seeking help from those in the know
Apr 16th, 2008 | 06:34 AM
#1
Original Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 38
Likes: 23
seeking help from those in the know
Hello travelers---I'm planning my first trip to India ( and Bhutan)in November---and I seek advice on my itinerary.Our plan, to date
Day 1 arrive Delhi
Day 2 Delhi
Day 3-12Depart for 10 day Rajasthan tour- train to Agra, for one night, then car and driver to travel via Fatehpur Sikri to Jaipur, then on to Jodhpur then Udaipur. Return by air to Delhi.
Day 13-22 Fly Delhi to bhutan--travel there arranged by Snow white tours
Day 23 Delhi then overnight train to Varanasi
Days 24-25 Varanasi
Day 26 fly Varanasi to Delhi then Mumbai ( for reasons I won't go into, we have to depart Mumbai), then depart on day 27.We're trying to change this but may not succeed.
Questions:
1. Best itinerary within Rajasthan? small cities to see? should we bypass Jaipur as some here have suggested--( but it is the closest in to Agra and we're driving to avoid enormously long drives)? It would seem we don't have enough time to also get to Jaisalmer? Should we take a train from Agra to Jaipur?
2. Thoughts on the night-train to Varanasi--seems like this is a good way to travel and an experience to have ( we've been advised by one to travel 2nd AC to have a more culturally integrated experience--is this correct?)
3. we think we'll try to stay at a guest house on the ghats in Varanasi-other thoughts on how to fully experience Varanasi?
4. We figure we'll be exhausted by the time we get to Mumbai for 24 hours--thus just want to chill in a pleasant hotel --suggestions that wouoldn't cost a Kings's ransom?
Thanks for any ideas.
Day 1 arrive Delhi
Day 2 Delhi
Day 3-12Depart for 10 day Rajasthan tour- train to Agra, for one night, then car and driver to travel via Fatehpur Sikri to Jaipur, then on to Jodhpur then Udaipur. Return by air to Delhi.
Day 13-22 Fly Delhi to bhutan--travel there arranged by Snow white tours
Day 23 Delhi then overnight train to Varanasi
Days 24-25 Varanasi
Day 26 fly Varanasi to Delhi then Mumbai ( for reasons I won't go into, we have to depart Mumbai), then depart on day 27.We're trying to change this but may not succeed.
Questions:
1. Best itinerary within Rajasthan? small cities to see? should we bypass Jaipur as some here have suggested--( but it is the closest in to Agra and we're driving to avoid enormously long drives)? It would seem we don't have enough time to also get to Jaisalmer? Should we take a train from Agra to Jaipur?
2. Thoughts on the night-train to Varanasi--seems like this is a good way to travel and an experience to have ( we've been advised by one to travel 2nd AC to have a more culturally integrated experience--is this correct?)
3. we think we'll try to stay at a guest house on the ghats in Varanasi-other thoughts on how to fully experience Varanasi?
4. We figure we'll be exhausted by the time we get to Mumbai for 24 hours--thus just want to chill in a pleasant hotel --suggestions that wouoldn't cost a Kings's ransom?
Thanks for any ideas.
Apr 16th, 2008 | 08:34 AM
#2
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,689
Likes: 0
Just some random thoughts in no particular order:
If you don’t already know it, the Taj Mahal is closed on Fridays, so you may need to work your itinerary around this.
From Bhutan, I would actually go to Varanasi LAST. Then at the end of the trip, fly from Varanasi to Mumbai either on Jet Airways or Kingfisher (you have to change in Delhi, but these would be easy, both at the domestic airport, and your luggage would be transferred). You might also be able to connect on to your international departing flight and not have to spend anytime in Mumbai (and gain an extra day for India sightseeing). The Kingfisher flight from Varanasi (via Delhi) arrives into Mumbai daily at 6 pm. The Jet Airways flight from Varanasi also via a change in Delhi arrives into Mumbai at 7:30 pm or 9:30 pm depending on what connection you made. If you have like an 11 pm or later departure from Mumbai, which is typical, you could most likely make these flights in one day. (You have to change from domestic to international terminals in Mumbai, which requires a taxi ride and you have to bring your luggage.)
