Family Trip to Thailand September 2011...Novice & Need Advice
Nov 29th, 2010, 11:20 PM
#21
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I’ve re-read my posts a few times and don’t see any indication that the <i>location</i> of any hotel was part of my comments. My comments were directed at the concept that independent restaurants benefit a local community more than a restaurant located in a hotel run by a “multi-national”. The location of a hotel would not be related to this issue.
I also don’t see where I indicated that beef served in an independent restaurant would be from NZ. I believe it is quite likely that the beef can easily have come from Cambodia or Malaysia. That is why I suggested you enquire about this, as it may surprise you. Cambodian or Malay beef does not benefit the local community any more than NZ beef.
If you can tell from looking at a restaurant that it is “owner-operated 100% local”, then your x-ray vision is far better than mine. Perhaps you should consider police work. However, your vision may need a tune-up, as The Patayya Beer Garden, which I believe you patronized on your last trip, is co-owned by a New Zealand national. See http://www.pattayabeergarden.com/newspaper.html. I’d be curious to know what percentage of his profits Peter Janoup puts back into the local community. Based on close to 20 years living and working in Asia, in my experience, it is impossible to tell ownership based on a casual visit, as you may now be aware. It is also virtually impossible to discern if you do a company search, because there are bound to be nominee holders; esp in Thailand where foreigners can’t own a majority interest in a company, and cannot own land (so nominees - or spouses- are used to disguise ownership). For example, in addition to the Beer Garden, a number of bars and restaurants in Patayya are owned by foreign retirees (often pilots) who live in the area and who work out partnership agreements with locals who front their businesses.
And of course a small independent restaurant is not obligated to allow unions in to represent the interests of the local employees in terms of working conditions, which hotels and larger corporate businesses in Thailand are required to do. So you may be benefitting the owner’s wallet, but possibly not the actual employees who are serving you.
It is not my intention to single out the choices made by any one individual here. My intent is to illustrate that this issue is far too complex to be turned into a sound bite. Like most reductionist arguments, a statement like “multi-national hotels don’t benefit locals” cannot begin to encompass all the points which need to be considered when making a decision of what business to patronize. That is my objection to those types of statements. I don’t have any issue with where people choose to go. Basing a decision on price is an extremely useful, and simple, way to make a choice. However, if the choice is going to be based on “patronizing locally owned businesses”, then there should be a clear understanding of what choices may (and may not) accomplish this.
I also don’t see where I indicated that beef served in an independent restaurant would be from NZ. I believe it is quite likely that the beef can easily have come from Cambodia or Malaysia. That is why I suggested you enquire about this, as it may surprise you. Cambodian or Malay beef does not benefit the local community any more than NZ beef.
If you can tell from looking at a restaurant that it is “owner-operated 100% local”, then your x-ray vision is far better than mine. Perhaps you should consider police work. However, your vision may need a tune-up, as The Patayya Beer Garden, which I believe you patronized on your last trip, is co-owned by a New Zealand national. See http://www.pattayabeergarden.com/newspaper.html. I’d be curious to know what percentage of his profits Peter Janoup puts back into the local community. Based on close to 20 years living and working in Asia, in my experience, it is impossible to tell ownership based on a casual visit, as you may now be aware. It is also virtually impossible to discern if you do a company search, because there are bound to be nominee holders; esp in Thailand where foreigners can’t own a majority interest in a company, and cannot own land (so nominees - or spouses- are used to disguise ownership). For example, in addition to the Beer Garden, a number of bars and restaurants in Patayya are owned by foreign retirees (often pilots) who live in the area and who work out partnership agreements with locals who front their businesses.
And of course a small independent restaurant is not obligated to allow unions in to represent the interests of the local employees in terms of working conditions, which hotels and larger corporate businesses in Thailand are required to do. So you may be benefitting the owner’s wallet, but possibly not the actual employees who are serving you.
It is not my intention to single out the choices made by any one individual here. My intent is to illustrate that this issue is far too complex to be turned into a sound bite. Like most reductionist arguments, a statement like “multi-national hotels don’t benefit locals” cannot begin to encompass all the points which need to be considered when making a decision of what business to patronize. That is my objection to those types of statements. I don’t have any issue with where people choose to go. Basing a decision on price is an extremely useful, and simple, way to make a choice. However, if the choice is going to be based on “patronizing locally owned businesses”, then there should be a clear understanding of what choices may (and may not) accomplish this.
Nov 30th, 2010, 11:19 AM
#22
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Where was the statement made that "muli-nationals hotels dont's benefit locals". You quote this as if it was a statement made by myself. My actual words were "I prefer to support and patronize locally owned businesses rather than being fleeced by multi-nationals" and I stand by this statement and nothing you have said has done anything to convince me otherwise.
Sure, if you go back across my 13 trips to Thailand there will be instances where I have eaten at places that wern't 100% locally owned. So good of you to dredge through all my previous posts and pull out an example of this. Maybe you should consider investigative jounalism. I have never made a comment that I would never eat at a place that had some foreign ownership, just that my prefernce is to seek small family owned restaraunts to patronize. I dont need "x-ray vision", as you put it, to establish this. At many of this places that we regularly patronize we will talk to and end up eating with the owners and their famalies.
