travelgourmet

<i> There is no bank in the US (I have asked quite a few) that has any intention of issuing EMV cards.</i>

The two articles I linked to above suggest that they may be making a very prudent choice. The numbers in the UK are particularly startling, where credit card fraud has ballooned with the introduction of chip-and-pin cards.

Personally, I don't find it much of a burden. Just say &quot;no PIN&quot; and most vendors have no trouble processing with a signature. And remember that not all chip-and-pin systems are interoperable. My Danish chip-and-pin card is no more useful in buying a train ticket in Amsterdam than my US American Express card.

Personally, I think the whole chip-and-pin thing is of dubious value. It doesn't seem to provide any more security than the traditional magnetic strip system. Perhaps it does on a theoretical effort, but not in real-world applications.

kerouac

When then does France, inventor of the chip and PIN system, have the lowest incidence of credit card fraud (per capita of course) in the world?

flanneruk

&quot;UK credit card fraud has ballooned with the introduction of chip-and-pin cards.&quot;

Not so.

Fraud on British credit cards has grown - because there's been a 77% rise in the fraudulent use of stolen UK card details in technologically backward countries like the US.

Losses on UK credit cards in UK physical stores in 2007 were &pound;73 mn. In 2004, before the introduction of chip and pin, such losses were &pound;219 mn.

Sarastro

While EMV cards can be compromised, the process requires far greater sophistication than the relatively simple duplication of a magnetic strip card. US banks are not interested in the increased security of EMV cards simply because:

1. it is the vendor who assumes the bulk of all risk in fraudulent transactions, not the bank.

2. they do not want to spend money on a problem that is primarily not theirs.

travelgourmet

<i>When then does France, inventor of the chip and PIN system, have the lowest incidence of credit card fraud (per capita of course) in the world?</i>

Per capita relative to what? Is it vs number of cards? Frequency of usage? Or simply number of people? And, if there is truly some benefit to it, is it the chip-and-pin combination or simply the PIN requirement?

Regardless, I guess I simply don't care. I guess I would like to see a universal system, but my experiences using my Danish card abroad suggest that moving to a chip-and-pin is not any sort of silver bullet. And if that universal system is magnetic strip or chip makes no difference to me. I don't worry about credit card fraud because I know I am not liable for it. And, yes, there is some hassle involved for the consumer, but that is why I stick with companies like AMEX and USAA for my financial services, as they have a reputation of minimizing those hassles.

kerouac

&quot;Percentage of fraud.&quot;

kerouac

<i>I don't worry about credit card fraud because I know I am not liable for it.</i>

Just so long as you don't care about the fact that fraud makes the price of goods and services go up for everybody, including you.

travelgourmet

<i>Just so long as you don't care about the fact that fraud makes the price of goods and services go up for everybody, including you.</i>

Read The Logic of Collective Action. Or google &quot;free rider problem&quot;. You'll realize why I am not going to bother worrying about it. It will either get fixed or it won't. Neither me, nor pretty much anyone else here, will have any impact on the total incidence of fraud, so worrying about it is sort of beside the point.

gb944

I recently spent a week in Paris, using my American Express card exclusively (save for small purchases by cash) and had no problem whatsoever.

One minor added benefit: I purchased my RER tickets and my carnet of metro tickets at a machine over a month ago and the charges never appeared on my bill. YMMV!

Christina

They probably will. I got some charges on my CC bill several months after they occurred.

BTW, I just got a notice from American Express in the mail last night that they are raising their foreign transaction fee from 2% to 2.7%. Amex isn't in great financial shape, you know, so they are trying to think of devious ways to raise more money.

kerouac

I cancelled my American Express card this month after having one for 30 years. I replaced it with a Visa Gold card from Carrefour, less than half as expensive with less than half as much commission on foreign transactions. I'm not surprised that Amex is tanking.

travelgourmet

Amex isn't tanking. Amex is fine. The issue is that the Amex business model requires a ready market for the debt incurred by the cardholders. For now, everyone is (irrationally) scared of all debt. As a result, Amex is having trouble finding markets for its debt.

