tjhome1

Hi
Another first time trip to Japan. Also it's likely to be the only one too so I want to make the very most of it. There are so many places in the world we want to visit and we've been lucky enough to see many so far but realistically it's likely that we won't be getting back to Japan. I've wanted to visit for a while now and have been inspired by some of the fabulous trip reports on here. As Kavey said the opportunity to observe a culture and set of traditions wholly alien to our own is a huge attraction for this trip.

We want to see the best that Japan has to offer but also want to fit in some off the beaten track experiences - and I know these are conflicting aspirations. We love history and getting outdoors but love cities just as much, but are not so into the onsen experience, I think. It will be a mix of expensive and cheap. A top end restaurant one night - supermarket takeout the next, same with hotels.

The trip is going to be 2015 and October/November seems to be the best time to visit.

My first draft itinery came to 35 nights and I know we Brits get great holidays but even that's too many. So I had to drop Sapporo and Hokkaido and northern Honshu, DisneySea, Nikko, Naoshima, snow monkeys and Fukuoaka as well as cutting the amount of time spent in Tokyo and Kyoto so we have just 4 nights in each city. I've kept 2 night in Kanazawa, Hiroshima and Yakushima though.

So here's my first proper draft itinerary:

Emirates flight leaving Manchester on a Friday evening. DP wants to stop somewhere on the way (I'd prefer not to but it's a compromise I think I need to make) so Dubai looks to be the best option. Also it's not a place we'd ever go otherwise I think.
Night 1 - on plane
Night 2 - arrive early morning in Dubai
Night 3 - Dubai
Night 4 - plane leaves Dubai 8:15 arrives Tokyo Haneda 23:00. We could get a flight the night before that arrives very early morning in Tokyo on day 4. Thoughts?
Night 5 - Tokyo - to max the chances of seeing Fuji without cloud we'd do Hakone in a day trip depending on the weather and we have no huge desire to stay for the onsen.
Night 6 - Tokyo
Night 7 - Tokyo
Night 8 - Debating whether to hire a car and drive for the next few days. We love driving holidays and the freedom/flexibility it brings over trains. Also we get to drive on the same side of the road as home. Overnight in Matsumoto? Mrwunrfl suggests that Matsumoto castle can be seen without the need to stay overnight.
Night 9 - Alpine route. Overnight in Kanazawa
Night 10 - Kanazawa
Night 11 - Overnight in Takayama
Night 12 - We want to hike between Magome and Tsumago so overnight in Tsumago?
Night 13 - drop car off during the day somewhere convenient and get train to Kyoto.
Night 14 - Kyoto
Night 15 - Kyoto
Night 16 - Kyoto
Night 17 - Nara
Night 18 - Hiroshima - having seen Himeji Castle on the way, which will be unwrapped by then.
Night 19 - Hiroshima
Night 20 - Miyajima
Night 21 - Yakushima - the hiking here looks so good.
Night 22 - Yakushima
Night 23 - leaving Yakushima lunchtime to get to Osaka late evening for a 23:40 flight home. Arrives home on the Sunday morning.

Am sure I will have lots more questions as time goes on but first it would be great to get your thoughts on the draft itinary. Also:
Is getting in to Tokyo at 23:00 a really bad idea?
We'd love to drive so is the section from between Tokyo and Kyoto a good chance to do this?
I'd really appreciate advice on how best to work those days - for example, could we get to Kyoto without overnighting in Tsumago? Also I'm not even sure if I have them in the most logical order.
Should we take a night off Hiroshima and add it to Kyoto?
Is mrwunrfl right about not needing to sleep in Matsumoto?

I know I've got lots of reading on www.japan-guide.com to do.

Many thanks, Tim

kja

You've obviously "done your homework" and considered your options - kudos! Just a few comments:

I thought 2 days enough for Hiroshima and Miyajima, combined. On the other hand, i thought 4 full days for Kyoto and 2 full days for Nara too little. So you might try to shift a night from Hiroshima to Kyoto or Nara. And BTW, I think you can stay in EITHER Hiroshima OR Miyajima. (I stayed in Miyajima.)

