marywhitcomb

Hi. My husband and I planning to go on the 19 day classic Yangtze River Odyssey tour run by Pacific Delight that includes: Beijing, great wall, Xian, Chongqing, Yangtze River Cruise, Shanghai, Suzhou, Guilin, Guangzhou and Hong Kong. We are considering October because of the weather (not as hot and dusty) and wonder if there are others who are thinking of going at that time. We havent picked our date yet.<BR><BR>If others have gone on this tour, would appreciate tips. Thanks a lot!!!Mary Anne

gabby

We have checked Pacific Delight, but then checked with China Focus travel and have just booked with China Focus for the end of August. You might want to compare....check out www.chinafocustravel.com

Elainee

We went in October with Smartours. The tour was extremely well run and amazing value. But..the weather on the Yangtze river was overcast and misty everyday. The weather elsewhere was perfect. If you look at the classic pictures of the Yangtze river, lots of mist. So I guess it was as expected but not good for our photos. FYI..We flew in before the tour, got over jetlag, got comfortable with being in China. I highly recommend doing that. The poor tour people who flew in, took a city tour, got to hotel, had dinner, went to Great Wall next day were travel heros. Also, good idea to take antibiotics with you. Almost everybody on tour got miserable colds. Meds helped.

LEANNAT

I think I already answered this...but Lord only knows where that reply went. I've had to register under 2 different names so I can get back on here!!! ANYWAY...I went on the 25 day w/ PD and was absoltely thrilled w/my tour. Everything was perfection and our guide, Lee, was amazing. We only had 9 people on my tour last April/May. I can't believe any company could do the job better!!! But then China itself is fascinating. Good luck!

LOVINGTOTRAVEL

Before you book with pacific Delight, check out China Focus as the other suggestion above

LOVINGTOTRAVEL

Dear Maryanne,<BR>We too had considered Pacific Delight, a very popular tour company that visits China. Like one other suggestion listed above, I strongly urge you to look at China Focus Travel out of San Fran. We took their 22 day tour last September. We live in San Diego and being such 'whimps', we wanted the best weather we could hope for. We knew the summer months were hot and humid and then it turns cold after a brief season of fall. We wanted to avoid the rainy season especially. I have known friends who took the same tour as we did in October and were very pleased. Our temps were always in the 70s and only did it shower on two different days and they were brief showers. There is a lot of hiking and steps and I would think the rain would make all that so dangerous walking on uneven concrete. We were so skeptical about travelling for so little and thought it would have been a dreadful tour with terrible accommodations. Well, let me tell you.....the majority of the hotels were 4 star...outstanding and the cruise on the river was lovely as well. It wasn't the Queen Mary but it was most comfortable. The staff made the trip. So many tour companies add extras once you arrive but with China Focus....ALL WAS included. We saved so much on this tour that we were able to visit Europe as well this past year. If it is very important to be in 5-star hotels, go with Pacific Delight. We found we had so little free time that we were so exhausted we fell into our beds each night. And don't feel that a smaller group is especially better as after being with the same people, personalities, for 18-22 days, you'll look forward to different dining companions. Meals are a big part of each day and they serve you 3-4 times a day sit down full meals counting the meals on the 4 inner flights in china. We had 25 on our tour and it was great. Keep in mind, once you arrive in China, the Chinese government really runs and operates your tour and they are all about the same. I would return on this same trip tomorrow if I could. It was the best trip of our lives and for so little $$$$. We still do not understand how they do it all for so little. At least take a look at their website. Chinafocustravel.com<BR>