So, Amex has turned itself into a bank-holding company, such that it can increase their own deposits. This creates an internal market for their cardholder's debt. This is the same tact that was taken by Goldman Sachs, which is backed by Warren Buffet (who is much, much, much, much, much smarter than anyone on this board), so reading into it is beyond silly. FWIW, Buffet, via Berkshire Hathaway is also a big investor in Amex.

In short, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Amex product (the credit card) is uncompetitive. The only issue is that Amex can't finance the CC transactions themselves. The credit crunch is hitting them hard.

Taking the time to understand the credit crisis will prevent you from drawing unwarranted correlations between Amex card terms and the health of the company.

Christina

I wasn't making any unwarranted correlations, I didn't make that up. It has been discussed and written about a lot in the financial pages of the newspaper. I hardly think it coincidence that they are changing a lot of their terms on their cards to make more money (that wasn't the only term that changed). Your own post is contradictory by claiming my remark was unwarranted and then saying Amex has been hit hard by the credit crisis but somehow that has nothing to do with them changing terms on their cards to get more revenue.

travelgourmet

<i> Your own post is contradictory by claiming my remark was unwarranted and then saying Amex has been hit hard by the credit crisis but somehow that has nothing to do with them changing terms on their cards to get more revenue.</i>

Not at all. You claimed that Amex isn't in great financial shape. Short-term liquidity concerns in an environment like we have today are largely unrelated to the finances of the companies. Amex is just fine.

kerouac

Ask the 7000 employees they just laid off how fine they are.

kchiok

Comment on Adrienne on Sep 13, 08,

Your comment is incorrect. I am in Paris right now and this is my second trip here. It is very frustrating and hassle to use credit card with no chip here. You can use the chipless credit card at gas station provided they have a manned station and the operator can help you to punch in your credit card number. Forget about using the self help service with the chipless card. Also, if a store has the portable credit card machine, which is quite common in Paris, the chipless card will not work. There are some portable machines that has a credit card slot with it then it will probably work. Some reviewers claimed the credit card with chip is more advance. My question is if one cannot do business with a worldwide recognised chipless credit card, how good and advance can it be?

gracejoan3

I just returned from a month in Paris..used my "dumb" card from Capital One regularly..no problems, whatsoever. All my restaurants took it..with portable machines. Grocery stores took it. I pay cash at metro windows to load my Navigo.We all know about toll booths and some gas stations and the machines at metro stations.

I went to Provence for 3 days and picked up my rental car at Avignon TGV station for my trip to Les Baux. I only needed to fill the car once before turning it in. I paid cash at that time.

There is NO problem in Paris with our "dumb" cards!

Joan

europeannovice

I had no problem with a Capital One card in Paris or London. I did heed the warnings and brought prepaid transit cards. Restaurants, hotels, gift shops, museums didn't flinch. In fact they seemed to be on the lookout as soon as the card hit the table, it was picked up and swiped. Almost caused a problem when I was organizing my cards and put my ATM card down for a moment at a Paris restaurant-it got swiped but luckily the transaction did not complete. Just watch out for the few places that offer to charge in USD-that DCC is really a scam masquerading as a service. Ask to charge in Euro svp.

d_claude_bear

Our experience was exactly the same as that of gracejoane and europeannovice. (We did not need to buy gasoline and used our credit card at staffed ticket booths for buying train tickets and charging our Navigos with no problems.) In 4 weeks (more than 85 charges to our CapitalOne card) in Paris in May 2010, we had exactly one cafe claim they could not "swipe" our card through their machine.

As has been frequently noted in messages here, the CapitalOne No Hassles Rewards card charges nothing (0%!) as a currency conversion fee on non-US purchases (many cards/companies charge 1%-3%) plus you get a cash refund by check (when you request it) equal to 1% of your purchases.

We have used it the last 3 times we were in Europe (Italy, Germany, Paris), and I would not use any other card unless I had to.