ATM Dispute/Claim Was Denied
Jan 21st, 2011, 07:08 PM
#101
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SUMMAGOLD
<I>I know, though, that when I purchase something with my credit card or atm card at a store, the receipt does show the conversion.</I>
Which probably means that DCC was used. Go to http://www.xe.com/ccc/ to figure out the percentage of the charge.
<I>I know, though, that when I purchase something with my credit card or atm card at a store, the receipt does show the conversion.</I>
Which probably means that DCC was used. Go to http://www.xe.com/ccc/ to figure out the percentage of the charge.
Jan 24th, 2011, 08:35 PM
#102
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Neopatrick...are you suggesting that they all sit around a table and determine the exchange rates after the fact?
This is not magic....I am a banker....exchange rates are all known each and every minute of the day and are set in the banking system for transactions that take place. Of course they know the amount and the most important aspect...what spread they want to add to your transaction!
That transaction is instantaneous. What do you think they do...send over a bag of ATM receipts to be negotiated with the American counterparts!
When you withdraw money....the network knows exactly what you have in your account and exactly what you will be assessed in fees and exchange rates. To display this on the screen takes nothing more than the imagination of the banks programming staff.
This is not magic....I am a banker....exchange rates are all known each and every minute of the day and are set in the banking system for transactions that take place. Of course they know the amount and the most important aspect...what spread they want to add to your transaction!
That transaction is instantaneous. What do you think they do...send over a bag of ATM receipts to be negotiated with the American counterparts!
When you withdraw money....the network knows exactly what you have in your account and exactly what you will be assessed in fees and exchange rates. To display this on the screen takes nothing more than the imagination of the banks programming staff.
Jan 24th, 2011, 10:44 PM
#103
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"That transaction is instantaneous. "
Is it heck. As someone who works on banking computer systems all the hard work will be done overnight.
"To display this on the screen takes nothing more than the imagination of the banks programming staff."
No bank is going to spend millions on catering for the off-chance that someone from Slovenia is going to withdraw money in Argentina when that bank has no connection to Slovenia.
Is it heck. As someone who works on banking computer systems all the hard work will be done overnight.
"To display this on the screen takes nothing more than the imagination of the banks programming staff."
No bank is going to spend millions on catering for the off-chance that someone from Slovenia is going to withdraw money in Argentina when that bank has no connection to Slovenia.
Jan 25th, 2011, 12:05 AM
#104
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Kamil , the same thing happened to a friend who lives in Athens. I was with her at the time and can vouch for it. Unfortunately the bank was closed for the bight. we left notes on the machine and on the door to warn people and to let bank staff know first thing. I think she also called some emergency number on the atm.
Fortunately she was able to get it worked out the next day, but these things DO happen more often than we think.
Fortunately she was able to get it worked out the next day, but these things DO happen more often than we think.
Jan 25th, 2011, 03:26 AM
#105
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Since this thread has been topped, I should say that following my dispute (for a second or third time, I can't recall), they never removed the credit they added to my account following my dispute. I'm not sure if they re-investigated or whatever, but all was fine with the money.
Having just used the Citibank ATM in St. Paul's in London last week, I can tell you that all Citibank ATMs are very similar. Following my request to withdraw 100 pounds, I get a message that says something like "I am about to deduct $... from your account, is that ok?" I remember this as such a main point of contention a few years ago that I'd like to reaffirm that, yes, from some transactions at some ATMs, you can figure out what the implicit exchange rate is. In this example, it's obvious, if the amount is 100 pounds, and you're told how many dollars are about to come out.
I'm not sure how this works behind the scenes, but it's really not rocket science to determine some exchange rate to apply for a specific transaction. But you can be sure whatever bank it is, they are not offering you the best one they could have offered.
Having just used the Citibank ATM in St. Paul's in London last week, I can tell you that all Citibank ATMs are very similar. Following my request to withdraw 100 pounds, I get a message that says something like "I am about to deduct $... from your account, is that ok?" I remember this as such a main point of contention a few years ago that I'd like to reaffirm that, yes, from some transactions at some ATMs, you can figure out what the implicit exchange rate is. In this example, it's obvious, if the amount is 100 pounds, and you're told how many dollars are about to come out.