LOVINGTOTRAVEL

Dear Maryanne,<BR>We too had considered Pacific Delight, a very popular tour company that visits China. Like one other suggestion listed above, I strongly urge you to look at China Focus Travel out of San Fran. We took their 22 day tour last September. We live in San Diego and being such 'whimps', we wanted the best weather we could hope for. We knew the summer months were hot and humid and then it turns cold after a brief season of fall. We wanted to avoid the rainy season especially. I have known friends who took the same tour as we did in October and were very pleased. Our temps were always in the 70s and only did it shower on two different days and they were brief showers. There is a lot of hiking and steps and I would think the rain would make all that so dangerous walking on uneven concrete. We were so skeptical about travelling for so little and thought it would have been a dreadful tour with terrible accommodations. Well, let me tell you.....the majority of the hotels were 4 star...outstanding and the cruise on the river was lovely as well. It wasn't the Queen Mary but it was most comfortable. The staff made the trip. So many tour companies add extras once you arrive but with China Focus....ALL WAS included. We saved so much on this tour that we were able to visit Europe as well this past year. If it is very important to be in 5-star hotels, go with Pacific Delight. We found we had so little free time that we were so exhausted we fell into our beds each night. And don't feel that a smaller group is especially better as after being with the same people, personalities, for 18-22 days, you'll look forward to different dining companions. Meals are a big part of each day and they serve you 3-4 times a day sit down full meals counting the meals on the 4 inner flights in china. We had 25 on our tour and it was great. Keep in mind, once you arrive in China, the Chinese government really runs and operates your tour and they are all about the same. I would return on this same trip tomorrow if I could. It was the best trip of our lives and for so little $$$$. We still do not understand how they do it all for so little. At least take a look at their website. Chinafocustravel.com...our total cost from San Diego for 22 days was $2600 per person....for EVERYTHING!!!!<BR>

Laurel

We traveled with Pacific Delight in Sept. 2000. We took the Classic Gold Yangtze tour and we loved every bit of it. Wonderful guide (our best ever), great hotels and good group size (20 people). We would do it all again in a heartbeat, we loved China! Whichever tour you choose, ENJOY!

Roccco

One word of caution with Pacific Delight (and may also apply to other budget tours to Asia and elsewhere.<BR>While the trips are very nice and very inexpensive on the surface, Pacific Delight more than makes up for it on the back end by collecting a reported 40% commission on all the purchases made by their guests at their shopping stops and every tour always seemed to be accompanied by plenty of time for shopping.<BR><BR>Two years ago, my wife and I went on a 15 night trip with Pacific Delights to Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong. The whole trip was only $1,250 per person including all airfare, hotels, tours and most meals. <BR><BR>We could not even come close to buying the airfare for the same price yet here was Pacific Delight basically throwing in what appeared to be 15 free nights hotel (3* or better), tours, airport transfers and meals.<BR><BR>Fortunately about three days into the trip we wandered away from our group and to a store a few doors down. When negotiating for some items, the clerk cautiously asked us if our group and tour guide was with us and after we said they were not and when we questioned why she was asking, she explained that had the group been with us she would be required to give the tour company a 40% commission!!!<BR>That was the last shopping we did with the group, but not before we had probably already spent $2,000 (at a 40% markup translating to an $800 commission to Pacific Delight).<BR>Even so, with the $800 markup, it was still a good deal, but had I spent a little more with the group, it would not have been.<BR><BR>I recommend a couple different websites for Asian tours, if you haven't already purchased your tour. Try www.skyauction.com for regular tours or luxurylink.com for slightly upscale trips (but still at a deep discount).<BR><BR>Good luck.

LEANNAT

Oh for heavens sake....all tour companies rake off commissions on sales in shops! Everytime the tour is hauled into any store.....it happens. You have the choice not to buy or buy if you want. This happens in Mexico, Europe, Russia, Egypt, everywhere! <BR><BR>In Florence I left the tour stop at a leather shop...cause I was bored! Found a stationary shop next door and spent the time buying super cards, and note paper...I was happy! I dont care if any one made an extra profit....I loved using that stationary during the long winter months after the tour!! <BR><BR>The friendship stores in China and Russia are very high...In Russia I bought a Faberge egg necklace at the F store and it was expensive...I was happy anyway cause it was something I wanted. In China I bought a parasol for a few $$ off a street vendor and then saw the same umbrella for $60 in the Friendship store....so....I considered myself smart and lucky! Either way I got my treasures and was satisfied. I wont be back in either place again..to re shop! <BR><BR> My tour w/ PD was a high end tour..and there was NO pressure to buy or not buy. Or guide went and sat while we browsed.....I'm sure he got his cut....but really....who cares!!<BR><BR>I was pleased w/ the food...all meals provided and it was good, the hotel rooms....excellent...and very up scale, the education and background of my guide and his never ending depth of information. I liked having a small group...made for easy transport...and agility of movement for the tours. Our local guides were equally as knowledgeable and allowed many candid insights to local life. I had a nice cabin on the Victoria 2 for the YR cruise...and in every way I was delighted w/ my tour and the money I spent. <BR><BR>I think most the companies in China do an excellent job. But the tour biz is the tour biz....and the big word is business!!! I got what I paid for and more and was happy! I hope my next tour goes as well! Happy travels!

