Wow. I know this is a sensitive subject, but it seems a number of people are NOT reading LVSue's original question and/or are giving bad or WRONG information.

First of all, Budman. LVSue has specifically said
"Don't post CC stuff again!" She is ONLY asking about ATM cards. When you talk about Visa always adding 1% and other banks adding up to 3%, surely you are talking about credit cards NOT ATM cards, aren't you? I have never heard that in the past (until recently) there were additional 1% charges added to credit card withdrawals and I have NEVER heard of banks adding 3% to ATM withdrawals.

And JohnWM, when you say:
"You will probably be charged a withdrawl fee by the foreign bank where the ATM is situated."
I have no idea what you're talking about. I have used foreign ATMs for years hundreds of times and have never ever been charged any fee any time by a foreign bank for using my ATM card there. In fact, I have always understood it is forbidden by European bank law for them to charge you anything for using their ATM. Although your own bank may charge you a fee for using a foreign ATM.

Please folks, this issue is confusing enough (and tedgale, I too am confused by what "talking in cursive" means) without giving out wrong information!

And now after my little lecture, I must apologize for a mistake in my post.

In the part to Budman, I meant to say:
" I have never heard that in the past (until recently) there were additional 1% charges added to <ATM> withdrawals and I have NEVER heard of banks adding 3% to ATM withdrawals.
I mistakenly used the term <credit card withdrawals> instead of ATM withdrawals, the very mistake I was accusing Budman of mixing up.

ATM cards whether they are Visa/MC debit cards or non-debit cards that use the Cirrus/Plus network have always charged the 1% MC/Visa conversion fee. The Plus/Cirrus ATM system is run by MC/Visa, hence their usual fees. This fee was just never overtly shown on your bank statements but bundled in your conversion amount. What you are seeing now is in response to CC lawsuits about undeclared or hidden fees.
In additon to the foreign currency conversion charge, your own bank may charge an out-of-network per use fee. As several posters noted, these fees can be avoided by using overseas banks affiliated to your own.

European BANK ATMs do not charge fees for "foreign" ATM card use but there are many charging ATMs out there. These are usually "convenience" ATMs (convenience stores, post office, casinos, etc). You must look for the bank logo and also read the ATM screen carefully if you want to avoid local ATM fees. Charging ATMs are supposed to disclose their fee before completion of transaction.

Patrick, I understand what the original poster said about CC's, but when you use an ATM machine, whether it be an ATM card, a Credit Card, or a VISA/MC Debit Card, you are drawing local currency. In all cases, there is a 1% conversion fee to convert your $$$ into the local currency.

Obviously, all 3 types of cards are associated with a banks and/or CU's. It's my understanding that the banks/CU's may or may not charge additional fees. The 1%, 3%, $1, $5, or whatever other charge the bank/CU's apply is in addition to the conversion fee.

If the 1% conversion fee is now charged to the financial institution and the financial institution is now passing on that fee to the user, same soup, different bowl.

Patrick, thanks for the lecture. I need a good spanking every now and then.

Budman, you may be right, but it is still my understanding that what you are referring to were the 1% fees charged by VISA or some other services who handled the transactions. But it is my understanding that until recently many large banks did not employ such a service for ATM transactions -- which were handled directly between banks and did NOT have any charge at all either hidden or otherwise over the daily bank exchange rate. But more and more banks are NOW using Visa services to handle their ATM transactions as well as credit card charges and YES those do involve a 1% charge, again whether it shows or not has been up to the bank.

But again, I've never heard of a BANK adding a percentage charge to ATM withdrawals -- only some sort of set fee. That 3% additional ONLY applies to credit card transactions so far as I need.

PS. Sorry, I hope you'll be able to sit down soon.

Patrick,
Banks have actually used the VISA/MC network for ages to handle the ATM conversions. If your ATM card has Plus/Cirrus on it, it is part of the Visa/MC network and the same 1% currency conversion fee applied. The difference was it was not disclosed by the banks previously or listed as a separate fee.

