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A World of Affordable Rents (includes Paris discussion)

A World of Affordable Rents (includes Paris discussion)

Old Feb 20th, 2006, 09:37 PM
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A World of Affordable Rents (includes Paris discussion)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/realestate/19cov.html

This article compares rental prices in various world-class cities. I was surprised to read you can get an apartment for a longterm rental rate of $320-430 USD/month in Paris, so long as you choose a double-digit arrondisement.

My son is researching a possible move to Europe, and reports that Berlin in particular has cheap rental rates. Surprisingly, Copenhagen is not so bad as one would expect for a Scandinavian city.
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Old Feb 20th, 2006, 09:57 PM
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Hello,
I'm not sure where the person quoted in the article got their figure of $320-430 from. In my experience, furnished (or non-furnished) rentals in Paris that are actually fit to live in start at around 500 euros a month for a *small* studio in an outlying arrondissement. It is standard in Paris for landlords or agencies to insist that the tenant's net pay is equal to 3 or 4 times the rent, and to require parental guarantees (even for professionals), copies of wage slips, income tax statements, etc. Decent value housing is scarce, and competition is high. It's not uncommon to go and view an apartment and find a waiting queue of fifty or sixty people.
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Old Feb 20th, 2006, 10:04 PM
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hanl, could this be yet another example of NYTimes inaccuracy? Thanks for the on-the-ground report, which sounds more realistic.

I feel more confident about the Berlin and Copenhagen stats, because my son has just recently researched them.
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Old Feb 20th, 2006, 10:16 PM
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WillTravel, if you can speak French then have a look at www.pap.fr (property ads placed by private individuals) and www.seloger.com (ads placed by agencies). It will give you a good overview of actual prices/rents.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 12:30 AM
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aside capturing people's imaginations, making apple/orange comparasins in rental prices is useless.

first, many rentals in places like france and germany are not "turn key" properties...the renter must make them liveable by installing the basics like kitchens, etc. also in places like the UK, the renter pays the occupancy tax (like property tax in US)....apples and oranges.

normally, if you have a long term lease you have relocated to the country and you are subject to local conditions (wages, taxes, etc). obviously, the amount of rent that you pay is just one part of the equation. despite lower rents don't expect to be better off in these places (at least not due to the rent).

..and if you are on an expat deal where you are insulated from local conditions, then you don't care what the rent is anyway.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 02:26 AM
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Bizarre. The NYT must have been talking with those lucky renters still under the law of 1948. Hanl's experience and mine coincide. 500 euros per month is about the bottom for a rental anywhere in Paris, and this will most likely be a very-high-floor walkup, half the time with the toilet in the hall, and with all four walls reachable from anywhere within the apartment in one or two steps.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 06:43 AM
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The article also claims these apparently illusionary cheap Paris apartments are furnished. I did take a look at www.pap.fr, and the cheapest place I found on a quick look was 367 Euros per month, although I don't think it was furnished.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 06:53 AM
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I've heard that it's still possible to rent rooms in Paris with bathrooms down the hall. I'm not sure if people have seen Bresson's "Pickpocket," but the protagonist lives in such a room. Apparently these are still available. A friend claims to have stayed in one when he went to university.

But are these really 500 euros? I get the impression that 500 euros buys something nicer. I'm guessing that you can probably get a studio for 500 euros or not much more in central Paris if you look hard enough.

There's a rough rent-purchase price parity, so if you assume that a studio costs 200,000 euros (just making numbers up), then 6,000 euros in rent is 3%. I don't think that that's an unusual percentage. Routinely studios in Paris can measure 200 m2 to 300 m2, so 200,000 euros purchase is not unreasonable.

Most of the time I suspect this number is about 4% or less but when the housing prices have risen a lot (as is the case for Manhattan, for example), this can get out of whack.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:01 AM
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"Routinely studios in Paris can measure 200 m2 to 300 m2"
I'm assuming this is a mistake in your area calculations - a 200 square metre studio must surely be unheard of in Paris! The average studio size is probably between 15 and 30 square metres.

I just had a look on www.pap.fr again and did a search for studios in the 6th arrondissement. 400 euros a month will get you an unfurnished 9 square metre studio with the WC down the hall.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:07 AM
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Hi 111op,

Yes, those high-floor-walkups often are furnished. But 500 euros is still pretty much the bottom price. Keep in mind that quopted prices often don't include the building charges. I'm not saying it's impossible to find a 12 square meter spot a bit under 500, but rarely. Yes, one occasionally sees a studio offered for 200,000 euros in a double-digit arrondissement, but that would 20-25 square meters, likely high up without an elevator, nothing like 100 square meters, which is approaching palace-size here.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:12 AM
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Sorry. 20m2 to 30m2. My apologies. (1m2 = 10.67 sq feet for Americans who're used to square feet).

