Hi everyone,

We will have 4 days in Kyoto that could be extended to maybe 4.5 days or so. I've got a list of things/places that we want to see & do, but I can't seem to get a handle on what to do when, what things should/could be combined on the same day, how long to allow for each, etc. I'm hoping to get some advice. Here are the things I've got listed so far (not in any particular order):

Ginkaku-ji
Nijo Castle
Kyoto Handicraft Center
Kyoto Imperial Palace
Kiyomizu Temple
Sanjusangen-do
Adashino Nembutsu
Kinkaku-ji
Nishiki Market
Fushimi Inari
Ryoan-ji
Togetsu-kyo Bridge (to see cormorant fishing)
Gion / Gion Corner performance
Path of Philosophy
Nara
Himeji Castle

We will be coming from Tokyo to Kyoto and then going from Kyoto to Osaka. The extra half day could be carved out of our time in Osaka by leaving Kyoto later. Would it be a good idea to go straight to Nara from Tokyo and then go to Kyoto rather than go to Nara as a day trip from Kyoto? And what about Himeji? Would it be a good idea to go to Himeji Castle from Kyoto and then proceed to Osaka? Would doing it this way take too much time out of our stay in Osaka since we're only staying there one night? We could stay in Osaka a bit longer the next day since we'll just be heading back to Tokyo to spend the night before our departure the following day.

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for a good book or map for Kyoto. I've been looking and can't seem to find anything I like. Plenty of books/maps for Tokyo and Japan, but none specifically for Kyoto.

Thanks!
Judy

Your list is long and there is much to see. I would skip the night in Osaka entirely and stay in Kyoto until you go to Tokyo to go home. I might even skip Himeji...you could decide on the fly...if you've seen all of Kyoto that you want and want to go, then go, otherwise leave it for another trip. Same with Nara...easy enough as a day trip from Kyoto. A lot will depend on the weather, too, so leave yourself some flexibility. Try to group your sites together by location and priority; see the ones you most want to see first, and avoid long jaunts across the city.

Hi KimJapan,

Unfortunately (or fortunately), we can't skip Osaka because that's the only hotel night that we prepaid. Plus, although my BF is leaving it up to me to create the itinerary, Osaka is the only place he said that he wants to go to so I'd like to accommodate. Actually, he said that he wants to go to Kobe also, but since the only reason he wants to go there is to have a Kobe steak, I talked him out of it as using up too much time of our limited schedule.

My problem in trying to figure out what can be done in a day isn't one of trying to group sites, but more of not knowing how much time to allow for each sight. From what I've read, it seems that some sights could be skipped altogether or only warrant a little bit of time (maybe an hour or even less) while others maybe take several hours to be enjoyed properly. I'm also assuming (maybe incorrectly) that some of the things we want to see/do can be done in the evening.

I'm more than willing to listen to the opinions of others on the things I have on my list to help me determine priority. For instance, even though the Philosophy Path sounds great, I think that it might be lower on my list only because we'll be there in August and it might be too hot to enjoy -- unless, of course, we could go in the evening when it might be a little cooler. But, would it be worthwhile then?

I think your suggestion to skip Himeji altogether might work if we plan to see it after we leave Kyoto and before we go to Osaka. If we find we don't have the time for it, we can just go directly from Kyoto to Osaka and skip Himeji. But, is Himeji a "don't miss" sight? Should this be of higher priority than other places on my list in Kyoto?

Thanks,
Judy

btw, I'm not sure how much time we really need to spend in Osaka. I think the main reason my BF wants to go there is because it's a city known for its FOOD, so we're staying right by Dotonbori.

For time estimates, I'll tell you how long we spent at the places we've been to. Understand that we tend to sightsee rather quickly, as we've always had a child with us, and when in Kyoto last she was only 2. Now that she's 8, we're able to slow down a bit but we still are rather quick I think.

Ginkaku-ji 1 hour
Nijo Castle 1 hour
Kyoto Handicraft Center 2 hours
Kyoto Imperial Palace tour takes an hour
Kiyomizu Temple 3 hours...temple plus streets leading up to it are lined with shops that we stopped at and had lunch at a noodle shop
Sanjusangen-do 20 mintues
Adashino Nembutsu
Kinkaku-ji 1 hour
Nishiki Market
Fushimi Inari haven't been to Kyoto's markets but spend a good amount of time in Kanazawa's on occasion. Could be a walk through though.
Ryoan-ji
Togetsu-kyo Bridge (to see cormorant fishing)
Gion / Gion Corner performance an evening
Path of Philosophy August will be too hot to walk, just walk a bit near Ginkakuji and you'll be fine I think.
Nara 2 days
Himeji Castle started out going there and got stuck in traffic so decided to press on to Hiroshima when the traffic broke and we skipped Himeji. Had planned on lunch and an hour to look around.