With that one exception, I think you are cutting your times very close to the bone. It obviously depends on what you want to see and experience, but there might be some advantages to giving yourselves a bit more time to actually see the places you visit rather than rushing on to the next place. Just my take on it.

Whatever you decide, you will see some wonderful places!

mrwunrfl

Visiting Matsumoto castle requires a few hours, so it doesn't require an overnight stay in Matsumoto, depending on your itinerary. I actually did stay overnight in Matsumoto and visited the castle the next day before moving on. Other fodorites spent more time in Matsumoto and enjoyed found it worthwhile, as a couple of recent TRs will attest.

You do have things out of order, as you suspected, and a bit much packed in, for nights 8 to 12 or 13. It certainly is not right if traveling by train/bus, but I suspect that it is wrong even by car.

You mention the "Alpine route" and that means the Tateyama-Kurobe Alpine route. Am not sure how that would fit into a driving itinerary as you travel the route by other means - and you would have to go back and get the car. There is also a driving (or bus) route thru the Japan Alps: Matsumoto- Kamikochi- Takayama- Shirakawago- Kanazawa, that would be worthwhile. The Alpine route and the Nakasendo are on either side of that driving route.

You need to take a look at a map and get an idea of the travel times. For the time you have, I think you have to leave something out.

For example, go that Japan Alps route I mentioned above. Or go Matsumoto- Alpine Route- Kanazawa- Kyoto. Or Matsumoto- Nakasendo- Takayama- Kanazawa- Kyoto. Which is like what shellyk did.

Days 1-7 are ok. I would definitely prefer to arrive in Tokyo in early morning and would avoid that late night arrival. Whichever Dubai departure time you choose you are still going to be messed up by the time change and all that traveling. Days 14+ are all fine. It is the middle part that is broken.

rkkwan

Yakushima to Osaka is one flight a day. A problem with it and you miss your flight home. I wouldn't put Yakushima to the end of the trip. And with the hassle and cost of getting there and out, I'd give it an extra day so you have two full days for the Island.

My wife and I spent two nights there and couldn't visit all the places I'd like to visit.

tjhome1

Thanks for the replies.

kja - will definitely add a night to Kyoto and just have one night in Hiroshima.

mrwunrfl - will get a good map, its often what I start with but dived into guide books this time. I can see that I need a good hard look at the middle part of the trip.

rkkwan - we were going to get a train back from Kagoshima to Osaka - hyperdia shows this to be a 5 hour trip and will a late night flight this seemed to suit and not be too stressful. It felt logical to put Yakushima at the end of our trip.

rkkwan

Maybe just me, but I don't like starting my day hundreds of miles from where I need to get on my flight that evening. Especially when there's a flight or ferry involved.

You're talking about going from hotel to port, ferry, then a bus/taxi to trim station. Then another switch of train in Shin-Osaka. Totally possible with your time, but with so many days in Japan, I don't see a strong reason why you should end your trip this way.

Just my opinion.

mrwunrfl

Not just you, rk. I wouldn't want to be more than 2 easy hours from the airport.

You could move Nara to the end. Travel there on the 22nd, then 80 min next day to KIX from Nara.

Or move Hiroshima. Hiroshima to KIX is about 2.5 hours. That is longer than I like but there are a couple of hotels next to the shinkansen side of Hiroshima train station (Granvia, Sheraton).

The Miyajima to Yakushima trip is one that I would want to avoid. The four hour train trip is ok, but then there is the waiting for the ferry and another 2-3 hours for that. All that travel time is cutting into your time on both islands.