Another alternative for Bhutan-Varanasi, assuming you are flying Druk Air from Paro, is to <u>get off the plane in Katmandu</u> (where it stops) and see if you can get an Indian Airline flight right to Varanasi. Not sure if schedules will work for this, but if it would, I would do this. The Druk Air flight gets into Katmandu at 10:15 am and IC 752 departs for Varanasi at 2 pm, so you should have plenty of time. (Maybe even time for a spin into Katmandu for a few hours..)Even if it is Indian Air, the time saved should be worth it.
If you stick with the Druk Air flight, rather than going to Varanasi when you land in Delhi, you could instead either fly to Jaipu/Jodphur OR drive/train to Agra. You arrive into Delhi at like Noon, which should give you lots of options for a flight out to Jaipur or Jodhpur. (Any flight would require a change from the international to domestic terminals which involves a drive and you have to take your luggage as it won’t be transferred,) Driving down to Agra right from the airport might be the best way (again, save a trip into Delhi to get the train), can your driver meet you in Delhi and you can start down to Agra from there?
Otherwise, if you stick with your itin, then if there is any way to go directly on to Varanasi by air from Delhi airport, I would do that. Much as I love Indian trains, what you will be doing is (i) flying into Delhi at Noon, (ii) tackling what could be hellish traffic from the airport on the outskirts of the city to the train station in downtown Delhi, (iii) sitting for what would be several hours either in the train station or wandering around in your car for several hours, and then after all that (iv) sitting on a train all night. I would just fly all the way to Varanasi.
If you feel the need to take a longer and/or overnight train, you can train from Jaipur to Udaipur (11 hours).
I would not take the train from Agra to Jaipur as you would miss Fatephur Sikri if you do, unless you plan to see that earlier, but as it is on the way to Jaipur it makes the most sense, IMO to drive. It’s about an hour outside Agra, so doing it on the way to Jaipur usually saves time. Otherwise, the train is fine.
With regard to trains, 2nd class AC would be fine, but please do not think that if you go first class or “executive chair” (sort of the first class on the Delhi-Agra route) you will not have a “culturally integrated experience”. There are <i>plenty</i> of middle class Indians who travel in that class, and even some wealthy people. They are “real” Indians too, and have interesting stories to tell. You will find them just as friendly as well. I don’t understand the assumption that only people with less money are more “authentic”. I meet lots of educated, well-off Indians in my work there, and they are just as nice as the rickshaw pullers. This also might be one of your rare chances to meet an Indian who is not your guide, driver, waiter or housekeeper in a hotel. There are like 350 million middle-class Indians (about the population of the US), you might want to meet one of them and see what they have to say.
For Rajasthan, you have what looks like 8 days assuming 1 night in Agra and Fatephur Sikri. I would pick 3 places at most, personally 2 may be better. Udaipur seems to be one the definites or you. Do some more reading to see what would interest you. I like Jaipur, whether to choose it over Jodhpur is a hard choice. There are little villages all over the place, so even if you go to Jaipur, you can go out into the desert, etc. For me, it would depend on what YOU want to do and see, as Jaipur has a good museum and several other interesting sights. Jodhpur is more the fort and then trips to the surrounding countryside. There are little villages around Udaipur and a bird sanctuary a few hours drive away, so you may end up wanting to stay in this area longer rather than trying to “do” it all.
Could not agree with you more that you should try to avoid having to fly to Mumbai. Mumbai hotels are expensive IMO if you want a “pleasant place to chill”. Cheap is not usually that pleasant. I would stay at or near the airport rather than driving back and forth to hotels in downtown, but that is up to you. I personally would stay at the JW Marriott Mumbai which is on Juhu beach (15 minutes from the airport), chill by their pool, have a nice dinner next door at Mahesh and maybe wander the neighborhood there looking for Bollywood stars. You could also hire a car/driver and go into central Mumbai. Marriott is not going to be cheap, however, but would be good. The new Four Seasons is about to open, and is in Worli, which is not all the way downtown but not at that airport either. You might try that. There are several good hotels right at the airport as well, run a search here.