KimJapan,

This is EXACTLY what I need! I have a feeling that your times could be pretty close to what we would do as my BF has a somewhat limited attention span (not that I'm comparing him to a 2-year old! ).

Now to try to find a good map of Kyoto...

I think you have got way too many sights...it looks like the itinerary of one of the "drive by tours!

I would skip Nara- it is a half day at least and much of what you'll see there is similar to things you can see in Kyoto.

I really love Himeji, but again, this is at least a half a day, probably more.

You are going in August, aren't you? If so, you need to allow extra time for everything. You'll walk slower, and you'll want to pop into A/C shops for a cool drink or a snack more often.
Plus, you can't overlook the joy of just wandering in Japan. Even a visit to a drugstore will be an adventure.

Must do-s on my list would be:
Ginkaku-ji- okay, but not a must do
Nijo Castle- 1 hour tour, plus time to wander the garden should be fine
Kyoto Handicraft Cente- have never been
Kyoto Imperial Palace- I believe the tours run about an hour?
Kiyomizu Temple- this involves walking up a lane full of tiny shops. You will want to browse.
Sanjusangen-do- this is one of my favorites.One hour
Adashino Nembutsu
Kinkaku-ji- don't miss. See at the same time as Ryoan-ji
Nishiki Market-this is fish and veggies, go early.
Don't forget the covered malls of Teramachi Dori. Allow 2 hours
Fushimi Inari- maybe an hour
Ryoan-ji- allow yourself time to sit and contemplate.
Togetsu-kyo Bridge (to see cormorant fishing)-just walking along the river is fun.
Gion / Gion Corner performance- An evening activity
Path of Philosophy -too hot
Nara- save it for another trip
Himeji Castle- hmmm, one of my favorite castles.

There are tons of little festivals in Kyoto in August. Make sure you stop in at the TIC near the rail station to get a list.

There are great flea markets on the 21st and 25th (?) of the month in Kyoto. This is where you can get cheap kimono and various japanese "antiques" and stuff.

Do you have the book 'Old Kyoto' by Diane Durston? It is a good guide to traditional shops and dining.

My fav guide book to Japan is 'Gateway to Japan', by Kinoshita. The pricing and hotel info is pretty out of date now, but the info on sights, tours, history and culture is incredible. The maps are good too. The third ed is the most recent. I wish they would update it!

Shin Osaka to Himeji on a Hikari Railstar shinkansen takes only 30 minutes. Consider this a good bargain time-wise because you would be traveling an average of 118 mph. And it would not cost any yen if you have a JR Pass.

It's less than an hour from Osaka station to Himeji.

So, it's two hours total travel (including walk to/from Himeji station) and two hours (or more) at the site.

The time for Himeji can come at the expense of Osaka.

You can get Kobe beef in Gion Kyoto if you wanted. I saw it on the menu at a place on the street that leads to Gion Corner. Or get it in Kyoto.

If you went from Tokyo to Nara then to Kyoto instead of day-tripping from Kyoto you would save one trip to/from Kyoto station. Not worth the effort of hauling luggage and finding the hotel in Nara, though, imo.

I have never thought of Osaka as a city famed for it's food as every town and city in Japan seems to have it's own style of food. You also do not have to go to Kobe to have Kobe beef. Beware that a Kobe beef dinner in Japan is likely to be very expensive.

lcuy (and others), since everyone is saying that I've got too many sites listed, I have to believe you, but I have to admit that I don't understand why this list would be like a "drive by tour". It seems that if many of the sites only require about an hour or so to visit, we could fit 2-3, maybe even 4 places in a day. If each place only takes an hour or so, even allowing for time to get from one place to another, it seems to me like visiting this many would be very leisurely and would allow time for spontaneity. And, some of the things I have listed would be evening activities (Gion Corner, cormorant fishing). If we allow approx. 1/2 day for Nara & approx. 1/2 day for Himeji, this would still leave 3+ days for everything else. What am I not understanding?

Thanks!

btw, since I really do believe everyone, I'm working on figuring out a priority list of what we want to see.

mrwunrfl,

Regarding Nara -- without looking at transportation to see if this would make any sense at all, my thought was to ask if it would make sense to go from Tokyo to Nara, sightsee around Nara and then proceed to Kyoto. Our luggage would have already been sent to Kyoto from Tokyo, so we will only have a carry-on with us which I thought we could maybe leave in a locker at the train station in Nara (?) while sightseeing. We would not spend the night in Nara. Would there be any advantage to doing it this way? Or would it make less sense than just taking a day trip from Kyoto?