You could fly from Osaka to Yakushima or Kagoshima. The regular one-way fare to Yakushima is too high for me: ¥34,200. I checked two dates in the near future and neither one had the special fare for visitors. However, the special fare is offered for Osaka Itami to Kagoshima. That is ¥10,100 on JAL. ANA doesn't fly to Yakushima, other airlines might. That fare might not be offered on the day you want to travel. I think it would be in Oct, but maybe not Nov.

If that fare was available, I would go from Kyoto (or Nara) to Itami airport and fly. Then use a 5-day Sanyo-Kyushu pass from Kagoshima to Kansai Airport, stopping in Hiroshima, Miyajima, Nara. Something like that.

Other way is just to go from Kyoto to Yakushima by rail/ferry. Or rail to Hakata (Fukuoka) and then fly from there if the price is right.

mrwunrfl

If you have Oneworld FF miles (like on American) then you might be able to get the JAL flight from ITM to Yakushima for only 10,000 miles.

tjhome1

Thank you so much both of you, especially mrwunrfl, for the opinions and suggestions - who needs loads of people weighing in when you give such good advice, albeit that it would have been nice to get more views. I have to say though that I have no qualms at all about a long journey to the airport - I kind of like that little extra thrill and challenge I think on a last day...but, you are right, staying closer does make sense and switching Nara to the last day does feel like an excellent idea.

I've also swapped a night in Hiroshima for an extra night in Kyoto, which I'm very happy with.

One of the things in Japan that looks to be excellent is the takuhaibin service and I intend to try and make the very best use of it. This works not just with switching Nara to the end of the trip but I'm also thinking that we could use it for the last few days, sending luggage from Hiroshima or Miyajima on to Nara. That would mean that the long journey to and from Yakushima was easier. I did take a look at flights to Kagoshima and Yakushima and found cheap flights from Kobe but we love train journeys so I'm actually quite looking forward to train and ferry.

No FF miles sadly.

Many thanks again, your advice has been very useful, and I ordered a map yesterday!

kja

If only every country had takuhaibin or something like it!

rkkwan

Only JL's subsidiary fly to Yakushima. 1x daily each from FUK and ITM, more from Kagoshima. There may be cheap fares, you just need to check the blackout dates, and you can't buy domestic tickets this far in advance. Just find out the day the special fares go on sale and purchase them at the earliest time, if the OP decides to fly.

aprillilacs

On our recent monthlong trip to Japan we took the train from Kyoto to Kagoshima, spent the night there, and then went on to Yakushima in the morning by Toppy jetfoil ($150 roundtrip, about 2 hours). In retrospect we probably should have tried to fit in the jetfoil trip in the late afternoon instead of stopping in Kagoshima, but it would have been a long day. We spent 3 nights on Yakushima, and the hiking was indeed wonderful. Check out the Yakushima Life website (www.yakushimalife.com) that's maintained by our hiking guide Jenny--I highly recommend her. We had a wonderful all-day hike with her on the Shiratani-Unsuikyo trail. Could have done it on our own, but it was so much more special with Jenny, who added a wealth of insight as well as providing us with transport to and from the starting point. We stayed at a small, rustic, family-run inn (Tsuruya Inn) near Anbo port that served the best seafood I've had in Japan. Amazing meals and a lovely family.

I agree with the idea of moving your Hiroshima and/or Nara days to the end of the trip. Even though it's certainly possible to go from Yakushima to KIX in one day, there's always a chance that the sea will be rough and the jetfoil will be canceled. The ferry, which is likely to run even in rough weather, will take twice as long (though it's cheaper). I would err on the side of caution in this case.

You are going to have a fabulous trip.

mrwunrfl

I'll just mention that I like to put the easy part at the end of a trip. For this itin, the easy part is the multi-day stay in Kyoto.

A good place to go for maps and good info is here: http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/location/rtg/

Take a look at the guides for the Alpine Route, Kanazawa, Kiso Valley, and in particular the one for Takayama. The Takayama and Shirakawago guide has a nice "traffic network" map at the top of page 3 (north is left). That map shows the spatial relationship of all the places you mentioned for the middle of your trip.