I'm not sure how this works behind the scenes, but it's really not rocket science to determine some exchange rate to apply for a specific transaction. But you can be sure whatever bank it is, they are not offering you the best one they could have offered.
Jan 25th, 2011, 03:32 AM
#106
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Back to the comment about exchange rate determination, a seemingly obscure currency will have a cross rate against USD or EUR, so you can always convert everything to USD or EUR first.
There's no need for a programming genius. It's straightforward multiplication or division. But some people like to complicate this and call this "triangular arbitrage."
Anyway that example about Slovenia was poor anyway, as both Slovenia and Slovakia use EUR these days. If EUR-ARS is not actively traded, surely one could go via USD, as EUR-USD is the most liquid exchange rate and it's standard to trade LATAM currencies against USD.
There's no need for a programming genius. It's straightforward multiplication or division. But some people like to complicate this and call this "triangular arbitrage."
Anyway that example about Slovenia was poor anyway, as both Slovenia and Slovakia use EUR these days. If EUR-ARS is not actively traded, surely one could go via USD, as EUR-USD is the most liquid exchange rate and it's standard to trade LATAM currencies against USD.
Jan 25th, 2011, 02:23 PM
#108
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travelerusa, despite what you think, I am not stupid and most of what you say has nothing to do with what I was talking about. To this date I have yet to ever see any foreign ATM display the amount I'm about to take out in foreign currency also be expressed in US dollars that will be deducted from my account. So I have NEVER had the opportunity to figure out on the spot what the exchange rate is. I never suggested that THEY don't know what rate they are using -- only that out of the hundreds of foreign ATMS I have used over the years, not one has ever shown me what the amount I'm withdrawing in whatever foreign currency will be in US dollars. Interesting that some banks apparently do tell you, I've just never encountered that.
And while admittedly I am no techie, it is surprising to me that two people might use the same Barclay's ATM in London, for example -- one with a Charles Schwab card and one with a Bank of America Card -- and although both people are withdrawing 200 pounds the same machine will show the two people different amounts of US dollars that their own banks will deduct from their accounts, since those amounts will be different as the two home banks use different exchange rates.
And while admittedly I am no techie, it is surprising to me that two people might use the same Barclay's ATM in London, for example -- one with a Charles Schwab card and one with a Bank of America Card -- and although both people are withdrawing 200 pounds the same machine will show the two people different amounts of US dollars that their own banks will deduct from their accounts, since those amounts will be different as the two home banks use different exchange rates.
Jan 25th, 2011, 02:36 PM
#109
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By the way, interestingly I am staying right now with a guy who has programmed foreign ATMs (and wrote the program for South Korean ATMs). He too has never heard of an ATM showing on the screen the amount in US dollars that will be deducted from your own bank when you are withdrawing foreign currency. Perhaps that technology exists, but he has never heard of it, so I certainly don't feel stupid for mentioning that I've never seen it happen.
Jan 26th, 2011, 01:28 PM
#111
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I realized that there's an easier way. I have my receipt from last week and I took a photo of part of it and posted it to Blogger.
http://ldnatm.blogspot.com/
The relevant bit is that the 100 GBP I took out converted to 158.41 USD and the ATM told me so.
http://ldnatm.blogspot.com/
The relevant bit is that the 100 GBP I took out converted to 158.41 USD and the ATM told me so.
Jan 26th, 2011, 02:24 PM
#112
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lllop, why do you want to shut people up? Is healthy and logical discussion forbidden here? I have not suggested that you are not telling the truth and was primarily commenting in that last post to the rather odd post than seemed to say I didn't understand things I clearly do understand. What the rate is was never my issue, only making clear that I've never been told WHAT that rate is at the time of using a foreign bank's ATM.
It also occurs to me that since your HOME account is a Citibank one and you were using a Citibank ATM, it's really not all that surprising that your own bank knows what THEY will charge using their own ATM. My point is that I've never had than happen using an ATM of a different bank from my own. I've never used an ATM in a foreign country that was owned by my home bank (or by any US bank for that matter) -- so clearly we're talking about two horses of very different colors here.
Peace.
It also occurs to me that since your HOME account is a Citibank one and you were using a Citibank ATM, it's really not all that surprising that your own bank knows what THEY will charge using their own ATM. My point is that I've never had than happen using an ATM of a different bank from my own. I've never used an ATM in a foreign country that was owned by my home bank (or by any US bank for that matter) -- so clearly we're talking about two horses of very different colors here.
