Hey gang!

So many thanks again to everyone for helping make our last trip so special (and for all the wonderful comments on my last thread!)

Time to move on to my favorite part: planning the next trip! So, as some of you know, we'll be heading to Laos & Vietnam (with some layover time in Hong Kong--or another connecting city if you have suggestions) next November with David's folks.

Since I never can start planning too early, I come to you for all your words of wisdom. I don't know where to start except for perhaps posting the very rough itinerary I came up with so far. By no means is this well thought-out. I have so many questions, so I'm sure this will be a very long process, but hope this is a good dropping off point:

Day 1 Depart LAX
Day 2 Arrive Hong Kong (hotel suggestions?)
Day 3 Hong Kong
Day 3 Fly to Luang Prabang (La Residence Phou Vao or Maison Souvannaphoum)
Day 4 Luang Prabang
Day 5 Luang Prabang
Day 6 Bus to Vang Viang (Thavansouk Bungalows)
Day 7 Vang Viang
Day 8 Bus to Vientiane (Green Park)
Day 9 Fly to Hanoi (Metropole or De Syloia)
Day 10 Hanoi
Day 11 Halong Bay (overnight on Dragon Pearl)
Day 12 Overnight train to Sapa (Victoria Express)
Day 13 Sapa (Victoria Sapa Hotel)
Day 14 Sapa
Day 15 Train to Hanoi
Day 16 Fly to Hong Kong/Overnight in Hong Kong (hotel suggestions?)
Day 17 Hong Kong/Return to LAX

All suggestions are welcome--if any of you have read our blog, you know the kind of places we like and the stuff we're looking to experience. I'm very curious about the flights--don't know the best carriers for this route (took EVA last time to BKK) and if we can get from HK to LP easily...so maybe I'll need to rearrange the city-to-city setup.

Also interested in hearing about the bus to VV and Vientiane, and if it's worth it (heard very mixed things so far.)

Also open to cutting back some of Laos and visiting more places in Vietnam, but have heard November is rainy everywhere else but the north.

Keep in mind, too, that on our last trip our only regret was that we felt we tried to pack too much into two weeks--too much traveling, too many airports, etc. Considering we're going with the in-laws this time, we definitely want to be cautious of repeating that this time.

Bring on the madness...can't wait to dive into Dream Vacation #2!

Best,
Bill

What you suggest is, arguably, achievable...but hell, it sure looks like an Asian version of the "Amazing Race" *lol*.

Glad it's you and not me!

I had 21 days including travel and a 7 night (and exceptionally wonderful) 750 kilometre cruise up the Mekong from Saigon to Siem Reap (it really was highly memorable and possibly the best experience in 35 years of visiting almost 40 countries ... www.pandaw.com ).

The balance I spent in Siem Reap, Hanoi (including overnighting on Halong Bay) Hoian and Saigon.

I'd not have wanted to have done more.

I do think you are again trying to pack in way too much. I think you'll be happier with fewer stops.

I don't know of any easy way from Hong Kong to LP. You may want to re-arrange things so you go from Hong Kong to Hanoi, then to LP. In any case, you have airline routing problems.

Hong Kong - a vibrant city, certainly deserves more than 2 days.

As you know, I love LP and would spend more time there. IIt's really a place to soak in the atmosphere.

Think carefully about whether you want to spend the time at Vang Viang. Over on LP, if often gets voted the place most spoiled by tourism. I think you'd be happier with one stop in Laos. You spend no time in Vientiane, you just go there to catch a flight.

Hanoi is a delightful city, but you spend almost no time there. You've taken up your time with trips to Halong Bay and Sapa. I'd say choose one or the other, not both so that you have some time in Hanoi.

So if I were putting it together for you, it would look something like this:
Hong Kong 2 nights
Fly through Hanoi to LP (I think flights are not every day, also this routing would likely require a double-entry visa)
LP - 4 or 5 nights
Hanoi - 2 nights
Halong or Sapa - 2 or 3 nights
Hanoi - 2 nights
Hong Kong 2 nights

This is still too broken up for my taste. If you could get a routing into Hanoi and out of Hong Kong (or vice versa) that would allow you to consolidate all of your HK time into one block. That would help.

Another vote for slowing it all down. I'm personally waiting for eurotraveler to post her report about her recent trip which included Laos.

We've been to HK 3 times, and haven't had enough time there each time, and once was for a week. It's such a cool city, with so much to do and see.

The Boat Landing in Laos offers some cool things that might interest you...and also require more time in Laos.

Kathie is right. I note your comment: "Keep in mind, too, that on our last trip our only regret was that we felt we tried to pack too much into two weeks--too much traveling, too many airports, etc. Considering we're going with the in-laws this time, we definitely want to be cautious of repeating that this time."

Sounds to me like you are either repeating your mistake - or your previous trip was even MORE hectic!

There are, for example, plenty of great day trips from Hanoi, even excluding Halong Bay (when up to 4 hours each day will be speny in a mini bus anyway).

And in November the fog is Sapa could be so bad you will not be able to see your hand in front of your face.

Personally, I'd have grabbed a one hour flight from Hanoi to Hoian, and spent time there in preference to Sapa at the time of year you are visiting.

I too cringe at the idea of trying to fit all this in -- to what end, by the way? So much packing/unpacking, checking in/checking out...

I know that it is hard to pare back the list -- you are traveling such a great distance and there is so much that interests you. he choices can be agonizing. We have all confronted this dilemma.

You were worried about having tackled too much last time though and don't forget that you are likely to move much more slowly traveling in a party of 4 than in a party of 2.