That map also shows Kamikochi, which I mentioned earlier, between Matsumoto and Takayama. You ought to consider putting Kamikochi on your itinerary wish-list. I stopped there and took the easy, scenic, walk by the river. I also saw several serious-looking hikers, i.e. they had big backpacks like they had been out for a few days of hiking and camping.

Kamikochi, or someplace between Matsumoto and Takayama, might scratch your itch for hiking.

mrwunrfl

Ogimachi on that map is Shirakawago. I think there is a new road between there and Kanazawa that cuts the drive time some (IIRC KimJapan mentioned it). Same might be true between Shirakawago and Takayama. Those pdfs haven't been updated.

tjhome1

Thanks for the advice about Yakushima aprillilacs, I had checked out that website and it made me want to fit Yakushima in. I find the travelling half the fun and so will certainly get to Yakushima in the one day, our journey looks to be considerably shorter than yours so it shouldn't be too much.

Excellent advice yet again mrwunrful, thank you so much. I hadn't got to the jnto website yet but it certainly looks very useful. The amount of detailed information there is and that I think needs to be trawled through if I'm to extract the very best from the trip is beginning to feel a little daunting.

I had looked at Kamikochi but thought I was trying to pack too much in already. I think a key decision will be whether to drive or stick to the train and then working out some detailed logistics. Can't wait for my map to be delivered.

kja

I can't blame you for trying to fit more in, but repeat my earlier concern: I think you are at risk of giving yourselves too little time in too many places. But of course, we all travel differently and for different purposes....

AskOksena

Warm morning greetings tjhome and congratulations on future journey to Japan; have always cherished my business/holiday times in that blessed country.

Noticed that Dubai is potential stop-over for you. My one (to date; scheduled to return later this year) business trip to Dubai earlier last month far exceeded my expectations. Remain partial to our fine home of Singapore for family, work and residence, but will say Dubai proved to be a particularly productive and enjoyable experience. My profile page review of Dubai's Emirates Towers property barely touches on that most satisfactory stay. Wherever you stay in Dubai, enjoy.

Concerning Tokyo hotels (and potential splurge for you), will proffer the ongoing highest praise to my main business travel property, the Park Hyatt. Most seamless working stays at the PH - as well as with her sisters in Melbourne and Seoul. And, would be remiss in not mentioning a couple of memorable weekend rendezvouses at the Tokyo Peninsula and Four Seasons at Marunouchi. So many fine Tokyo lodgings; have fun.

Finally, noticed you are flying Emirates. Had the privilege of flying EK (for ongoing work related) business class out of Dubai; will say, Emirates delivered exemplary service that particular flight. (Remain partial to a certain Singaporean carrier.)

Savour your planning, Tim; very happy for you. Should you ever desire Singapore recommendations, honoured to assist. Early and warm weekend wishes to you and all,

macintosh (robert)


... Singapore Airlines, You're a Great Way to Fly ...

tjhome1

Morning Robert

Many thanks for your best wishes. Glad that Dubai exceeded your expectations - always a good sign. I have certainly checked out the Park Hyatt and it would indeed be a massive splurge - maybe just a little too much for us though sadly.

No decisions made on our airline yet but am glad that Emirates prices seemed to be best I've found so far.

We loved Singapore - we stopped off on our way to Australia nine years ago and had two lovely nights at the Ritz Carlton. And Singapore Airlines was indeed a great way to fly.

Best wishes

Tim

Kavey

Hi Tim

A few random observations:

Firstly, I do understand you are compromising with your other half but the flight from London to Tokyo really isn't that long that I'd lose so many extra days to stop over in Dubai. If you want to visit Dubai, go for a long weekend another time, but don't shortchange yourself on time you could spend in Japan, IMHO.

I have only made two trips to Japan thus far. In Sep/Oct 2012 we spent 17 nights there and this last Oct/Nov we spent another 19 nights. In those trips I've not covered half as much as you are planning to cover, so can't comment on everywhere in your itinerary.