Some banks have been adding additional fees over the Plus/Cirrus (MC/Visa) 1% fees. This is in additon to the out-of-network fee. Talk about really gouging the customer! This would be in the fine print disclosure forms they include with your statements.

I know - try 2 different ATM cards and 2 different credit cards, go home and analyze the transactions on your statement, THEN (and only then?) will you know how it works!

My bank always told me that when I used the VISA check card to withdraw cash from an ATM overseas, that there would be NO fee whatsoever from them. Any fee would be levied by the operator of the ATM. With my last statement, I received a notice that stated VISA had been assessing a hidden 1% fee for foreign transactions (ATM included)ie does not appear as a separate charge on the statement.
Effective this month, my bank will begin assessing a 1% "foreign transaction fee" including ATMs and the charge will appear separately. However, the notice claims that the VISA "hidden" 1% fee will end.

This is still a much better deal than cashing in traveler's checks overseas. If you consider the exorbitant fees and usually poor exchange rates involved, you're lucky to get 80 cents on the dollar.

niblette, again I could be wrong, but I think that while Visa was handling SOME ATM transactions -- they weren't handling all of them. This became very clear to me when in Belgium my ATM only card -- no VISA logo -- would not work and a bank manager told me it was because now all Belgium banks were using VISA services for ATM transactions and as a result my card wouldn't work. In other countries some banks were still doing their own direct transactions, which is why I was assuming my card still worked without a debit or VISA connection (or Cirrus or Plus). And the manager at the Deutsche Bank in Rome specifically told me that until very recently there had been no extra charge on their ATM withdrawals, but since VISA services had now taken over that job, there would be a 1% fee added by them. In other words, VISA had not been doing the ATM transactions for them previously and until just last summer, Deutsche Banks did not add even a 1% charge to ATM withdrawals. Now, of course, they do.

Patrick,
What you encountered has to do with the TYPE of card used vs network used. It's the same network whether you use a Plus/Cirrus plain ATM vs Visa-branded debit card. It's just they are forcing you to use a debit card now. Banks have been trying to convert customers over to the debit card instead of the plain ATM card. This is just an example of one of their methods.
I travel very widely and have not yet encountered what you describe. I refuse to get a debit card. I don't like the idea of someone possibly stealing the info and draining my account - all without having to have the PIN. Then having to spend much time and effort to try to get that money back, not to mention aggravation and penalties involved from bounced checks.

Visa and MC own the PLUS and Cirrus networks which are used for ATM transactions. Banks could elect to join to be part of this network, as most do. This is the same network whether it is labelled Plus/Cirrus or VISA/MC on your ATM/debit card. It is because of these networks that ATMs can be used so widely, whether internationally or domestically.

If you think back to the days before Plus/Cirrus were widely used, ATMs could not be used as we are using them now. Traveling as a student a little over 10 years ago, I had a ATM that did not have Plus/Cirrus. It could not be used internationally. Did not understand that until I did some ATM research when I got home.
Subsequently, with another ATM card, I can't use my card at any ATM internationally that's not part of the Plus/Cirrus network. My bank is part of several other networks but Plus/Cirrus are the only ones I've seen overseas.

Hope this clear things up a bit.

"talking in cursive"

I plucked a phrase from my memory that makes absolutely no sense in this situation, but I thought it might attract attention.

In the 70s I taught remedial reading to 9th graders and in junior high at that time we were supposed to encourage/demand that students use handwriting rather than printing. Well, hormones are of course running rampant at that age and one male student grabbed a female in passing, so she turned to him and said, "Reggie, get your #$%@ hands off me!" The room fell silent and all heads turned to me to see what I would do about the foul language. Then a wonderful diplomat piped up with "Oh, Mrs. Wright, Lisa's talking in cursive!" That certainly broke the tension.

niblette, I agree with most of what you're saying, but apparently you haven't traveled in Belgium lately where apparently ALL bank ATMS will only accept a debit card. We tried dozens of ATMs in several cities and were firmly told by a bank manager in Brussels that ALL BELGIUM BANKS now use the VISA services and therefore ATM only cards will NOT work. Period. End of story. And last summer was the first time we encountered the same thing with an ATM only card in Italy, in fact at one ATM where the exact same card had worked perfectly the year before. Previously the bank had used other international bank services for their ATM transactions, but last summer switched to letting VISA international services handle all of them -- hence the change.