For another added perspective, here's how much time I recall from my trips to some of the places on your list:

Ginkaku-ji: 30-45 min
Nijo Castle: 60-90 min
Kiyomizu Temple: 3 hr
Sanjusangen-do: 30-45 min
Kinkaku-ji: 45-60 min
Fushimi Inari: 3 hr
Ryoan-ji: 2 hr (including temple lunch)

we walked on the path of philosophy, but this was in late may and as such it wasn't nearly as scenic as other times of the year. So we walked it mainly to say we had done so...not that crucial in my eyes...

FWIW my wife was 5 months pregnant when we were in Kyoto, so things might have been a bit slower than usual (Sanjusangendo I recall being slightly slow-moving, along with Tofukuji which isn't on your list). That said, I wouldn't say we fly through things...

the thing to remember when planning (which I'm sure you already know) is to recall the travel time. We did something similar to what KimJapan suggested, taking a block of geography at a time. We generally used cabs or walking to go between places, more often cabs due to my wife's situation.

I was confused when researching Fushimi Inari, as some sites said 20 minutes & others said "don't bother if you don't have 3 hours at least". The shrine itself is lovely, although not much different from other shrines (traditional musicians were playing on the Wednesday morning we were there, which I loved) so it doesn't take much time to see it. On the other hand (and I'm guessing this is the reason its on your list), behind the shrine is the mountain with hundreds (thousands?) of torii running uphill. And if you really want to immerse yourself in the pleasure of it all, it will take you a number of hours. Had my wife not been exhausted, we could have continued on beyond 3 hours, and were we to go again I'd probably budget 4 hours since I love the serenity of it all, but I was happy to see what I did in that time...and if you go, i'd recommend to do it as early in the morning as you can...

Just to give you some reference, this was our itinerary while we were there. We came back to our ryokan exhausted each day & ready for a good meal & bath, but that's the way we liked it:

[again, all times approximate]
Day 1:
arrived at Kyoto Station around 10am
cab to Kinkakuji (5-10min)
Kinkakuji (45-60min)
cab to Ryoanji (5min)
Ryoanji (2)
cab to Arashiyama (20min)
Bamboo Forests/Pregnancy Shrine(45min)
Okochi Sanso (30min)
walk to Tenryuji (5min)
Tenryuji (60min)
Train to Ryokan in Eastern Kyoto (?)

Day 2:
walk from Ryokan to Konchi-in
Konchi-in (30min)
walk to Nanzenji (5min)
Nanzenji (60-90min)
walk to Eikando (5min)
Eikando (60-90min)
walk along Path of Philosophy (20min)
Honen-in (15min)
lunch at Omen (60min)
walk to Ginkakuji (10min)
Ginkakuji (30-45min)
cab to Nijo-jo (10min)
Nijo-jo (60-90min)
cab to Heian Jingu (5min)
Heian Jingu (45-60min)
cab to ryokan

Day 3:
cab to Fushimi Inari (10min)
Fushimi Inari (3hr)
cab to Tofukuji (5min)
Tofukuji (60min)
lunch (45min)
cab to Sanjusangendo (5min)
Sanjusangendo (30-45min)
cab to Kiyomizudera (5min)
Kiyomizudera & shops (2-3hr)

and when we got out of Kiyomizudera, it was 6pm whereupon all the shops closed & virtually everyone vanished, making Gion a bit of a ghost town. Quite lovely, to me...we had dinner and then headed off to the station to go back to Yokohama...

hope this helps & sorry if it went on for a bit...

You have to change trains in Kyoto to get to Nara so I don't see a big advantage to your revised route.

If you are interested in temples and shrines, then Nara (and Uji, which is on the way) have as much to offer, and are a lot more pleasant in my opinion, than Kyoto. The really ancient temples (Horyuji etc. with the oldest wooden buildings in the world) are out of town and it takes a while to get to them.

BTW. true Kobe beef is about $1,000 a pound.

We also grouped most of our sighseeing.
Ginkakuji 1.5 hr.
Philosophy Path 1 hr
Eikanko Temple 1 hr. (really nice bathrooms!)
Nanzenji Shrine 30 min - but only because we were really hungry and it started to snow
Museum of Traditonal Crafts - 2 hr
Heian Shrine - 30 min
Kyoto Handicraft center - 30 min - if you're looking for deals, don't bother
Yasaka - 30 min
Kodaiji - 45 min because of the light show
Kiyomizo and surrounding streets 3 hr. (don't miss this, it's one of the highlights!)
Kinkakuji - 1.5 hr
Nijo-jo - 1.5 hr. including gardens
Sanjusagendo Hall - 45 min
Kyoto Museum 1.5 hr (if you go to the National Museum in Tokyo don't bother with this one, if not it's interesting)