Our itineraries were as follows:

2012: We flew into and out of Tokyo and had 17 nights on the ground. We spent 2 nights Tokyo, 2 nights Takayama (coinciding with the autumn festival), 1 night Nara, 5 nights Kyoto, 1 night Koyasan, 1 night Osaka, 1 night Miyajima (with a few hours in Hiroshima during the day) and then 4 nights back in Tokyo.

2013: We did a single night in Tokyo, then 6 nights Kyoto, 2 nights Osaka, 2 nights Kumamoto, 2 nights Kurokawa Onsen, 2 nights Yufuin, 2 nights Fukuoka and then a last 2 nights in Tokyo. We had a rental car in Kyushu which we picked up on leaving Kumamoto and returned on arrival into Fukuoka.

We like to take it easy, lots of stops for coffees and people watching and resting while admiring the views. So of course, it's certainly more than possible to do much more in the same time, especially for very active folks who have lots of energy.

Driving in Kyushu was not only easy but a highlight. The maps don't paint the picture of quite how many mountains you need to traverse when going from anywhere to anywhere, switchback up one side, back down the other again and again, wonderful views from all of them, and then the flats in which you will drive through pretty rural scenes. You can do Kyushu using public transport, as many Fodorites can tell you, but I remember when I looked into it, that there is often only one or two buses/ trains between destinations a day, so it may restrict the flexibility of your itinerary.

Kyoto, for us, merits a lot more time than most first-time visitors assign and it's why we went back for so much more time on our second visit. That said, do please note that we effectively lost 1.5 days in Kyoto on trip 1 as I suffered such severe headache that I went into hospital for CAT scan (all clear) and rested the entire next day. Everyone told me about the many many temples but I assumed I'd only be interested in seeing a handful, and that I'd get bored. I was wrong and they were all captivating and each one so different to the rest. We also loved food markets, shops and we even did a wonderful private cookery class in a Kyoto lady's home.

Tokyo too has so much to offer, and it's much vaster than I'd imagined. In London, most of our key tourist attractions are essentially in zone 1 but Tokyo doesn't have a single centre like us, it has several and attractions are really divided between many of those. It's worth creating loose groupings of attractions according to area, so you can work out where you need to head each day rather than backtracking all over the place.

I didn't think we'd be into onsen either but am so glad we did visit one proper onsen ryokan, it is a uniquely Japanese experience and I liked it far more than I thought. Of course, you can enjoy the hot baths in any ryokan, even if they don't have onsen (naturally heated waters) they will have hot baths fed from regular heated tap water.

tjhome1

Hi Kavey

Thank you for taking the time to comment, I'd hoped that you would be one of the several who would and I've read several of your contributions on other topics and trip reports.

As you know if it was my choice alone I wouldn't be stopping over in Dubai but it is not somewhere that either of us would contemplate making a destination in its own right and I can see that given that it increases the airline fare only very slightly there are merits in being able to visit, albeit briefly. I will continue to ponder the merits though and whether the compromise is necessary.

Am so glad that you found the driving a highlight - I love driving on holiday and highlights have been driving across Brooklyn Bridge in NY, the Great Ocean Road in Australia, Big Sur in California, the single lane roads in the Scottish Highlands and the Arc de Triomphe in Paris. I would love to be able to make driving a section of this trip work.

I hear what you say about Kyoto and I've made sure that we have more nights there than anywhere else.

The comparison between London and Tokyo is excellent and something that I had not quite appreciated. I'll be sure to plan accordingly.

I think you have persuaded me to plan an onsen / ryokan experience! I grew up in Bath and my older brothers and sister actually learnt to swim in the hot baths there - its now the site of the posh Bath Spa, so I think that it is something we do need to do.

I've now added your site to my favourites - I share your love of food and am so looking forward to this aspect of the trip and the prospect of street food right through to high end Michelin star places.

Many thanks

Tim