emd,

I said that I hadn't gone back to double-check your reports to show that I wasn't really sure of the accuracy of what I was saying. When I said that I could have sworn, I was just saying that I honestly THOUGHT it was in your report. It was just a phrase, not that I was literally swearing that I was right and you didn't know where you'd been. I even said that maybe I was getting trip reports mixed up (not just your two reports) since I've been reading so many of them.

I am very sorry that you are so offended. No offense was intended.

Eileen,

I am really very upset. I honestly meant no offense. I just want to mention that I never felt a "need" to go back and double-check your reports to see if I was right or not. If I had felt that need, I would have checked before I posted or since. I haven't. I only mentioned that I HADN'T double-checked to show that I wasn't sure. I just honestly thought that you had written about Sanjusangendo because I've created a mental image while reading your reports and, for whatever reason, the image I had of Sanjusangendo seemed like the images I've had of your other experiences.

Again, when I said that "I swear", it was just meant that I could have sworn that I remembered correctly. What was in doubt was my memory, not your honesty.

Well, I've been to Sanjusangen-do and really enjoyed it. The incredible statues, and the long deck outside where they used to hold archery speed contests. You can still see arrow holes in the walls and the rafters!

One thing nice about your trip is that only the Imperial palace requires any sort of advance planning. You can just work down your list as you go along. I would definitely try to attend a local temple fest or 0bon ceremony. These are always highlight of our trips.

I made a huge mistake in my above post- the Kinkakuji (Golden Pavillion, in NW Kyoto is a don't miss. The Ginkakuji(silver Pavillion- can be missed) I really think it is popular Only since people get the two mixed up ( like I did)since they sound alike. I've gone 3 times- once alone, once with Husband, and once with kids. Kept thinking it was me, they didn't think silver pavillion was worth time involved either.

You may be able to see all these places. It depends on your speed, the weather, the speed of transit. When some of these places get crowded, it will take a lot longer, since you will spend time trying to get "uncrowded" pictures.

If you just want a relaxing, peaceful walk, you can also do the walk from the Yaska Shrine south towards Yasaka Pagoda and then onto Kyomizu-dera.

You're going to have a great time in Kyoto, no matter how many sights you see!

Kinkakuji is wonderful. It is a reconstruction, built in 1955, and I think it may be scaled down from the original.

Ginkakuji was built in the 15th century and is a UNESCO World Heritage site.

I had to choose between G & K on my first visit to Kyoto and I chose G. I have since been back and visited K and am certain that I made the right choice on my first visit.

I definitely agree that you'll have a great time in Kyoto no matter how many of those sights you see.

It's the authenticity of Ginkakuji that propels it to a higher level in my mind. This thread made me think more about Nara.

Going to Nara, for me, was not just about visiting a beautiful temple. Nara's place in Japanese history makes me interested in being there in that place. Nara was the capital of Japan before Kyoto and is the only place where you will find Todai-ji.
http://web-japan.org/atlas/historical/his13.html
Part of the Daibutsu is from the 8th century, part from the 12th. The Daibutsu-den is a reconstruction, a 300 year old one. Biggest Daibutsu, biggest wooden structure, those facts are interesting. What's fascinating to me is the history behind the place. Unlike other reconstructed sites, this is one that thousands of people have maintained, repaired, rebuilt over a period of more than 1200 years at a cost of billions of yen. They did that, and continue to do so, to keep it as an active shrine and to save it for posterity, for us. This is why I had to see it, to be at that place. There was no adequate substitute for it in Kyoto (for me). The other atractions of Nara were interesting but didn't really factor into my decision to go there.

It was worth it, for me, to go to Nara. There is a lot to see in Japan and you might have to make some tough choices. I suppose the point of this post is to point out that it is important to do some research on each of the sights to determine which are of the most interest to you.

If you want to see some beautiful places and things then you can stay in Kyoto. If you want to see Todaiji (and/or other nearby things) then you will have to go to Nara.

A good example of how all of us get such different experiences. Which is why you have to go where you feel the pull, and find out yourself!

Maybe I am overthinking this but: when I wrote "If you want to see some beautiful places and things then you can stay in Kyoto" I absolutely did not mean to slight Kyoto. I was emphasizing the specific reason for visiting Nara.