If you don’t already know it, the Taj Mahal is closed on Fridays, so you may need to work your itinerary around this.
From Bhutan, I would actually go to Varanasi LAST. Then at the end of the trip, fly from Varanasi to Mumbai either on Jet Airways or Kingfisher (you have to change in Delhi, but these would be easy, both at the domestic airport, and your luggage would be transferred). You might also be able to connect on to your international departing flight and not have to spend anytime in Mumbai (and gain an extra day for India sightseeing). The Kingfisher flight from Varanasi (via Delhi) arrives into Mumbai daily at 6 pm. The Jet Airways flight from Varanasi also via a change in Delhi arrives into Mumbai at 7:30 pm or 9:30 pm depending on what connection you made. If you have like an 11 pm or later departure from Mumbai, which is typical, you could most likely make these flights in one day. (You have to change from domestic to international terminals in Mumbai, which requires a taxi ride and you have to bring your luggage.)
Another alternative for Bhutan-Varanasi, assuming you are flying Druk Air from Paro, is to <u>get off the plane in Katmandu</u> (where it stops) and see if you can get an Indian Airline flight right to Varanasi. Not sure if schedules will work for this, but if it would, I would do this. The Druk Air flight gets into Katmandu at 10:15 am and IC 752 departs for Varanasi at 2 pm, so you should have plenty of time. (Maybe even time for a spin into Katmandu for a few hours..)Even if it is Indian Air, the time saved should be worth it.
If you stick with the Druk Air flight, rather than going to Varanasi when you land in Delhi, you could instead either fly to Jaipu/Jodphur OR drive/train to Agra. You arrive into Delhi at like Noon, which should give you lots of options for a flight out to Jaipur or Jodhpur. (Any flight would require a change from the international to domestic terminals which involves a drive and you have to take your luggage as it won’t be transferred,) Driving down to Agra right from the airport might be the best way (again, save a trip into Delhi to get the train), can your driver meet you in Delhi and you can start down to Agra from there?
Otherwise, if you stick with your itin, then if there is any way to go directly on to Varanasi by air from Delhi airport, I would do that. Much as I love Indian trains, what you will be doing is (i) flying into Delhi at Noon, (ii) tackling what could be hellish traffic from the airport on the outskirts of the city to the train station in downtown Delhi, (iii) sitting for what would be several hours either in the train station or wandering around in your car for several hours, and then after all that (iv) sitting on a train all night. I would just fly all the way to Varanasi.
If you feel the need to take a longer and/or overnight train, you can train from Jaipur to Udaipur (11 hours).
I would not take the train from Agra to Jaipur as you would miss Fatephur Sikri if you do, unless you plan to see that earlier, but as it is on the way to Jaipur it makes the most sense, IMO to drive. It’s about an hour outside Agra, so doing it on the way to Jaipur usually saves time. Otherwise, the train is fine.
With regard to trains, 2nd class AC would be fine, but please do not think that if you go first class or “executive chair” (sort of the first class on the Delhi-Agra route) you will not have a “culturally integrated experience”. There are <i>plenty</i> of middle class Indians who travel in that class, and even some wealthy people. They are “real” Indians too, and have interesting stories to tell. You will find them just as friendly as well. I don’t understand the assumption that only people with less money are more “authentic”. I meet lots of educated, well-off Indians in my work there, and they are just as nice as the rickshaw pullers. This also might be one of your rare chances to meet an Indian who is not your guide, driver, waiter or housekeeper in a hotel. There are like 350 million middle-class Indians (about the population of the US), you might want to meet one of them and see what they have to say.
For Rajasthan, you have what looks like 8 days assuming 1 night in Agra and Fatephur Sikri. I would pick 3 places at most, personally 2 may be better. Udaipur seems to be one the definites or you. Do some more reading to see what would interest you. I like Jaipur, whether to choose it over Jodhpur is a hard choice. There are little villages all over the place, so even if you go to Jaipur, you can go out into the desert, etc. For me, it would depend on what YOU want to do and see, as Jaipur has a good museum and several other interesting sights. Jodhpur is more the fort and then trips to the surrounding countryside. There are little villages around Udaipur and a bird sanctuary a few hours drive away, so you may end up wanting to stay in this area longer rather than trying to “do” it all.