KellyF

I care. I don't mind spending what I spend, but it breaks my heart knowing that the local shopkeepers are kicking back 40% (!!!) of what they make to foreigners. My gosh, you get such great deals everywhere - I'd like to think that a good deal for me is a good deal for the seller as well; maybe not so much.<BR><BR>I'm glad I learned about this. In the future, I'll separate myself from the tour group when I want to do some shopping.

PeterN_H

Roccco's post has a number of misunderstandings in it. The key one is that Pacific Delight benefits from the kick-backs paid at the shopping stops. It does not directly benefit in any way.<BR><BR>The second is that a 40% mark-up is even significant in the context of the general overcharging. The shopkeeper can easily afford to pay out given that he will not unusually be charging foreign visitors eager to shop *ten to fifteen* times what he might get out of a Chinese. It is simply the height of foolishness to shop at these organised factories and demonstration places, guide kick-back or no.<BR><BR>All companies running tours to China are faced with the same dilemma. They complain that if they want the best guides, they have to accept the shopping stops. <BR><BR>The guides work for the ground handling companies--the ones the foreign companies are required to use to make their arrangements on the ground, which is one reason why many tours with different foreign brand names look so much the same. <BR><BR>The guides are making a fabulous income in local terms, to the degree that they now must often pay the ground-handling company for the right to get the next bunch of happy-go-lucky foreigners with bulging wallets. It's the guides who get the pay-backs, although in some cases the Chinese companies may be taking their cut, too. Of course now the guides are even less enthusiastic to work for a tour which doesn't include many shopping stops--they'll earn much less.<BR><BR>You might argue that the definition of a 'good' guide, or 'the best' guide, is an honest one. But those are very hard to find. Essentially, if you don't want shopping stops (and there are tours which don't have them), you end up paying more for the tour, because the tour company has to pay more for the guide, or you can forget having a good English speaker with a pleasant personality, honest or not.<BR><BR>In general, then, a cheaper tour does mean more shopping stops, but not because the home company is pocketing the difference. However, a few tour companies do get around the requirement to work with the monolithic Chinese ground-handling companies they are supposed to work with (because anything can be got around in China and often because the heads of the tour companies are of Chinese extraction themselves) and can immediately make dramatic cuts in costs which they can pass on to the consumer. So cheaper doesn't always mean more shopping. You have to ask. And you can vote with your feet.<BR><BR>I'd be more concerned about advice to reserve large sums for tips. In this case you really are being ripped off hand over fist, and paying twice over. There is no tipping in China, and you should select companies which cover any tipping within their own budget, or at least keep it to an absolute minimum, and which leave tipping any foreign tour manager or guide (for whom tips are appropriate) entirely to your discretion.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Roccco

Kelly,<BR><BR>The thing that REALLY bothered me is that the Pacific Delights tour guide hands out a &quot;10% Discount&quot; card to all the members on the tour. This card is supposed to entitle the tourist to a 10% discount but in reality it directs the store that it is responsible for paying 40% of the purchase price back to Pacific Delight.<BR><BR>After I became aware of the practice, I did notice that the guide was always in the managers office of the store settling the tab before the bus departed.<BR><BR>On one occasion I paid $1200 for a beautiful silk rug, possibly 5' x 8' in size. I thought I was getting a good deal because the starting price was $2500 or more. However, while my wife and I were exploring on our own a day or two later, we saw the same size and quality rug for $800 and that was before any negotiations! I likely could have gotten the rug for $700 or less.<BR><BR>On a separate occasion I bought a globe made out of precious stones. I paid about $200 for it in Beijing, before I knew the dirty tricks being played by Pacific Delight. I later saw the same globe in Hong Kong for half price.<BR><BR>A smart traveller on Pacific Delight or other tours would be smart to resist the shopping trips, or at least just take mental notes of what you would like and then go someplace else on your own to buy it. The tour guides are pretty good at scaring you into believing that the other stores goods are inferior, but do not believe it!!! They are only protecting their own interests.