Thank you lcuy and mrwunrfl. I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your opinions, but I'm a little "gun shy" to say much now because I'm a bit worried that I'll be misunderstood and I really don't want to offend anyone else unintentionally.

But, I do want to express my appreciation.

I'm sorry, I guess it was the choice of words that I found strange as it sounded to me like you were taking issue w/my statement about where I have been or not been. Peace.

Just to clarify re: Fushimi Inari, I didn't mean that you couldn't enjoy it with less time or that you need to be a hiker to appreciate it. But for me, it was the highlight of our time in Kyoto, especially going early in the day when the morning sunlight was breaking through the trees and we were basically alone...

Truly you can spend as much time as you want to but I would think that you should plan at least an hour if you want to get a glimpse of the shrine and what makes it so unique...

I knew there must have been a reason that I thought walking the Path of Philosophy at night was a possibility. I just read the recommendation again in my Lonely Planet book. "During the day, be prepared for crowds of tourists; a night stroll will definitely be quieter."

Although it's in the book, I still welcome the opinion of those who have been on whether the walk would be worth doing in the evening. Or is the real appeal the shops along the way which would be closed in the evening? I like the idea of a stroll that might be relaxing and offer a chance to be reflective, but is that what we'd find by going to the path in the evening/night? Of course, we may not welcome it at all depending on how our feet are feeling at that point.

Thanks.

lucy, you are absolutely right about that!

mrwunrfl,

Thank you for making me reread lcuy's (btw, is it lucy or lcuy?) last post. Although it's nice to get opinions from others, it's ultimately up to each of us to decide what appeals to us and what doesn't. Given that, I think that we *will* plan to stroll the path in the evening (as long as our feet agree). I'll let everyone know how it goes afterwards for anyone else who might be interested in an evening walk along the path.

Thanks!

my screen name is Lcuy, but that happened from a misspelling many years back! I'm actually Lucy

I look forward to your trip report. Kyoto is one of my favorite places, and though I've been there many times, I feel I've only scratched the surface. I love to hear about others' discoveries!

Okay all, I've been working on this and I think I've got a tentative plan. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this:

DAY 1 - Arrive in Kyoto @ either 11:43a or 12:43p (depending on how early we get up and leave Tokyo). Nijo Castle and Nishiki Market for the day/evening, Gion in the evening, Gion Corner performance at 7:40p or 8:40p.

DAY 2 - Kinkaku-ji, Ryoan-ji, Arashiyama (Bamboo groves, Iwatayama Monkey Park, Togetsu-kyo bridge to watch cormorant fishing).

DAY 3 - Nara, Fushimi Inari, some night shopping area? (Teramachi Dori?)

DAY 4 - Sanjusangen-do, Kiyomizu-dera, Kyoto Handicraft Center

DAY 5 - Himeji Castle, then proceed to Osaka

As you can see, I've eliminated Ginkaku-ji and the Kyoto Imperial Palace. I'm still undecided whether to leave the palace in and take out the monkey park. We've both been to Lopburi in Thailand, which is not a monkey park, but a monkey experience nonetheless.

I also didn't specifically plan for the Philosophy Path, but if we do go, it would have to be the evening of Day 4.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jlaughs. Just read your post and your latest itinerary list. I thought maybe some of our experience might help. Just be ready to change the day's plan and adjust the next day. It is such a wonderful city you will see things you didn't even think you wanted to see. I also love to shop so that didn't help either!

I know how you feel about being told you are trying to do to much! I got the same reaction last year when I was planning our time in Kyoto. I had a some what different list of places and we were planning a full day trip to Himeji and points south plus a trip to Nara. We did all that I planned, but had some down time too due to rain. In my first pass at our plan, I had talked about going to Adashino Nembutsu also as it sounded really neat. It was either there or Nara, unfortunatly we picked Nara! We should have do the other.

My suggestion would to make Nara an option on your first afternoon, if it is less than you thought it would be, no great loss of time for other things.

Do try to do the Imperial Palace. Get a 10 am ticket then go to Nijo at 11. They are a great contrast! That gives you the afternoon to do Fushimi Inari and the market, if can go to Nara the afternoon you get to Kyoto.

It will be HOT in Nara so you need to go early morning or late afternoon any way. I didn't realize Nara was really a big city with the park sort of in the center.