Could not agree with you more that you should try to avoid having to fly to Mumbai. Mumbai hotels are expensive IMO if you want a “pleasant place to chill”. Cheap is not usually that pleasant. I would stay at or near the airport rather than driving back and forth to hotels in downtown, but that is up to you. I personally would stay at the JW Marriott Mumbai which is on Juhu beach (15 minutes from the airport), chill by their pool, have a nice dinner next door at Mahesh and maybe wander the neighborhood there looking for Bollywood stars. You could also hire a car/driver and go into central Mumbai. Marriott is not going to be cheap, however, but would be good. The new Four Seasons is about to open, and is in Worli, which is not all the way downtown but not at that airport either. You might try that. There are several good hotels right at the airport as well, run a search here.
Apr 16th, 2008 | 09:07 PM
#3
Original Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 38
Likes: 23
Thank you Cicerone for your invaluable suggestions. Just what I was looking for--some thoughts from someone familiar with the geography and culture. Hard to plan from afar, knowing so little. So how you do come to know the exact flight number for the flight from Katmandu to Varanasi? I've contacted my Bhutan travel agent to ask her about this Paro to Katmandu to Varanasi option.
Apr 17th, 2008 | 01:47 AM
#4
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,689
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I have taken the flight from Paro to Delhi, which is how I knew that it stopped in Katmandu. I also know that Air India flies to Varanasi from Katmandu because I looked that up for another poster some months ago, but the actual flight number I did have to look up yesterday (I have most airlines’ schedules in PDF on my laptop as I travel to India very often). Websites for the various airlines are below in case you want to do some looking yourself. My mantra on airlines in India is: Kingfisher Airlines first choice, closely followed by Jet Airways, then others like air Spice Jet and Sahara Air in a pack with Indian Airlines at the back. But if IC is the <i>only</i> available carrier (like from Katmandu) and the flight is appreciably shorter than a train or driving, then it is OK.
It is kind of a pain to get to and from Varanasi, so that is why I was suggesting that you try to fly there first or save it for last. There is no direct flight there from anywhere on your itin except Delhi or Katmandu. If you fly there first from Katmandu, then you could take an overnight train from Varanasi to Delhi and/or Agra if you wanted to experience as train, or you could fly from Varanasi to Delhi and then train or drive down to Agra to do the rest of your itinerary.
If I can completely rewrite your itin, you might want to see if you can go to Bhutan FIRST or last, rather than in the middle of a trip to India. Your current itin has you doing a good bit of India first, and then going to Bhutan, and then coming back. I think that is sort of a weird break-up of a schedule, and will require you to do a lot of back and forth to Delhi just to get flights in and out to Bhutan. I also think this is going to be quite tiring, as the activities and altitude in Bhutan may make you tired, on top of 2 weeks in India, and then you have to come back and do another 5-6 days in India. Bhutan is far easier to travel in than India, all things considered, but after it and India you may not feel like facing the logistics of getting to Varanasi as you will have been on the road for about 3 weeks. Is there a reason you can’t do either Bhutan first or your entire Indian itinerary at once? Do you need to be in Varanasi for some specific date?
Note that it is possible to go to Paro from Bangkok (most flights stop in Katmandu or Kolkata), so if you wanted to do an international flight into Bangkok from where you live and go to Bhutan first, that would be possible. (And flights might be better than going into Delhi.) From Paro you could then go to India as planned. If your int’l ticket would require you to fly out of Bangkok, you can get to Bangkok from Delhi on Jet Airways or Thai Airways (or even Air India).
http://www.windhorsetours.com/bhutan/Drukair.htm
http://www.flykingfisher.com/
www.jetairways.com.
http://www.spicejet.com
http://www.airsahara.net/s2v1/.
Website for Indian Airlines is http://indian-airlines.nic.in/ (Not to be confused with Air India, which is international flights only, although the website will connect you to both.)
For train schedules look at www.indianrail.gov.in., the state railway of India.
