China Spree
Oct 26th, 2015, 05:49 PM
#4
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Can you say why you are not interested in traveling independently for this trip? There are SO many problems with guided tours in China, including overcharging and forced stops to purchase cheaply made stuff.
No tour is necessary unless you really want one, and in China, tours are often a VERY bad idea. Tours in China will cost FAR more than it would cost to travel independently, the guides rarely have accurate information (as they have minimal access to anything that isn't government approved), you will probably stay in hotels that are just OK, and you will probably not end up in restaurants where you can eat extraordinarily delicious local specialties at very affordable prices.
No tour is necessary unless you really want one, and in China, tours are often a VERY bad idea. Tours in China will cost FAR more than it would cost to travel independently, the guides rarely have accurate information (as they have minimal access to anything that isn't government approved), you will probably stay in hotels that are just OK, and you will probably not end up in restaurants where you can eat extraordinarily delicious local specialties at very affordable prices.
Dec 3rd, 2015, 10:54 AM
#5
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Tidy...my first trip to China was in 1984 when the Chinese government would not allow any visitors without an approved tour and guide, also city guides provided by the government. We lucked out by signing with what turned out to be an excellent Tour company, Pacific Delight hqtred in NYC. It was exciting and a different China by far than that which we returned to in 2007. Needless to say, we broke off from the tour whenever it was practical and sdvantageous to do so.
Our two oldtime friends went along with us and we were the "bad" guys who drove the guides nuts...but we had fun! We sampled street food, inspected hospitals where wards had tripe-decker beds!(friend is a doc and I was his "intern" and our wives were nurses), and hopped on busses, hitched rides on trucks and military vehicles(no private cars then)explored everywhere, etc. Of course, we were all younger then!
In 2007, we jumped at the chance to do another China trip independently ...and it was super, only hiring guides in certain cities for specific reasons. Made all arrangements on our own, transportation, lodgings, restaurant choices and our own itinerary of where and what we wanted to see and do. It was nearly four weeks and we loved every minute, being fiercely independent for so many decades traveling around the world.
Do it on your own, is my suggestion. But whatever you choose to do, you will enjoy!!! Go, Tidy girl, go!!
Our two oldtime friends went along with us and we were the "bad" guys who drove the guides nuts...but we had fun! We sampled street food, inspected hospitals where wards had tripe-decker beds!(friend is a doc and I was his "intern" and our wives were nurses), and hopped on busses, hitched rides on trucks and military vehicles(no private cars then)explored everywhere, etc. Of course, we were all younger then!
In 2007, we jumped at the chance to do another China trip independently ...and it was super, only hiring guides in certain cities for specific reasons. Made all arrangements on our own, transportation, lodgings, restaurant choices and our own itinerary of where and what we wanted to see and do. It was nearly four weeks and we loved every minute, being fiercely independent for so many decades traveling around the world.
Do it on your own, is my suggestion. But whatever you choose to do, you will enjoy!!! Go, Tidy girl, go!!
Dec 15th, 2015, 04:59 PM
#6
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Why is everyone who comes to this forum asking questions about tours badgered by people who absolutely insist they travel on their own. It's tiresome and is driving people away. This forum is dead.
my two cents.
my two cents.
Dec 15th, 2015, 05:38 PM
#7
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greenie, if you have taken a ChinaSpree tour and have comments, please contribute those. If you find group tours useful, please comment on that. People here comment based on their own experiences. If your experiences are different, please tell us about your experiences.
Dec 15th, 2015, 05:46 PM
#8
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@ greenie -- I don't see anyone "insisting" that anyone travel on his / her own, nor do I see any badgering. I see people, myself included, trying to provide useful information.
Since this forum was once quite vibrant with multiple threads by various independent travelers, even though expressions of concern about tours were just as common then as now, I don't think our recommendations to consider independent travel are related to the decline in posts. My guess is that the causes are more likely to be related to the dangerous levels of pollution in China in recent years and the unfortunate departure of Fodor's true expert on China.
Just my two cents. ;-)
Since this forum was once quite vibrant with multiple threads by various independent travelers, even though expressions of concern about tours were just as common then as now, I don't think our recommendations to consider independent travel are related to the decline in posts. My guess is that the causes are more likely to be related to the dangerous levels of pollution in China in recent years and the unfortunate departure of Fodor's true expert on China.
Just my two cents. ;-)
Dec 29th, 2015, 06:43 PM
#9
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I was both on my own AND used a company in China for some of the trip. Where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do would have been highly problematic independently.
Furthermore, I have a good friend living in Beijing who speaks Chinese and even he uses a company for travel planning and a personal guide. Depending on what you want to do, it can be very time consuming and difficult to simply go it on your own.
I am a very independent traveler, but China presents some unique frustrations.
And I also find that some admonitions here are over-the-top insulting and badgering. Although it is possible to get ripped off, a little due diligence can help find quality tour organizations. Yes, you will pay for it, understood, but many folks traveling to China have enough money to cover that if that is how they want to go.