I copied some of my report( a response to another post) here to give you a idea, but you will be fine with four or so major sites a day. And yes, an evening walk on the P of P is the way to go! By the way we used the internet "Kyoto Walks" maps by JNTO to plan our time. They are really very good.

"Kyoto in a day" -I will tell you about some of our days, I broke them into Morning and Afternoon sites plus some of the surroudng streets. I had a plan of what we wanted to do for each day. But I will tell you about what we actually did! Each area has at least several sites of impotantance plus many more things that are of local color and interesting. All the "most sees" are great and any "one" plus the area around it will give you a taste of how beautiful Japan is! We found that it was easy to walk to the different sites in a given section and every interesting-we saw lots of local color and were able to get off the tourist path by walking.

Getting around-there several buses that do a loop around the major sights from the train station, but the taxis are not really expensive and were worth the saving of time and language problems to get to a major site. From the train station we found $10-$12 would get you to Nijo Castle or the Gion area. From there you can walk and explore many more interesting places. From the train station you can also take the subway to these areas-cheap and fast. We did this too, but found the taxi the easiest.

By days here is what we did.

Day 1, AM- We walked (took about 20mins) from our Hotel(Okura) to our 10am tour at the Imperial Palace in English.)There is a subway from the train station to the Imperial Palace Gardens.) We enjoyed this site and our guide was good. it gave us aot of history that really helped understand some of the other sites too. You don't go into the Palace, but doors are open and you can see inside. It is mainly the gardens and the building stlye that are so beautiful. The Imperial Palace grounds are nice too. There were no crowds of tourist! The cherry trees were still in bloom while we were there, so that was extra special. This took about 1 hour to see.

From the Palace entrance we walked zigzaging through the small alleyway like streets toward Horikawa-dori and Nijo Castle. We saw small gardens and shops and many interesting homes. We came out on Horikawa about half way to Nijo. We found a small "Pastry" shop and bought some wonderful fresh rolls with meat filling and some pastries and had a mini picnic on the Castle grounds. The walk took about an hour with stops.

Nijo Castle is very interesting and definitely worth seeing, you tour on your own most of the inside and many rooms have models in the dress of the period set up. This helps with the understanding of the function of each room as there is no English. There were more tourist here -especially older school children. The gardens are most impressive and were especially colorful with all the cherry blooms draping over the garden walks. This took us about another hour.

It started to rain as we left the Castle about 1:30, so we took a cab back to the Hotel on Oike-dori at the river- min charge of ~$5.50. But there is a subway stop in front of Nijo that will take you to Kamaramichi Station(basicly where our hotel was). This stop is a great place to start an afternoon exploring Kyoto's great shopping district including the Taramachi Shopping Arcade.

If you are not into shopping, just walk over to Pontocho Alley(an interesting alley like street next to the river lined with old buildings that are bars and small resturants on the river side and a tree lined canal on the other) and walk down to Shijo-dori. If you walk across the river here, you are on the edge of the Gion Disrict. You can spend the rest of the afternoon walking the narrow streets on either side of Shijo-dori up to Yasaka Shrine. I really liked this shrine and the area. We came to this area almost every evening exploring different streets up to the Shrine on our way to a dinner spot. There are great places to eat down the back alleys. The back streets really give you a feel for old Japan, especially when you see a lady in a beautiful kimono!

Day 1, PM It stopped raining about 3:30, so we took a taxi from the hotel to Ginkakuji(~$8). For some reason the temple was closed for the afternoon, so we didn't see it.

From there we walked down the Philosopher's Path. This is an interesting walk and there are several nice temples along the way. From Konchi-in Temple we worked our way along the canal to the large orange Tori in front of Heinan Shrine and continued along the canal to Higashioji. This walk took us about a hour, more if you go in any of the temples. I would do it again in a heart beat-there are lots of Temples and interesting local life along the way! We ate at the Garlic Restaurant above the Gion Kaikan Theater across from the Yasaka Shrine. This was very good and fun too. There were lots of young Japanese couples there- it seemed popular-Japanese dishes-chop sticks only!, no tourist. From there we walked back Shijo-dori across the river and up Ponotcho Alley to the Hotel.(From our Hotel it was a $10 taxi ride to the Train Station or we could just the two subways.)