It is kind of a pain to get to and from Varanasi, so that is why I was suggesting that you try to fly there first or save it for last. There is no direct flight there from anywhere on your itin except Delhi or Katmandu. If you fly there first from Katmandu, then you could take an overnight train from Varanasi to Delhi and/or Agra if you wanted to experience as train, or you could fly from Varanasi to Delhi and then train or drive down to Agra to do the rest of your itinerary.
If I can completely rewrite your itin, you might want to see if you can go to Bhutan FIRST or last, rather than in the middle of a trip to India. Your current itin has you doing a good bit of India first, and then going to Bhutan, and then coming back. I think that is sort of a weird break-up of a schedule, and will require you to do a lot of back and forth to Delhi just to get flights in and out to Bhutan. I also think this is going to be quite tiring, as the activities and altitude in Bhutan may make you tired, on top of 2 weeks in India, and then you have to come back and do another 5-6 days in India. Bhutan is far easier to travel in than India, all things considered, but after it and India you may not feel like facing the logistics of getting to Varanasi as you will have been on the road for about 3 weeks. Is there a reason you can’t do either Bhutan first or your entire Indian itinerary at once? Do you need to be in Varanasi for some specific date?
Note that it is possible to go to Paro from Bangkok (most flights stop in Katmandu or Kolkata), so if you wanted to do an international flight into Bangkok from where you live and go to Bhutan first, that would be possible. (And flights might be better than going into Delhi.) From Paro you could then go to India as planned. If your int’l ticket would require you to fly out of Bangkok, you can get to Bangkok from Delhi on Jet Airways or Thai Airways (or even Air India).
http://www.windhorsetours.com/bhutan/Drukair.htm
http://www.flykingfisher.com/
www.jetairways.com.
http://www.spicejet.com
http://www.airsahara.net/s2v1/.
Website for Indian Airlines is http://indian-airlines.nic.in/ (Not to be confused with Air India, which is international flights only, although the website will connect you to both.)
For train schedules look at www.indianrail.gov.in., the state railway of India.
Apr 17th, 2008 | 09:02 PM
#6
Original Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 38
Likes: 23
Hi Cicerone---I've been searching the Indian Air websites---and I'm not finding any flight from Katmandu to Varanasi. Could the flights have changed? We're taking your comments to heart--trying to simplify and avoid multiple trips to and from airports etc. So we may end up flying more city to city without returning to Delhi as central hub.( eg- udaipur to Mumbai). The limiting factor on our schedule is that we've got frequent flyer tickets ( booked in January) that have us arriving in Delhi, departing Mumbai.( Business class seats to San Francisco--arranged before we had thought through our itinerary). As I said, we continue trying to change flights to simplify
Apr 18th, 2008 | 01:06 AM
#7
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,689
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Yes, the Air India website is just the <i>worst</i> (a preview of things to come). Kathmandu does not show up as a destination city on the flight booking area on the main page of their website, but <u>does</u> show up on the weekly schedule section. See http://indian-airlines.nic.in/script...tschedule.aspx All I can say is that wait until you try to use the Indian Rail website….. According to the schedule page, they are still offering IC 752 in November 2008 from Katmandu to Varanasi departing at 2 pm on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays.
You might want to try other booking websites to see if the flight shows up. The airport code for Kathmandu is KTM and for Varanasi is VNS.
For you international flights, if they are set, then you just have to work around that. Good news is that business class will save you some hassle in checking-in for your return flight in Mumbai (but the “lounge” is crap, don’t go early with thoughts of a pleasant few hours using it). On your flights within India, if you can afford it, I would go business class, this will mean shorter and more organized lines for check-in, and on flights with Kingfisher some really outstanding service. Usually the price is not a great deal more. Plus if flights are delayed, etc you will get better treatment as a business class passenger.
