I understand that Japanese is usually taught first using hiragana bust eventually uses Kanji. Is the Kanji they use in Japan the same they use in China? Is the symbol for car the same in both countries?

The Chinese of today write with many simplified kanjis. One of the things Mao did, I heard. Somehow less beautiful in terms of calligraphy, in my opinion. However, it must be more practical and easier to learn. Still many kanjis used in China and Japan seem the same or very similar looking. If the Japanese use more ancient kanjis than the Chinese of today, maybe it is comparable to French words used in France itself and in other francophone countries such as Belgium, Switzerland and Canada where some ancient versions are still in use. <BR><BR>Above is according to an understanding <BR>of one Japanese but I have never really checked academically.

I speak Mandarin, and I've had some Japanese lessons at two different schools in the past, although I've long forgotten what little I knew. With Chinese you begin learning characters from the beginning, but Japanese teachers seem concerned almost to make you frightened of them by the way they insist that characters (kanji) are difficult, and so you should start with the two alphabets instead. I know many foreign speakers of Japanese who have subsequently made almost no progress with their kanji, and, like many younger Japanese today, rely on those tiny little phonetic symbols which dance above the characters on many signposts to help them out.<BR><BR>The characters in use in China today are in some cases identical to those in use in Japan, but in many cases not. The Chinese writing system travelled to Japan many centuries ago, and there have been long periods when the two countries have been cut off from one another, and the writing systems have developed in their own ways. The Japanese and Chinese have separately come up with new characters, and the meanings of the old characters have in some cases drifted apart. Additionally, China undertook a botched programme of language reform in the late 1950s, in which the most coommonly used characters were simplified in seven different and inconsistent ways. Those in use in mainland China therefore often differ very strikingly from those in use in Hong Kong and in Chinese communities overseas, let alone in Japan. At other times recognition is merely a question of substituting a part of a character which takes 14 strokes to write with one which takes three, for instance. The characters used in Japan more closely resemble the older Chinese forms, but many are still recognisable to the reader of modern standard Chinese, especially if he or she knows a few substitutions of full-form for simplified elements. I have no trouble with navigation in Japan, or with most simple shopping tasks, for instance, although I read neither of the phonetic scripts in use there.<BR><BR>Where characters are almost certain to differ are in the use of terms from the 19th century onwards, and modern inventions. Japanese is happy (despite the beginnings of attempts to suppress this) to import foreign words to the point that conversations discussing communications or even any foods not originally from Japan, often sound as if they are 50% in English, and the terms used have no kanji forms. The Chinese, however, have invented their own terms for modern inventions and imports, and not attempted to phoneticize them.<BR><BR>Thus it takes two characters to say the modern 'car' in Mandarin, although it can be abbreviated to one which is also used in Japan in its more complicated form, but not in the same way. Railway station in Mandarin is three characters which mean literally 'fire cart stop', whereas in Japanese it's a single character pronouced 'eki', which doesn't exist in Chinese. 'Cake' (a Western import to both countries) in Mandarin is often translated as the two-character egg-pudding, whereas the Japanese call it 'keiki' (quite possibly misspelled here) and write it phonetically.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

In Taiwanese Chinese, they seem to use the same kanji for "Car". Not sure about the main China. I know the Chinese use different kanjis to write <BR>"train" from the Japanese.<BR> <BR>I think the Taiwanese do not use the simplified kanji since Mao's "Cultural Revolution" did not affect Taiwan.

Indeed, Taiwan uses full-form characters which are much closer to those used in Japan, and was influenced to some degree by its long period under Japanese rule when adopting expressions for modern inventions. I've heard older Taiwanese say 'pasuporuto' (spelling?) for 'passport', for instance, rather than the usual Mandarin 'huzhao'.<BR><BR>To be fair to Mao (always tricky), the well-intentioned if badly done language reform (and I certainly agree that many of the resulting characters are ugly and less informative than their predecessors) pre-dated the murderous and destructive Cultural Revolution of 1966-76.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Peter N-H, Thanks for your informative posts.

Bonjour all, <BR><BR>I know quite a number of Chinese living in Geneva, who all complain of the ugliness of the simplified characters introduced during the "cultural revolution" and want their children to learn the classic characters. <BR><BR>I found out that with my feeble grasp of written Japanese, I could read quite a lot of Chinese basic documents (resumes, id), which often came in handy to help Chinese students to go through administrative procedures. I can't read Chinese newpapers to the (very small) extent I can read Japanese papers and magazines, though. Some characters and combinations definitely differ from one language to the other.<BR><BR>When I started to learn Japanese, I discovered that kanji are not all that difficult, if you take the pain to study the theory behind the strokes order. It is more a question of time and dedication than a real cultural obstacle. I'm still very far from fluent in the language (spoken and written), but I've found that the best way to progress is to "make friends with kanji", as advised here : http://edochan.com/ed/writing/japanese.htm &lt;i&gt;"if you know some or all or the kanji that make up a word, the word stops being a random collection of sounds and becomes a logical(ish) combination of easily-remembered pictures.&lt;/i&gt; Sticking to the hiragana is more a hindrance than a help to progress.<BR><BR>I'm very, very contraried there is no Japanese bookstore in Geneva anymore, outside the Boutique Japonaise in Carouge ... I have to go to Paris or London in order to find my favorite magazine (Orange Page, Sutekina Okusan, Kyo no Ryory, Tanko, Nihongo Journal, ...) ;-)<BR><BR>

So Matt, are you getting the informations you are looking for so far?<BR><BR>Florence, yes since the book store Yamato has been closed. Every time I return home I buy lots of books and some mangas. At Boutique japonaise, I bought a few things in last months mostly as gifts for friends. The best (and most expensive) one I bought there is a Ten-nyo no hagoromo doll (of Noh theater)of great quality that I had found upstairs. You can't compare it to the tacky geisha dolls you see at Tschin-Tani tea shops! I'm proud a good friend of mine has it diplayed at home. (Matt, sorry for another hijacking.This had nothing to do with your questions.)