There are two JNTO Kyoto Walks that we used. They were were the most helpful in walking -"Along the Old Canal" and "Higashiyama Area".

You could take a taxi to Ginkakuji from the Station (probably ~$20)- see it and maybe another temple and walk back to the Yasaka Shrine in a morning. Have lunch around the Shrine and walk over to Kiyomizu Temple in the afternoon and take a taxi to the station. Sounds lie a lot of walking, but we didn't find it so. It could be done in a day. Plus there is so much to see in this area-more than just tourist traps.

Day 2,AM Since it was the 21st of the month, we took the E-W Subway in front of our hotel and changed to N-S subway to the train station. From there we walked to the Toji Temple Market. Wow what a treat! Hundreds of booths of neat stuff-clothes, antiques, household goods, food, plants and things I have no idea what they were! I shopped and looked till my husband couldn't stand it anymore! But as I said I did find three beautiful silk obis. One is a lotus flower and bird pattern with gold threads, the other two are ivory tone on tone patterns, one birds and the other flowers. All are in great shape. My husband tried some of the stall food, but I didn't because of my soy allergy! We walked over to the Garden area and wonder around for a while. This is really a nice garden and Pagoda. The temple is massive and really interesting too. We walked back to the station and found a storage locker for our "finds".

PM - We bought tickets on the Kintetsu Limited for Nara. As I said I was disappointed in Nara. First it is a big city! When you get off the Train and walk up to the street, it looks just like Kyoto, so for me the first impression was a real turn off. I expected more of a village setting for some reason! We found a food take out place and bought some more of the sandwich like rolls that we found so fresh and good. We walked up the street past Kofuku-ji. These grounds aren't nearly as nice as Toji to me. We walked on the the Park, found a place(tree stump) to sit and had lunch. Fortunally the deer did not find us, but we could see them and since it was hot we could smell them too! We then walked on to the Todaiji Temple grounds. It was a hot sunny day, more so, since Kyoto had been so cool and cloudy the last two days. The Nandai and Daibutsu are massive and interesting but were crowded with school children. I did not think the park very nice-lots tourist stands around the sites, not too much grass, no flowers, but lots of sand. From there we walked up the hill to Kasuga-taisha. That must be neat when all the lanterns are lighted. At this point, my husband was bored with temples and I was hot so we walked back to the train station bought tickets back to Kyoto.

Agsin we walked over to the Gion District from the Hotel for dinner. It was dark and Yasaka Shrine was lighted up so we walked around a bit. I got some of the most interesting pictures of the trip!

Day 3 We took a taxi to the train station for the 7:44am Shinkansen Hikari to Himeji.I bought all our tickets the day before based on my HPERDIA research. We arrived at 8:31 and walked up to the Castle. This took about 20mins. We could see the Castle the whole way so no chance to get lost! We got to the entrance gate about 5 mins before it openned. Like all things Japanese there were two men standing there, one by the gate and another by a bell with a watch. At exactely 9, one hit the bell several times as the other openned the gate! There were only two other people there so we had it all to ourselves. It is a beautiful Castle, well maintained, one of only a few that haven't been destroyed. Plus there were still some cherry blooms-I was so surprised! It took about an 1 1/2 hours to see at our own pace with an English guide booklet we got with our tickets. The Castle is huge and six stories up, but worth the climb! We walked back to the station and stopped at a covered shopping area where we got a lunch to go- there are great little places on every street almost!

We caught the 11:41 Shinkansen Nozomi for Hiroshima and ate lunch along the way. At 12:45 we walked out of Hiroshima station and caught the tram in front of the main entrance for the "A" Dome and Peace Park. It took about 20 mins to get to the park. All my husband wanted to see was the Dome. Since we had already spent time at the memorial museum in Nagasaki, we just walked around a bit. At a board member's suggestion went to the Hall of Rememberance. This Hall was worth the trip! It is an under ground building displaying the stories and pictures from people who lived through the experience.

