV,

Visa and MC have always added one point to the bank rate. Your bank is only now admitting it.

>European banks are prohibited by law from charging for transactions. <

You are correct.

Until about the middle 1990's, the regulations of the shared teller networks had rules prohibiting banks from surcharging withdrawals from their ATM machines. Georgia and another state or two passed laws prohibiting Cirrus and plus from enforcing that rule in Georgia and banks in Georgia began the practice of charging non customers for using their ATM machines. The pressure built and cirrus and plus were forced to relax that rule but what was retained was a prohibition on surcharging cards from outside the country of the machine; thus US cardholders using a bank ATM on the cirrus and/or plus networks do not pay surcharges to use these machines. What you pay is whatever your bank wishes to rip you off with and that fee varies from what it should be i.e. $0 to as much as $5 per transaction.

Now some Canadians claim this isn't so and point to examples of being charged for using bank ATM's in the US with their Canadian cards; perhaps the reason being the transaction clear through other networks than cirrus and/or plus such as star or NYCE which do not have this prohibition.

In addition, it is claimed and I don't doubt this is true, that some non bank ATM's charge fees for using their machines...don't know how they get away with that.

Of course as we can see with the shenanigans visa is pulling and the 1% surcharge they now put on for all foreign transactions even in US currency, what is true today may not be true the day after tomorrow.

My guess is that there has always been the 1% conversion fee added to all transactions by VISA & MC. Sounds like your bank is now adding 1% on to that. From reading other comments, some banks add up to 3%.

Luckily, my bank/credit card company does not add on anything additional to the normal 1% conversion fee (YET).

The banks are not charging NEW fees - they have been required by law to DISCLOSE the fees that they have been charging all along. If your disclosure notification says 1% will be passed along, that is the basic network fee that no one can escape.

Some of the fees are new....the 1% on foreign transactions in US dollars is new and of course unwarranted..in addition they have become much more vague as to just what rate they add 1% to...no longer do they say they use the interbank rate + 1% but rather some vague language about what rates are available to them.

You may also wish to look at www.visa.com/exchangerates to try to figure out what is going on..I've read the site and it still seems like double talk to me.

If the issue has been debated to the satisfaction of others, could someone pause for a moment to explain to me what "talking in cursive" means?

A figurative expression, clearly. I know what cursive writing is and where "cursive" comes from (the Latin verb "to run&quot

Does it mean talking nonsense? talking confusingly? talking misleadingly?

I don't have a debit card, only an ATM card from my bank so it doesn't have that VISA affiliation and doesn't have that added VISA fee. However, I have also been told something along these same lines recently, only from one of my credit cards. They didn't describe it very well, either, and couldn't really explain what they meant -- something about how you wouldn't be charged that one pct any more from Mastercard, it will only be from us instead. This was a card that doesn't add any fee of its own on top of the one pct MC fee.

I haven't used that card abroad yet, but the best I could figure out is what the above posts say -- there is no real change in fees, it was just not visible before as it was in the conversion rate and now they are going to have to itemize it separately so you see it.

xyz123: ok, VISA is adding a new 1% fee called &quot;International Service Assessment&quot; but they are eliminating their prior 1% fee called &quot;multicurrency conversion fee&quot;- so, in effect, <b>they have always charged a 1% fee</b>.

<u>Direct quote from the website you gave:</u>
Has Visa changed its fee structure for international transactions?
Effective April 1, Visa will assess a 1% International Service Assessment (ISA). The ISA is not a currency conversion fee but rather a charge to issuing banks when transactions use the global payment system. The ISA will be charged to Issuers on same currency, cross-border transactions like DCC. Visa will no longer charge issuing banks the 1% Multicurrency conversion fee. It is important to note that Issuing banks determine the cardholder pricing structure. Some banks charge mark-ups for same-currency cross-border transactions; others do not. If you frequently travel internationally, the different pricing structures charged by issuing banks should be one of the factors you take into consideration when you select the Visa card that best suits your needs.

Sue, I'm sorry as I may have responded about something different than what you meant. Are you referring to an ATM-only card that you have from this bank, not a debit card with the VISA logo on it? If so, I guess that is similar to my card which has no VISA/MC logo on it, but I have never been informed by my bank that there can be a VISA charge on my ATM-only card. Now, maybe they do just because I know the networks that it uses are owned by VISA/MC, so maybe there was a built-in one pct ATM network use fee (ie, CIRRUS/PLUS) on this card I was never aware of.

If so, there's nothing one can do about it. One can assume no bank ever absorbed any cost.

Here's another interesting explanation about the change of the 1% fee from VISA.
http://www.nationalbank.co.nz/promos...cards.htm#what

Why is there no Visa currency conversion charge?

Prior to 1 April 2005 Visa applied the currency conversion charge directly to the cardholder. From 1 April 2005 Visa are charging their currency conversion charge directly to the Bank.
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Of course, it's doubtful that banks will not pass that 1% right along to the consumer.