Roccco

Peter,<BR><BR>I understand what you are trying to say, but ultimately Pacific Delight is responsible for how their tours are run.<BR><BR>If their only benefit is not having to pay the tour guide, the bus driver and the costs associated with the tours, then I would say that is a pretty big benefit to Pacific Delight.<BR><BR>I have no idea what the typical tour group spends in a day, but given that there are about 30-40 people on the tours, I would say it would be safe to say that a minimum of $4500-$6000 is spent on any given day (an average of $150 per couple). If the ground company only gets the commission and nothing else, then it is still $1800-$2400 for nothing more than the tour guide, the bus driver and I am sure the 90% majority to the ground company owner. <BR><BR>If it is true what you say about Pacific Delight, they could easily run their own ground company for 1/4 that price and, in turn, protect the interests of their customers.<BR><BR>I will return to China in the next few years and I WILL use Pacific Delight. Did you hear that...I will &quot;USE&quot; Pacific Delight. I will use them for their great pricing that will get me to the same destinations that would cost me possibly 50% more on my own. I will use them for their great guides that would be very hard to find on my own.<BR>I will use them for showing me the hot shopping areas. And then, I will not open my wallet one time at any of these shopping areas and will only offer a minimal tip to my guide. <BR><BR>I will not be a very profitable customer for Pacific Delight next time around but they will save me hundreds or thousands of dollars over what I would pay another tour operator that is completely on the up-and-up with their customers.

PeterN_H

We should remove Pacific Delight's name from this debate (I believe there are some companies which are even cheaper), and treat this as a question of the internal structure of doing business in China as a tour company. All foreign tour operators to China face the same difficulties.<BR><BR>For now, all companies are obliged to do business with a limited number of government-approved tourism companies in China who have a monopoly. So setting up their own operation (owning and running vehicles, directly employing tour guides and drivers, etc. etc.) is not an options, whether you think it would save them money or not. Forming a joint-venture company with a Chinese partner has been possible for a while now, but the only significant player who jumped into this was JTB, the biggest travel company in the world. Few others are sending enough people to China to make this a viable investment.<BR><BR>Something is about to change (in fact I believe it may have changed on Jan 1st.) and foreign companies will be able to buy their ground handling from anyone they like. Canny companies, you would think, would use this to bargain for better deals. But doing business in China is very tricky indeed, and to obtain reliable services, even if you are permanently there breathing down the neck of everyone involved, is very difficult. Many people who read this site will scream their heads off if the bus is five minutes' late, or slighly grubby inside, and that would be only the start of the problems. It is likely then that most companies will stick with their current ground handling suppliers for now, as they know where they stand. They get charged through the nose, add their own overheads and a margin of profit, and pass the result on to you--and you still rave about how cheap it is. So why should they change?<BR><BR>And perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. Your tour company is still paying full daily rates for all services provided by the ground handler, including the guide. None of the shenanigans discussed produces any discount in ground handling costs to your tour company. The ground handler saves the cost of the guide, and perhaps gets a cut of her takings, to boot. Your tour company probably doesn't have the first idea exactly what's going on, just as most foreign hotel General Managers have no idea what's going on behind their backs either. Regardless, your tour company doesn't save money. All that happens is that it gets the best guides it can (setting morals aside here) in terms of their technical skills, and which you won't get unless this system continues, there's suddenly a influx of suitable new guides, or your company pays many more times over for the guide--a cost which will be passed on to you.<BR><BR>One tour operator I've been in touch with says the key elements keeping prices high (and his company has been praised on this board for its cheapness--you really don't know just how cheap travel can be in China) is not the monopoly on supply of ground handling, but the artificially high price of aviation fuel in China which keeps internal flights expensive, and the lack of a raft of decent Chinese three-star accommodation good enough to put foreigners in and force prices down at the four-star and five-star level.<BR><BR>All tour companies in China face the same difficulties, guides with the same voucher system, etc. This is a matter at ground level over which they have little control, unless, as has been said, you are willing to pay a great deal more. Abercrombie and Kent, for instance, maintains a Beijing office and books all the transport on its bespoke tours from there, probably minutely detailing the exact itinerary, and paying accordingly. I've travelled with them once, and everything went like clockwork--not a shopping stop in sight. Have you seen their prices?<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