Also, as you are going out of Mumbai for your return flight, would you consider any sightseeing in that area? Of course the Elora and Ajanta caves are first on most tourists lists and are quite spectacular if you have an interest in Buddhist art. You can fly from Udaipur to Aurangabad in about an hour (or from Jaipur as well via Udaipur) on Kingfisher, which may work with your schedule, and you can get to Mumbai in about an hour from Aurangabad. (That would be on Jet Airways, train journey is also possible, as is a car ride.) I would also say that the Ahmedabad area might be worth consideration, a short visit there to see Gandhi’s ashram and then you can go into the countryside of Gujarat to visit villages which are known for their rather astonishing textile work (I have seen and purchased examples in Mumbai). You could fly there from Jaipur or Delhi in about an hour, which may work with your itinerary (see http://www.jetlite.com/jlv1/default.aspx this was formerly known as Sahara Air, Air India also has flights). It’s also only an hour by air to Mumbai from Ahmedabad. Weather is very similar to Rajasthan at that time of year.
Either of these would of course mean cutting out parts of Rajasthan, not sure if this would appeal to you. The small villages of Gujarat would be completely off the main tourist path and might be appeal for that reason. (But not much tourist infrastructure like good hotels.) I am planning a trip there shortly and could provide the info I have so far, my traveling companion is a textile freak and we are concentrating on that. The caves of Elora and Ajanta are more popular with tourists, but are unlikely to be really crowded.
If you do not already have it, you might consider getting Alistair Sawday's book called Special Places to Stay India. This has literally hundreds of very interesting places to stay, many in the range of less than US$60 a night and several in the range of less than US$30 a night. They also have a website at http://sawdays.co.uk/, click on the book for India. The vast majority of these hotels are not in the luxury range and some are in the very low budget range, but all look interesting.
You might want to try other booking websites to see if the flight shows up. The airport code for Kathmandu is KTM and for Varanasi is VNS.
For you international flights, if they are set, then you just have to work around that. Good news is that business class will save you some hassle in checking-in for your return flight in Mumbai (but the “lounge” is crap, don’t go early with thoughts of a pleasant few hours using it). On your flights within India, if you can afford it, I would go business class, this will mean shorter and more organized lines for check-in, and on flights with Kingfisher some really outstanding service. Usually the price is not a great deal more. Plus if flights are delayed, etc you will get better treatment as a business class passenger.
Also, as you are going out of Mumbai for your return flight, would you consider any sightseeing in that area? Of course the Elora and Ajanta caves are first on most tourists lists and are quite spectacular if you have an interest in Buddhist art. You can fly from Udaipur to Aurangabad in about an hour (or from Jaipur as well via Udaipur) on Kingfisher, which may work with your schedule, and you can get to Mumbai in about an hour from Aurangabad. (That would be on Jet Airways, train journey is also possible, as is a car ride.) I would also say that the Ahmedabad area might be worth consideration, a short visit there to see Gandhi’s ashram and then you can go into the countryside of Gujarat to visit villages which are known for their rather astonishing textile work (I have seen and purchased examples in Mumbai). You could fly there from Jaipur or Delhi in about an hour, which may work with your itinerary (see http://www.jetlite.com/jlv1/default.aspx this was formerly known as Sahara Air, Air India also has flights). It’s also only an hour by air to Mumbai from Ahmedabad. Weather is very similar to Rajasthan at that time of year.
Either of these would of course mean cutting out parts of Rajasthan, not sure if this would appeal to you. The small villages of Gujarat would be completely off the main tourist path and might be appeal for that reason. (But not much tourist infrastructure like good hotels.) I am planning a trip there shortly and could provide the info I have so far, my traveling companion is a textile freak and we are concentrating on that. The caves of Elora and Ajanta are more popular with tourists, but are unlikely to be really crowded.
If you do not already have it, you might consider getting Alistair Sawday's book called Special Places to Stay India. This has literally hundreds of very interesting places to stay, many in the range of less than US$60 a night and several in the range of less than US$30 a night. They also have a website at http://sawdays.co.uk/, click on the book for India. The vast majority of these hotels are not in the luxury range and some are in the very low budget range, but all look interesting.
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Apr 18th, 2008 | 06:01 AM
#8
Original Poster
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 38
Likes: 23
I hope Indian Air doesn't loose planes as they seem to lose cities. Thanks for the clue on finding Katmandu---I was able to find their schedule. And I'm interested in seeing if we can get to Aurangabad perhaps from Udaipur at the end of a Rajasthan circuit. I'm aware of the Sawday book/website--we're perusing that for ideas.