We did not see as much as planned because
1) The cruise director (me) got sick in the middle of our time in Kyoto and it shortened my days.
2) I discovered that when we go to a museum my son has to look and and read EVERYTHING!
3) I am going back!! (someday anyway)

You don't have to have a long time for Fushimi Inari. We went there and spent 45 min walking through the tori, then a half hr back. You don't have to walk all the way through the tens of thousands of tori to enjoy it, unless you just have the time and want to do so.

jlaughs, you are assuming incorrectly that some tihngs on yoru list can be doen at night. The only thing on your list that can be done at night is Gion/Gion Corner. Everything else closes by 5 pm (for shrines ad temples) or latest 6 pm (some shops around Kiyomizudera close at 6, but most start closing at 5 pm). Even Nishiki Market closes right at 6 pm.

The only thing there really is to do in Kyoto at night is shop in the city center area (Shijo-dori, Teramachi, department stores) or at Kyoto Station (we prefer the city center area, it is much more hopping), have dinner, and go to Gion Corner or some other live performance if you can find one happening during your time there. But the items on your list, aside from Gion, are not night time acitivites.

JNTO has a good map of Kyoto, you can call their NYC offices and they'll send it. Have you bought any guide books at all? Fodors Exploring Japan book has a very good map of Kyoto and the sites in it, and several more detailed maps as well. ANd JNTO's website has great walking maps of Kyoto that lay out the sites on areas good to walk in (like Higashiyama, Arashiyama, etc.). Beyond those, you'll be able to pick up some other maps when you get there at the Tourist Info Counter (TIC) at Kyoto Station and at your hotel.

I also really like Clancey's book, "Kyoto, On Foot in the Ancient Capitol". I have used that extensively. I also have New Japan Solo, but after I followed an incorrect map in that book on this last trip, I am not so keen on it anymore.

Yes, jlaughs, doing it that way would be efficient. And it would be convenient with your bags shipped ahead. That is a good idea. You should look for a locker in Kyoto station and stash your carry-on there. If you don't find one in time, then I would fully expect lockers to be at Nara station (would be absolutely shocked if there weren't lockers, but they could be all full, esp if on a wkend or holiday).

Yes there is an advantage to going straight to Nara from Tokyo. If you don't do it that way, then when you arrive at Kyoto you will go to your Kyoto hotel. Next or later, you would travel from your hotel back to Kyoto station and after the daytrip go from the station to your hotel. It is that roundtrip hotel-station-hotel that would be eliminated by going straight to Nara from Tokyo.

Sorry, I mistyped the book info from Amazon:


Exploring Kyoto : On Foot In The Ancient Capital by Judith Clancy (Paperback - Sep 1, 1997)
Books: See all 8 items
Buy new: $19.95 $12.97 Used & new from $11.00 Usually ships in 1 to 3 weeks

As far as not finding a locker goes, I would not be too concerned. At Kyoto station there are people constantly coming and going from the lockers so if you don't find one immediately, then you might have to wait a couple of minutes. If you run out of time and take the bag to Nara then I would not be surprised to see a baggage check place at/near the station lockers. I've see such places at other very touristed places. Would be a good idea if that carry-on was a backpack, though.

Another option for Nara is to visit there enroute to Osaka. No backtracking that way and may (maybe not) save a bit of time depending on where your hotel. I hesitated to mention this because I wouldn't want you to do it and then run out of time for Himeji.

Thanks everyone for your own time experiences & estimates. This will really help to give me an idea of what to expect.

I really would like to see everything on my list, but I certainly don't want it to be "hit-and-run" to just be able to say that I'd been. I guess I'm still a bit confused as to why my list is somewhat "un-doable" or a bit "drive-by touring". I think it's a good idea, in any case, to prioritize what we want to see. I did that for Thailand as well and some things got nixed and others got added as we went along. That said, I did end up regretting some of the things that got nixed after we got back home as they wouldn't have been on my list in the first place if I hadn't wanted to see/do them. But, you can only do what you can do and everything is an experience. As they would say in Thailand, mai pen rai.

So, I am re-reading information about the different sites to determine priority. And, I've just got to get my hands on a good Kyoto map so I can figure out groupings. But, I'd still like to know (for my own curiosity) what I'm missing in thinking that my list is not only doable in 4+ days, but that it would not necessarily be rushed.

someotherguy - Since I had not originally planned to go to Nara on our own, I hadn't even bothered to look at a map to see where it was in relation to Tokyo or Kyoto or check transportation. I did that this morning and realize that my thought of going directly to Nara from Tokyo doesn't really make a lot of sense. Thanks for your feedback.

Thank you to everyone for your feedback. It is truly appreciated.

jlaughs, reread my post. I gave you some good Kyoto map suggestions.