Furthermore, I have a good friend living in Beijing who speaks Chinese and even he uses a company for travel planning and a personal guide. Depending on what you want to do, it can be very time consuming and difficult to simply go it on your own.
I am a very independent traveler, but China presents some unique frustrations.
And I also find that some admonitions here are over-the-top insulting and badgering. Although it is possible to get ripped off, a little due diligence can help find quality tour organizations. Yes, you will pay for it, understood, but many folks traveling to China have enough money to cover that if that is how they want to go.
Dec 29th, 2015, 07:20 PM
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@ shelemm -- where did you go that would have been so problematic or frustrating on an independent basis? When did you attempt it, and are you certain that the same challenges remain today? Are you comfortable with the consequences of Westerners' willingness to pay what Chinese citizens would find excessive amounts for things they also want (or need) to do? (I won't comment on choices make by people who live in Beijing -- their priorities are, I suspect, quite different than those of tourists.) I'm not posting to criticize you, but to engage you in a conversation that any serious consideration of your post requires, IMO.
Dec 29th, 2015, 09:00 PM
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With all due respect to all of the frequent posters in the Asia forum, I believe that there is not a black or white solution when it comes to "tours." I have known two groups of people that have traveled to China "semi-independently," where a guide and driver would meet them in each city, and take them around for the duration of their stay. In one case, it was a lady and her elderly mother, and they felt more secure having a driver the whole time. In the other case, there were six people, and my friend, who was part of this group, told me that it avoided disputes about restaurants, and the order of sightseeing for the day.
When I travel, I like to make all my own arrangements, and when necessary, I use a driver, but rarely a guide. However, as the years go by, I have found that I enjoy the days when I have a driver, as I do get weary of watching for the right bus, and just trying to pace my day, which is a quality of a good driver.
Here is an example of when I really needed a guide in China, but did not have one. In 2007, my adult sons and I were in Xi'An, and one of them wanted to climb the five peaks at Huashan. We had a driver from the Hyatt take us to the starting point. On the bus ride up to the chair lift, the same son befriended a Chinese young lady, and she asked us to join her and her father, and their group of 12 on the climb. We had a wonderful day with them, and if it hadn't been for our "tour", we never would have found all of the peaks.
When I travel, I like to make all my own arrangements, and when necessary, I use a driver, but rarely a guide. However, as the years go by, I have found that I enjoy the days when I have a driver, as I do get weary of watching for the right bus, and just trying to pace my day, which is a quality of a good driver.
Here is an example of when I really needed a guide in China, but did not have one. In 2007, my adult sons and I were in Xi'An, and one of them wanted to climb the five peaks at Huashan. We had a driver from the Hyatt take us to the starting point. On the bus ride up to the chair lift, the same son befriended a Chinese young lady, and she asked us to join her and her father, and their group of 12 on the climb. We had a wonderful day with them, and if it hadn't been for our "tour", we never would have found all of the peaks.
Dec 29th, 2015, 09:26 PM
#12
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And with all due respect to you, CaliforniaLady, and with appreciation for offering your perspective, I'm not sure it addresses the point -- which (I believe) has to do with the merits/demerits of group tours to China.
The arrangements your friend and her elderly mother made are not the "usual" arrangements for China Spree or other tours. And if your six friends could only find a way to avoid disputes about restaurants or how to order their days by hiring a drive, well honestly, they probably paid a LOT for failing to come to terms with each other.
If you want a good driver, and know how to negotiate for one, and are comfortable with the consequences for others, go for it! Again, that's quite different than joining an overpriced tour at a non-negotiable price without considering the consequences.
And while I'm glad that you and your sons had that experience of Huashan, I was also invited by various Chinese people to join them when I traveled independently in China -- so I don't see the relevance to this thread, which is on organized tours of China.
Just to be clear -- I'm not opposed to any and all experiences of tours or guides in China. I took advantage of a few for day trips while I was there, too. But again, that's a different question than whether to take a guided tour to China.
The arrangements your friend and her elderly mother made are not the "usual" arrangements for China Spree or other tours. And if your six friends could only find a way to avoid disputes about restaurants or how to order their days by hiring a drive, well honestly, they probably paid a LOT for failing to come to terms with each other.
If you want a good driver, and know how to negotiate for one, and are comfortable with the consequences for others, go for it! Again, that's quite different than joining an overpriced tour at a non-negotiable price without considering the consequences.
And while I'm glad that you and your sons had that experience of Huashan, I was also invited by various Chinese people to join them when I traveled independently in China -- so I don't see the relevance to this thread, which is on organized tours of China.
Just to be clear -- I'm not opposed to any and all experiences of tours or guides in China. I took advantage of a few for day trips while I was there, too. But again, that's a different question than whether to take a guided tour to China.
Dec 29th, 2015, 09:51 PM
#13
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kja, you yourself posed the question tonight, at 8:20 PM, as to where another poster had a problem traveling independently in China. I simply answered your question with my experience at Huashan.