From there we went back to the tram stop boarded it and rode to the end of the line which was the Miyajima Ferry dock (another 40 mins). We took the 10 min ferry across to the Island. Is is a very scenic island noted for its floating Torii. The Tide was just coming in at about 3:30, so we got to see the people clamming around. We wandered around the shops and then on out to the Itsukushima Shrine. We walked back across the inlet by the Torri(it is huge) and found a Okonomamiyaki shop back in the village. By this time all the day trippers were gone! This is a neat pancake like dish that the cook made right in front of us! It was great to watch and eat! We walked back to the park and Torii for me to get some pictures as the sun set over the bay behind the Torii. This was a beautiful setting and I got great pictures. The Island is peaceful this time of day and we really enjoyed it. There are other neat things to see on the Island, but my husband was tired of the Temples and much preferred the park area.

We caught the ferry back to the mainland and bought tickets on the next local train to Hiroshima Station. This all took maybe an hour. We had tickets for the 8:33 Shinkansen Nozomi, but it was only 7:15 when we got to the Station so I changed the tickets for the next Nozomi at 7:30. It was about 9 when we got back to Kyoto. It was a great day. I am glad we did the trip. It was one of our most fun day.

We had one more day before we went to the Osaka Pier. We spent this day seeing the things we missed that we felt we really wanted to see.

The Kyoto Walks by the JNTO were the biggest help to us. The little street like map is very detailed about things to look for. You can spend a whole day wondering from Kiyomizu Temple to Ginkakuji.

Some of the best sites are there and so much of it has that wonderful feel of what Japan must have been like before modern buildings.

Our last day was spent seeing things in a very disorganized way, but I think it was because we side tracked ourselves some.

AM- I wanted to see the Kiyomizu Temple at sunrise, but well! We took a taxi there about 7:30 ($10). The first of many later groups of older schoolchildern had just arrived and were having their picture made in front of the Gate. This a beautiful Temple complex, and if it is a clear day like ours, the view of the city below is very nice. It is really worth seeing and is a good staring or ending point for a day tour in that part of the city. From there we worked our way down to Higashioji through the interesting narrow streets.

We caught a taxi (`$24) to Kinkaku-ji(Gold Pavilion). I really wanted to see this temple because of its history and I was not disappointed. It and its grounds a really beautiful. If we had seen Ginkakuji earlier, we probably would not have made the effort as it is some distance from other sites.

From there we took a taxi back to the Nijo Castle area($8). There was a sword shop my husband wanted to see. We also went to a kimono shop in the same area. That was most interesting as it turned out to be a store front on an old home. The kimono area was in the back in the rooms of the home. I was treated like a queen as I was still looking for an antique obi for me-the others were for my girls. Finally picked a 1920's style with rich colors and gold threads in a large flower design. It was a wonderful hour for me and kimono clad young women entertained my husband in front with tea!

From there we took the E-W subway to the hotel stop(last one I think) We wanted to have a traditional tempura meal. There is a great little restaurant -Takasebure in the alleyway off Sanjo-dori near the river. Well I thought there was a bar we could eat at and there was, but they insisted we eat in one of the special rooms. It was a wonderful experience and the food was out of this world. But again I am sure there was alot of eye rolling behind the screens-no shoes, no chairs, foot high tables, beautiful presentations, but no clue as to what to do with some of the food items!! Finally after much hand waving when the second course was served, my husband handed his chop sticks to the server(an older woman in a kimono on her knees at the head of the table) to show us what she wanted us to do- ie- put the lovely pile of noodles on top of the tempura in the bowl of soup! Then she smiled and bowed herself out of the screen enclosed room and pulled the sceen closed!! It was another wonderful hour or so and the food was the best!

Then we walked backover the bridge to some of the antique shops in the Gion area we had seen on the night walks. After that my husband walked back to the hotel and I walked over to the Shopping Arcade and spent some time before walking back to the hotel.

We left in the taxi for the pier about 3:30. It took a little over a hour tp get to the pier.

Well as usual I hit the post key to early! Hope my reports helps with a daily time line for you. Plan for all your "must sees', but be willing to miss one for something, if you find something wonderful along the way along the way.

Have a great trip!

cwn, I need to tell you that I am SO glad you are back here!

Thanks emd, but there are a lot of people on this board who have much more travel knowledge about Japan/Asia than I do.

We just tend to travel "fast" and and enjoy that way. It is not everyone's style. I think it should be put forth though.

My comment was meant to be more simple than that. I just like having you here. Some people kind of come and go, and I like having them around when they post.

BTW, I miss Florence and Kappa these days...