This is a new development, and I have now taken by own bank manager's advice and followed the statement on the BankofAmerica website, that there is an IMMEDIATE replacement of all funds into your bank account upon notification of a card being lost or stolen. So I simply no longer worry about that possibility.

Patrick,
One potential problem I see with a debit card is that because it can be used as a credit card without a pin, your card doesn't necessarily have to be lost or stolen for fraud to occur. Am I correct? I recently had my Amex number stolen while abroad (the card itself never left my possession). I didn't realize it until after I returned home and saw a $1800 charge on my online statement for an airline ticket. But since it was a charge card, no money was actually debited from my own personal bank account and I simply had to call Amex to have a temporary credit and new card issued. Now imagine if that had happened with a debit card. Several days would have elapsed until the fraud was detected and in the meantime, your mortgage payment just bounced. I suppose one could open a separate checking account for travel funds only which isn't used for day to day expenses, but that seems like a hassle too. If it's true that Belgian banks will no longer accept ATM only cards, then I'm not sure what the best solution is. But personally, I'm not comfortable with a debit card even at home.

Well, Patty I see what you mean, and we recently had a similar thing with a credit card number being "stolen" although we never lost the card. But the part I don't get is, if you never USE the debit card anywhere except in an ATM machine and it isn't lost or stolen, I'm not sure how anyone could have possibly stolen your number. Unlike a credit card where they got it from a sales receipt, if the debit card never left your hands and was never used as a credit card, I fail to see how anyone could deplete your funds. In any case, I never intend to use my newly issued ATM/debit card as a debit or a credit card, so I feel pretty safe about my accounts.

Plus is owned by Visa. Cirrus is owned by MasterCard. Your ATM card doesnt work in Belgium. Check the logo on the back of your card. If your card has Cirrus logo or Interac logo, try using a Plus card. Let us know what happens.

Oh and if your card doesnt have either logo. Then visit you branch office and as for an international ATM debit card - one that will carry a Plus or Cirrus logo.

And a question for those who know, do ATM cards with just the Interac logo work in Europe? Any experiences?

Patrick,
Here is one way a thief can steal debit card info when you "only" use your card at ATMs:


http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/atmcamera.asp

http://www.psecu.com/About_Us/News/F.../20030707.html

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000740038020/

well, Greg, I can assure you that no camera can get my pin as I punch it into an ATM. I hold my own hand over the numbers and I can tell you that the cameras they're talking about to record the punching in of numbers, will not do them any good.

By the way, I'm not losing sleep over the extremely rare possibility of such action. I'll be sure to report here if and when my identity is stolen from my ATM card, and if and when BofA refuses to honor their own statement about replentishing illegally drawn funds from my account immediately. I suggest you not hold your breath.

Oh, and by the way, those examples you gave have nothing to do with someone being able to steal the identity from an ATM/debit card any easier than a plain ATM card. So what was the point in regards to my issues?

Author: joetravel
Date: 04/20/2005, 01:44 am
Plus is owned by Visa. Cirrus is owned by MasterCard. Your ATM card doesnt work in Belgium. Check the logo on the back of your card. If your card has Cirrus logo or Interac logo, try using a Plus card. Let us know what happens.

Joe, I'm not sure what you mean. The issue was not with either Plus or Cirrus. An ATM only card will not have either logo because it is not connected with either Visa or MC, and that is the problem as to why it will not work -- period. If the card had either logo, then possibilities are very strong it will work fine, because that means it is an ATM/debit card -- not an ATM only card.