PeterN_H

I've recently asked a number of travel companies how many shopping stops they have, and how they handle them. Here's the information straight from the horses' mouths. I've made the replies anonymous, but with the exception of two very specialist outfits, each is from a tour company frequently mentioned on this site. I hope this might lead to a better understanding all round. <BR><BR>1. We have the power and ability to make our tours free of any factory stops. But we do not intend to do that in order to keep the local agents motivated, or we would have to raise tour prices. Because each time we stop at a<BR>factory, the vendor would give the local agent a few yuan per head, even if no one in the group spends a penny there. If you are able to maintain a good balance and communicate with your customers honestly, you'd never get any serious complaint... We only allow a maximum of three factory stops (each in Beijing, Xi'an and Suzhou) per trip and each stop is limited to 50 minutes including time spent on factory floor visit. We tell customers that the prices there are higher than outside and they should not feel embarrassed for not buying anything... Other than the above, no shopping stop is allowed. Whoever violates our rule will be punished, financially.<BR><BR>2. As our clients tend to be especially interested in history and culture, we do not typically include such shopping stops as part of the group itinerary. In most places, there is time for clients who wish to shop to do that on their own after the group returns to the hotel in the afternoon. The Tour Escort will make any necessary arrangements.<BR><BR>3. We find that you have shopping-lovers and shopping-haters in each group. We work very hard to make shopping optional to keep everyone happy. In China, gift shops are ubiquitous. When our travelers--for example--are visiting the Shanghai Museum they have a couple hours to look at the fabulous exhibits. But if they wish, they are free to shop in the gift shop. At the Terracotta Museum in Xian we give the group free time to eat a box lunch, watch the movie, wander back through the exhibits if they wish, and browse the gift shop. <BR><BR>For pure, factory-tour shopping stops, we keep them to a minimum--particularly the forced stops that are embedded into the middle of the daily itinerary. We limit those stops to 45-minutes, with the guide reminding everyone before they get off the bus how much time they have, announcing after 20-minutes to finish making selections and check-out. [This company has a 19-day tour which includes only three shopping stops.]<BR><BR>4. The company¡¯s China tours include shopping stops that depend on our contract with the local China government travel agencies. Contracts with them allow a maximum of ONE shopping stop in each city. This means for the four days in Beijing, there is only one shopping stop, etc.<BR><BR>5. Very rarely and only at the request of the clients. In a 15-day tour, maybe once, if at all. It is the clients' choice, not the guides. [This is a specialist interest company doing biking tours. Another specialist company for steam enthusiasts has 10 shopping stops in 15 days.]<BR><BR>6. No, this is something we specifically try to avoid!<BR><BR>7. Yes , 4-5 places for a 15 day tour, each last for about 45 minutes to an hour.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

ltmiriam

Has anyone gone on an elderhostel tour of China?

Jed

Not an Elderhostel in China, but we went with them to Spain and Tanzania, and are planning Mexico.

marywhitcomb

Peter--thanks for taking the time to find out this information, it was very helpful. There are pros and cons for every company. What's important to me is the reputation of the company, personal recommendations and how well their offering meets my interests. Thanks also to others who posted comments

ltmiriam

Jed, <BR>Can you tell me what you thought of the elderhostel tour?