I go to pap.fr and type Paris into the search box and set 500 euros as my max and check 1 piece and there're 19 pages of listings.

You can get studettes in 3emes for 450 euros (what are these?). 10m2 or so.

There's a listing for a 14m2 place in 5eme.

These are better than "une petite chambre," I'd assume.

Reset the max to 600 euros and research. First listing:

"Quartier Montorgueil. Studio meublé, mezzanine, salle de bains avec wc, refait à neuf, au 4e. Métro Réaumur Sébastopol. Garantie demandée. 580 €"

Maybe NYT is exaggerating, but Paris doesn't seem as bad as NYC to me, rentwise.

Now to buy an apartment in Paris is another story.

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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:13 AM
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I was told by an aquaintence that East Berlin was very reasoinable but the rents were starting to go up and she rented a 2 bed for quite a low porice 2 years ago...not sure what it was but i was quite surprised how cheap it was.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:14 AM
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By the way, doesn't the landlord pay the building charges? I've always assumed this is the case.

In any case, "maintenance" (or whatever you call it) in Paris, is not very high, as far as I know. For studios and one bedrooms 100 euros a month is plenty, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:23 AM
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Here's an amusing quote from that New York Times article: "It is always easier to rent in a foreign country than to buy and I know of no restrictions on renting anywhere."

Totally wrong with regard to France. It's dirt simple to purchase real estate here. No restrictions at all. All you need is money and perhaps a little French-to-English language help.

A traditional lease, three to six years, unfurnished, or one year furnished, is very difficult to conclude. Proof of income required. Third-party financial guarantees often required. References from former landlords often required. Why? Because the renter protections are strong. A landlord-tenant relationship is something like a marrage, for the landlord, at least. Very expensive and messy to dissolve. So the landlord is very, very picky.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:27 AM
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I agree with you, Dave, based on the little I know about Paris real estate. Hard to kick tenants out.

Actually that's one concern with buying real estate overseas -- what to do with tenants and rent laws. But I guess there're rental companies that deal with these.

In fact, if I remember right, there's a page in the paper edition of pap.fr that tells you how much rents in Paris will increase each year. It's a percentage based on the consumer price index (or whatever the gauge for inflation is).

But I guess for a place like Paris there's the option of renting to tourists.

By the way, can someone with a very big bank account (liquid assets) show up in Paris and sign a long-term lease? Can the bank act as a guarantor?
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:30 AM
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Hi 111op,
I agree that Paris is not as bad as NYC, at least as far as I can gather, but I do think the NYT article was misleading, making it sound like Paris abounds in furnished rentals for 320-430 USD (NB dollars not euros!) per month.

Also, charges are paid by the tenant in France and not always included in the advertised rent. They can range from a few euros to 70 euros or more, depending on things like communal areas, concierge, lifts, communal heating/hot water, etc.

(BTW, I lived for 8 months in a 19 square metre studio and believe me, it was *small*. So any smaller than that and you're looking at severely cramped living quarters - no room to swing a hamster, let alone a cat! And forget about cooking anything like fish or onions or garlic - unless you like your bedding to smell like a greasy spoon café!)
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:37 AM
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It would depend on the landlord, I think. You sometimes see apartment wanted ads with the searcher offering to pay a year's worth of rent in advance, but of course, you never know whether that helped. I think the best route for expatriates who don't have guarantees from the in-France employers is to search in the informal market: sublets and rentals from expatriate owners. France-U.S.A. Contacts or FUSAC runs ads of this sort and can be searched on line.

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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:44 AM
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Interesting. Thanks for the insights regarding Paris apartments.

Maybe that NYT reporter didn't know how to do a Euro to USD conversion. When you think about it, it's quite probable. Maybe he/she divided by 1.2 rather than multiplied.

This would amount to an adjustment factor of 1.4 or so.

Or else the article was written years ago and just recently touched up. Back when the dollar was trading at a premium relative to the dollar. Just kidding.
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 07:47 AM
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Some of the Particuler a Particulier ads will read "charges comprises" or "CC," in that case the building charges are included. If the ad doesn't say that, you can be pretty sure they're not.

A very well organized 15-square-meter space may be livable for one person. But heaven forbid it's space on the top floor with one or more ceiling slopes!
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