I think it is indeed relevant about semi-independent travelling in China to a thread like this. Every time someone poses a question about a China tour, Fodor posters generally tell them to travel independently. If we offered them a compromise, such as telling them about hiring a driver, with or without a guide, then they may be more inclined to do so.
I think it is indeed relevant about semi-independent travelling in China to a thread like this. Every time someone poses a question about a China tour, Fodor posters generally tell them to travel independently. If we offered them a compromise, such as telling them about hiring a driver, with or without a guide, then they may be more inclined to do so.
Dec 29th, 2015, 10:17 PM
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Hmm, CaliforniaLady -- I didn't hear you report a PROBLEM in traveling independently at Huashan, just a benefit that seems irrelevant to the question. Perhaps I misunderstood....
And yes, I asked shelemm some questions, and would still genuinely like to hear HIS response.
If, CaliforniaLady, you want to point out that independent travel to China can involve an occasional day trip or use of a hired driver, say so -- but I urge you to say so explicitly, rather than pretending they are the same thing as joining a group tour to China.
FWIW, I have found Fodorites to be very generous in pointing out when day trips or hired drivers might make sense within an independent tour -- and in pointing out what they should consider when doing so. These tips have NOT been part of threads about joining a tour, probably because they are, well, not tips about joining a tour. ;-)
And yes, I asked shelemm some questions, and would still genuinely like to hear HIS response.
If, CaliforniaLady, you want to point out that independent travel to China can involve an occasional day trip or use of a hired driver, say so -- but I urge you to say so explicitly, rather than pretending they are the same thing as joining a group tour to China.
FWIW, I have found Fodorites to be very generous in pointing out when day trips or hired drivers might make sense within an independent tour -- and in pointing out what they should consider when doing so. These tips have NOT been part of threads about joining a tour, probably because they are, well, not tips about joining a tour. ;-)
Dec 30th, 2015, 12:44 PM
#15
I'm with kja on this. Hiring an occasional driver is nothing like signing up for a group tour.
I would definitely like to know where shelemm found traveling independently too difficult. I spent seven weeks in China traveling independently (with a few pre-booked hotels, trains and drivers during the October holiday). I enjoyed it very much, but it was in 2004, if it is more difficult now I'd like to know about it in case I plan another trip to China.
I would definitely like to know where shelemm found traveling independently too difficult. I spent seven weeks in China traveling independently (with a few pre-booked hotels, trains and drivers during the October holiday). I enjoyed it very much, but it was in 2004, if it is more difficult now I'd like to know about it in case I plan another trip to China.
Dec 30th, 2015, 03:15 PM
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It will be the final death knell of this forum when dissenting opinions are banned on Fodors. Now that I am no longer traveling I at least enjoy my vicarious kicks in helping other travelers with my rather vast knowledge gained over 70 years of international travel. This amounts to my personal opinions and experiences...and resulting advice.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to voice my opinions. No one is forced to read them. When you see my name, just look the other way if you wish. But remember, some day you will also hang up your traveling gear. Nobody escapes this reality.
I think Kja and Thursdays understand this rationale....I would bet that they feel the very same way. The three of us travel (or have travelled) mostly in similar modes.
Now I'm going to make my suppah! (any opinions?)
Meanwhile, I'll continue to voice my opinions. No one is forced to read them. When you see my name, just look the other way if you wish. But remember, some day you will also hang up your traveling gear. Nobody escapes this reality.
I think Kja and Thursdays understand this rationale....I would bet that they feel the very same way. The three of us travel (or have travelled) mostly in similar modes.
Now I'm going to make my suppah! (any opinions?)
Dec 30th, 2015, 10:16 PM
#17
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@ tower -- I treasure your input; agree that differences of opinions should be welcomed, not discouraged (wouldn't it be awful if we all traveled in the same ways?); and hope you had a good dinner. 
Dec 31st, 2015, 02:49 PM
#18
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Hi Tidy - I have traveled to China several times, all with tour companies. I've traveled with China Spree twice.
I have really enjoyed the group experience. There is structured and unstructured time. Some meals are included, others are on your own. For me, a perfect mix.
The guides are wonderful and speak very good English. They are proud of their country and want you to have a good experience.
Yes, you will go to several factories - pearl, jade, etc. It's part of the experience. You can opt to walk around after the 'dog and pony show'. You've never obligated to buy anything, though you will be told what amazing offers they have.
I could go on and on. I recommend China Spree and think you will create mew memories. Have fun!
I have really enjoyed the group experience. There is structured and unstructured time. Some meals are included, others are on your own. For me, a perfect mix.
The guides are wonderful and speak very good English. They are proud of their country and want you to have a good experience.
Yes, you will go to several factories - pearl, jade, etc. It's part of the experience. You can opt to walk around after the 'dog and pony show'. You've never obligated to buy anything, though you will be told what amazing offers they have.
I could go on and on. I recommend China Spree and think you will create mew memories. Have fun!
