tropo

Whilst I was in NZ last November, watching TV in my hotel room, I heard a news item, that in the last 12 months just over 40,000 NZ citizens had moved permanently to Australia (no doubt to warm climes like Qld). There was a lot discussion about how this loss of population could effect the economy in the future.

LizzyF

Are you going to start to build the fence then Trop ????

Sarvowinner

A former PM of NZ once quipped about the exodus of Kiwis to Australia something to the effect that it raised the collective IQs of both countries.

mlgb

hahahaha

They're chasing higher salaries, that's all.

wilees

There has always been a mentality in NZ that the grass is greener in OZ.

Mainly you earn more in Australia and it is warmer.

NZ has some real problems at the moment - high NZ dollar caused by high interest rates which have been hiked up to cool the housing market but has a knock on effect to our exporters. If the dollar drops then inflation will kick in and then the central bank, in theory needs to raise interest rates even further which strengthens the dollar. There is far more to it than my high school understanding but you can't win. Salaries are moderate, housing is expensive.

The change of government will help - just by giving people fresh hope of change. Some people are sick and tired of the perceived Nanny state.

But NZders have always travelled - there are 4 million in NZ and 1 million expats elsewhere. (Apparently there is 5 - 6 million NZ passports issued or something.)

However, I bucked the trend and returned to NZ from the UK for good. Yay NZ!

tropo

LizzyF - no I would never build a fence between our two countries, I have so many friends there. My grandfather was born in Auckland, then migrated over to NSW. My wife & I heard the announcement about the people migrating permanently to Australia on the NZ news, and the commentators made mention, that if the trend continues, it would have drastic effect on the economy.
Wiles - in respect of the strong NZ dollar, as you would know the same is occuring in Australia.
I suspect the reason for migrating trend, could be to do with warmer climate, and perhaps the larger salaries in the boom mining towns.
Wiles, if your the last person in NZ to turn off the lights, I will still come over (only joking about the lights)
PS, we hope to return later this year, or early next year for a spot of trout fishing.

lavici

gosh,forgive my barging in, but i read you and from where i sit here at midnight in caracas... i really wish i could migrate to NZ from venezuela if i didn't love & miss my country so much- in spite of our autocratic opressor!! or at least take a sabbatical 'till/if he leaves in 2012 :´(
but, to even get a tourist visa stamped in my 3rd. world country passport to go trampin' for 2 weeks in NZ's S.I. takes me more than 400grms.of forms and papers of all kinds proving i'm of good health and character, and don't plan to stay. so it sounds ironic to me that the people that live in such a paradise, called the godzone want to leave for anywhere? you see? different strokes for different folks... i guess... janine

pat_woolford

tropo, unlike citizens from other countries, New Zealand citizens are exempt from requirement to obtain approval from the Australian Foreign Investment Review board before they purchase URBAN property in Australia. Resulting in quite a push over the last few years from real estate agents, in Cairns, at least targeting the New Zealand market of both property investors and those seeking permanent relocation.

Even before the Cairns housing boom of the last few years, there has been a healthy proportion of New Zealanders living in this area, Waitangi Day is celebrated in the in this comparatively small Australian city. And many New Zealanders are employed here, particularly in tourism industry.

vbca

My Daughter & her family moved from NZ to the Gold Coast in January. The drawcard was the fabulous climate (although they arived just as the drought broke, and it's rained most days since) and the perceived better oportunities for her family.
Her husband is a qualified builder, and has walked straight into a Site Supervisors job at AU$75000pa, compared to the aprox NZ$40000pa he was making running his own business in NZ. I guess they still have to find what the tax bite is before they know how much better off they will be, but at the moment everything is great.
Needless to say, we are not all that fussed about it, but it's another great reason to visit this fabulous country, as if we needed any more encouragement.

Neil_Oz

If I remember correctly, in the 1890s the colony of New Zealand was invited to join the new Commonwealth of Australia, a federation of six other British colonies. The Kiwis declined, but that does highlight the fact that while there are distinct differences between the two countries neither sees the other as "foreign", exactly.

Probably the biggest cultural difference is in the relative positions of the Maori and Aboriginal peoples - partly a reflection of the fact that the Maori mounted a more organised and effective resistance to the white invaders.

I think it's also fair to say that New Zealanders have traditionally felt closer to the "mother country" than have Australians, and Australians tend to perceive NZ as more "British". NZ has also tended to be somewhat more pioneering in terms of social reforms.

Economically I imagine that NZ has paid the price of its small population base and fewer economies of scale.

afterall

Neil, as always you hit the nail on the head. NZ has been ahead of the pack in so many ways. Social legislation and foreign policy as well. For a country with only 4 million inhabitants (and allegedy a quarter of them overseas at any given time) it punches above its weight on many fronts.

I don't know exactly where wilees is coming from except he seems to be a subscriber to the idea that social policy is a waste of time and all you need to do is let the market take care of things.