Peace.
Jan 26th, 2011, 02:40 PM
#113
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Actually I do encourage healthy discussion, but evidently there are people who just don't get it.
I thought your idea was that it was *IMPOSSIBLE* for any ATM to show an exchange rate? In fact, you even confirmed this with someone who programmed ATMs.
But of course, now evidently there are some exceptions, and it's "really not all that surprising."
If it was really not all that surprising, then why couldn't you accept what I wrote in 2008?
I normally don't go to the extent of doing what I did, posting a photo and everything, but as you can see, this exchange is not very pleasant or logical for me.
I thought your idea was that it was *IMPOSSIBLE* for any ATM to show an exchange rate? In fact, you even confirmed this with someone who programmed ATMs.
But of course, now evidently there are some exceptions, and it's "really not all that surprising."
If it was really not all that surprising, then why couldn't you accept what I wrote in 2008?
I normally don't go to the extent of doing what I did, posting a photo and everything, but as you can see, this exchange is not very pleasant or logical for me.
Jan 26th, 2011, 03:09 PM
#114
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What?
"I thought your idea was that it was *IMPOSSIBLE* for any ATM to show an exchange rate? In fact, you even confirmed this with someone who programmed ATMs."
Impossible? Perhaps you should re-read my post!
"He too has never heard of an ATM showing on the screen the amount in US dollars that will be deducted from your own bank when you are withdrawing foreign currency. Perhaps that technology exists, but he has never heard of it, so I certainly don't feel stupid for mentioning that I've never seen it happen."
But once again let me state that both he and I were on an entirely different wave length from your situation. We were talking about foreign banks being used to withdraw money from a US bank account. That is a world different from a Citibank (US bank) ATM being used to withdraw funds from one of their own accounts. I sincerely apologize for mixing up foreign bank ATMS with a US bank ATM in a foreign country.
And as a further apology -- why couldn't I see that in 2008? Because it clearly missed my radar then that you might have been using a Citibank (US) ATM to withdraw the money from their own account if indeed you were -- but you never mentioned that. My experience has always been with foreign bank ATMS and it totally eluded me (yes, my own failure to read carefully) that wasn't what you were talking about.
"I thought your idea was that it was *IMPOSSIBLE* for any ATM to show an exchange rate? In fact, you even confirmed this with someone who programmed ATMs."
Impossible? Perhaps you should re-read my post!
"He too has never heard of an ATM showing on the screen the amount in US dollars that will be deducted from your own bank when you are withdrawing foreign currency. Perhaps that technology exists, but he has never heard of it, so I certainly don't feel stupid for mentioning that I've never seen it happen."
But once again let me state that both he and I were on an entirely different wave length from your situation. We were talking about foreign banks being used to withdraw money from a US bank account. That is a world different from a Citibank (US bank) ATM being used to withdraw funds from one of their own accounts. I sincerely apologize for mixing up foreign bank ATMS with a US bank ATM in a foreign country.
And as a further apology -- why couldn't I see that in 2008? Because it clearly missed my radar then that you might have been using a Citibank (US) ATM to withdraw the money from their own account if indeed you were -- but you never mentioned that. My experience has always been with foreign bank ATMS and it totally eluded me (yes, my own failure to read carefully) that wasn't what you were talking about.
Jan 26th, 2011, 03:17 PM
#115
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Actually I mentioned lots of things.
I used a Santander ATM in Barcelona in 2008, and evidently, in that case, I wouldn't have been able to infer an exchange rate, by your reasoning. But, in fact, I did.
So do we need to go there again? But don't worry, this time I won't have a photo to prove anything, so feel free to continue with your line of reasoning. But I'll try to remember to snap a photo if I find myself in Barcelona again.
And I've said all I want to say on this matter.
I used a Santander ATM in Barcelona in 2008, and evidently, in that case, I wouldn't have been able to infer an exchange rate, by your reasoning. But, in fact, I did.
So do we need to go there again? But don't worry, this time I won't have a photo to prove anything, so feel free to continue with your line of reasoning. But I'll try to remember to snap a photo if I find myself in Barcelona again.
And I've said all I want to say on this matter.