Of couse there are places that are 49% owned by expats. Some of these "foreigners" have lived in Thailand for many years and support their Thai wife, children and their in-laws with these businesses. I have certainly been to many of these but cant say if that I have been to any bars in Pattaya that were owned by airline pilots. I was never all that crazy about Pattaya as you probably already know from searching my posts.
There is something that I would like to ask you Cicerone. Do you happen to work for a large "Multi-National" Hotel chain?
I do apoligize to you, Tara, for turning your post into a "soap-box" but my initial responses were aimed at being helpful and trying to enhance your experience. I still maintain that some of our most magical momments spent in Thailand have been whilst engaging with local families at their small, independant, restaraunts with "plastic chairs and buckets of charm". Try to find one. It is getting harder but they still do exsist.
Sure, if you go back across my 13 trips to Thailand there will be instances where I have eaten at places that wern't 100% locally owned. So good of you to dredge through all my previous posts and pull out an example of this. Maybe you should consider investigative jounalism. I have never made a comment that I would never eat at a place that had some foreign ownership, just that my prefernce is to seek small family owned restaraunts to patronize. I dont need "x-ray vision", as you put it, to establish this. At many of this places that we regularly patronize we will talk to and end up eating with the owners and their famalies.
Of couse there are places that are 49% owned by expats. Some of these "foreigners" have lived in Thailand for many years and support their Thai wife, children and their in-laws with these businesses. I have certainly been to many of these but cant say if that I have been to any bars in Pattaya that were owned by airline pilots. I was never all that crazy about Pattaya as you probably already know from searching my posts.
There is something that I would like to ask you Cicerone. Do you happen to work for a large "Multi-National" Hotel chain?
I do apoligize to you, Tara, for turning your post into a "soap-box" but my initial responses were aimed at being helpful and trying to enhance your experience. I still maintain that some of our most magical momments spent in Thailand have been whilst engaging with local families at their small, independant, restaraunts with "plastic chairs and buckets of charm". Try to find one. It is getting harder but they still do exsist.
Dec 1st, 2010, 03:47 PM
#25
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we went to thailand when my kids were 13 and 15. they HATED Bankock. crowded, temples, noisy... they LOVED the day gong to tong's "secret" place though, and it was one of the trip's highlights. our whole trip was 12 days including international flights, and we went to phuket, BKK and a trek from chiang mai to chiang rai, with an overnight at the elephant conservation centre. it was not rushed at all, as we minimized time in BKK and flew everywhere. even though it was high season (Xmas) costs were ok. it is doable. be active, river raft, hike etc and the kids will have a blast. too many temples will spoil your holiday- I think BKK is an adult destination
Dec 1st, 2010, 06:04 PM
#26
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Our kids really liked BAngkok and they were 5and8 years old. They liked the snake farm we went to when we were told the Palace was closed for lunch...yes, I knew it was a scam but all of the rest of the familybbelieved it. My point...go with the flow and all will havevfun. It rained all day for four days in Vietnam a a beach resort and the kids had a great time with the other kids there. The adults got a bit bored and restless. It's all good.
Dec 4th, 2010, 12:12 AM
#27
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Be VERY careful with supporting any of the animal attractions - Thailand's record on animal welfare is terrible and the reality worse!
You can just end up giving money to people who think animals are no more than commodities to be exploited.
THey are particularly aware of how persuasive children can be with their parents so a lot of the advertising etc is aimed at them.
You can just end up giving money to people who think animals are no more than commodities to be exploited.
THey are particularly aware of how persuasive children can be with their parents so a lot of the advertising etc is aimed at them.
Dec 6th, 2010, 04:10 PM
#28
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Hi TaraT, Just skimmed this thread - Seems to have gotten off topic. If your kids love elephants, I think it's a mistake to not do elephant camp at the Anantara (or a similar experience in Chaing Mai).
I also agree with banek about Bangkok - though cool and epic for a huge city, it's not an ideal destination for kids unless they're shopping or temple fanatics. So I recommend 4 nights Phuket/4 nights Golden Triangle area/2 nights BKK.
BTW, we had no jet lag issues with the kids. Like you, we arrived late at night and they went right to sleep and hit the ground running. In general, we all went to bed earlier and got up earlier than we do at home, but we didn't experience sleepless all-nighters like we do when in Europe.
I also agree with banek about Bangkok - though cool and epic for a huge city, it's not an ideal destination for kids unless they're shopping or temple fanatics. So I recommend 4 nights Phuket/4 nights Golden Triangle area/2 nights BKK.
BTW, we had no jet lag issues with the kids. Like you, we arrived late at night and they went right to sleep and hit the ground running. In general, we all went to bed earlier and got up earlier than we do at home, but we didn't experience sleepless all-nighters like we do when in Europe.