If I were a New Zealander I would be immensely proud of my country. I would be seriously proud of Helen Clark.

As for NZ folk coming to Australia - well it's a no risk option. You can come and no need to be bothered with all the regs that citizens of other countries have to go through.

Bigger pond, that's all.

Neil_Oz

Well, we can at least agree on this, afterall! No, I wouldn't be rushing out to replace Helen Clarke.

I do wonder though whether the Kiwis would be so keen to adopt an independent foreign policy if they didn't have Australia sitting between them and any conceivable external threat.

Having said that, they were very sensible, as were the Canadians, to avoid the Iraq adventure.

vbca

Neil,
A lot of Kiwis would agree with you on the defence issue. I and many others were appalled when we withdrew/ were booted out, of ANZUS.
Realistically though, what good would our 12 Stikemasters be if Australia decided to invade
My heart says we should have a strong defence force,and engage fully in multilateral exercises etc, but when you analyse it, what difference could we make if the Sh*t hits the fan. It would be akin to Victoria having it's own Army, Air force, & Navy.
I suppose the government's stance is pragmatic, if not universally popular.

vbca

I've had a brilliant thought.
Maybe Australia SHOULD invade us. You could take over the whole country in a couple of days, and then my daughter & grandkids wouldn't be living in a "Foreign" country

afterall

I'm wondering where an external threat to NZ would come from.

If we're talking some mega conflagration like WWII with the current super power, or one of super-powers-in-waiting targetting NZ you'd probably have to let them take it, flee to the hills, and fight a guerilla war. Cos no standing army you could muster could keep them out.

No need for Australia to invade. haha. Yes, there's that fierce tribal rivalry in sport, but really the relationship between the two countries is unique and symbiotic. Lots of "peak" bodies are joint ventures, and the citizens of each can live AND WORK in the other. No special visa required.

A bit like the EU but without the paraphrenalia.

I'm thinking NZ has weighed all this up, and concluded the best way to make a contribution is to go where others dare not. Say NO to Iraq, say NO to nuclear power (way back in the time of David Lange).

Now you can say it can afford to because big brother Oz is there. But would it be any different if the place occupied on the map by that huge land mass was empty sea?

If you think it would then what you are saying is that the US, China, India, Japan, Indonesia - the big population countries (any others?) would decide one day to take over.

wilees

"I don't know exactly where wilees is coming from except he seems to be a subscriber to the idea that social policy is a waste of time and all you need to do is let the market take care of things."

Gosh, I wasn't giving you my opinion on politics at all - just trying to show some of the reasons or perceptions that mean NZders are moving to Australia.

I have no opinion on social policy and clearly the market is not sorting it out. I have no understanding of public policy and how it all works - I was just trying to explain why people are leaving. Surely, nothing I said is untrue?

Neil_Oz

wilees, I think the problem was that you seemed to be endorsing the comment "The change of government will help - just by giving people fresh hope of change. Some people are sick and tired of the perceived Nanny state."

I must admit that was how I took it, especially as the words "THE change of government" seemed to signify a desirable fait accompli.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, as they said on "Seinfeld" - I don't have a problem with posters making political comments, as long as they don't turn the thread into a mutual abuse session. Some posters don't seem to be able to run an argument on its merits, preferring to attack the proponent instead - i.e., playing the man rather than the ball.

As for me, I'd be interested to know what this "nanny state" perception is based on, and what people think a National government would actually do to dismantle it.

vbca

Actually I've never heard the term "Nanny State", but there is the perception that the state is starting to intrude more & more into peoples lives, and a lot of NZer's don't like that. Sue Bradford's anti smacking bill was buldozed through parlament, against the wishes of many Kiwis, and is likely to be repealed if National gets in next time. THis was seen as a gross intrusion into the privacy of the family, and rode on the back of a number of highly publicised & appaling child abuse cases.
Neil, I take your point about turning this into a political forum, so I have deleted the rest of my rant. Suffice to say there is a mood in the country that a change is due, very much as happened in Australia, and I for one won't be sorry if Helen gets the golden handshake.

wilees

Neil_oz - thanks for the explanation. I generally adhere to the no politics or religion rule and perhaps should have kept my trap shut. However...

I don't think that National would necessarily dismantle it - but a government change might make people who are thinking of leaving NZ just wait and see. "The" was a typo on my part.

However, a change is government might make it worse.

re: Nanny State - vbca explained it better than me. And then there is the Electoral Finance Bill.

And again I really know nothing much about politics - but I get to vote along with everybody else.

Neil_Oz

vbca, I don't care if people want to have a political discussion, but it seems to upset some Fodorites (particularly if they aren't of the same opinion )

These days the editors will usually move a political thread to the Lounge rather than freeze or delete it as was often the case before. But between US politics and posters obsessed with "household hints" type posts or feeling an urge to bare the details of their private lives to a wider audience it's hard to get a word in edgeways on the Lounge. Even on the Lounge a thread may be deleted or frozen if personal abuse takes over.