If you research your routing options as Kathie suggested and then eliminate some destinations, you're likely to be much happier. Good luck thinking it through.

What type of hotel are you looking for in Hong Kong, by the way?

Yes, Mitch is right, neither Halong nor Sapa are ideal in November. You could do a day trip to the Perfume Pagoda, for instance from Hanoi. The only problem with HoiAn, Mitch, is that they are going in November, when central VN gets heavy rains and often flooding.

I agree about the rain, Kathie. But I suppose I am a Hoian addict becaue of the old town, and way in which it is a photographer's wonderland *lol*. Even in the rain.

I have some Hoian pics here:

http://jmpr.photium.com/

I get it, I get it...believe me, I KNOW that it's too much. Thus the reason to infer that I had doubts about the amount of stuff I was cramming in to this trip. and hence the reason for the post in the first place.

It's a bummer to hear about Sapa--considering that was one of the places that I, personally, was looking most forward to visiting. I'll have to do some more research and see if the fog issues you all had mentioned outweigh the benefit of visiting anyway.

As for Hong Kong, finding any hotel that seems interesting has proven very elusive. We tend to prefer things on the boutique-y side (for instance, in BKK we loved places like Old Bangkok Inn and the Davis and in Siem Reap, loved FCC) and everything I see in HK looks VERY business-oriented and Western. Fax machines, gyms, conference halls, 350 rooms, etc. All things that we're trying to get away from!

I'll definitely look into re-routing some of the flights--and would even consider using another city (if it's more convenient) as our connecting point...since it seems HK is kind of out of the way for what we have planned. I would hesitate to use BKK as that place as we were just there and it wouldn't be as interesting as visiting someplace different this time. Again, suggestions here would be much appreciated!

Thanks so much for your help!

Hi Bill!

I agree with everyone else about this being too rushed. Personally, I would leave out the bus trip from Luang Prabang and either fly from there to Vientiane, or directly to Hanoi.

I also have to admit a bit of a bias in my recommendations as I live in Hong Kong, and Luang Prabang and Hanoi are 2 of my favorite travel places. I go to LP for at least 2 weeks every Christmas and I have been to Hanoi twice this year for 5 days at a time!

My suggestion would be:

1. Hong Kong 3-4 nights (as you will have jet-lag on the first day). One hotel suggestion is the Jia Boutique Hotel Apartments, designed by Philippe Stark. Not old, but stylish and definitely not like a huge business hotel.(http://www.jiahongkong.com/JIA.html)

2. Fly to Luang Prabang via Bangkok, on Thai Airways TG603 (departing HK at 07:55, arrving Bangkok 09:40) and then either Bangkok Airways PG945 (departing BKK at 12:40, arriving LP at 14:40) or Lao Aviation QV643(departing BKK at 14:15, arriving LP at 16:05). Stay in LP at least 4 nights, preferably more.

3. Fly LP to Hanoi on Lao Aviation, arriving in Hanoi in the early afternoon (flight times vary depending on flight day). Stay in Hanoi for at least 4 nights, plus a couple of nights on a side trip to either Halong Bay or Hoi An as suggested by others.

4. Fly Hanoi to Hong Kong (Cathay Pacific or Vietnam Airlines). You could get an early morning flight that would arrive in Hong Kong in time for you to transit to your return flight to LAX.

Good luck with your planning! I look forward to the next iteration of your itinerary.

Halong Bay was nice this November, on Nov 11-12 anyway. The van ride could be 4 hours but more like 3.5. It is worth it for an overnight trip and even better if you spend two nights there.

Kathie (or any other Vietnam experts),

Maybe you can help clear some confusion for me. I had been led to believe that the north part of Vietnam (Hanoi, etc) was the dryer part in November and the south would be full of rain. But on Lonley Planet, they say the following:

"With a multitude of altitudes and latitudes there's always somewhere that is pleasantly sunny and warm if you're prepared to find it. Temperatures are usually hot and humid, around the low 30°Cs (high 80°Fs), but if you head north and along the coast they cool down to comfortable temperatures towards January. The weather is determined by two monsoons; the winter monsoon comes from the northeast between October and March bringing wet chilly winters to all areas north of Nha Trang, but dry and warm temperatures to the south. From April or May to October, the southwestern monsoon brings warm, humid weather and buckets of rain to the whole country except for those areas sheltered by mountains."

This would lead one to believe that it is the SOUTH instead of the north that is actually the dryer of the two for the time of year we are going (November.) AAGH! I'm more confused than ever.

North? South? Where are we best to bsae the Vietnam portion of our trip out of?

Also, November is the best time of year for us to take a trip like this, but is it not the best time of year to visit Vietnam in general? We really want to go but not if we're going at a non-optimal time.

Thanks again!

Well, I don't plan out neaerly as far out as you do! In fact, we're leaving in 2 weeks and I am just now finalizing my itinerary (we're only doing Vietnam).

To your Sapa question, from al the research I've done, Sapa should be very pleasant weather for you in Nov. You may get fog, but it is not going to be miserably cold. We decided that we wanted to see the area so much, that we are going in January even though we know we will probably have cold and crummy weather. Our primary interest in the area is the colorful local markets, so you may also want to see if you can schedule this portion around a week-end so you can visit Bac Ha or other markets (if this interests you).

Bill, take a look at www.weatherbase.com and check each city you are interested in. VN, because it is a long, thin country, is affected by a number of weather systems. Rather than just thinking about North vs. South, you really need to think of north, central and south. Hanoi will have good weather in November. We had day temps in the upper 70s, cooler nights when we were there in November. November is very wet in central VN, (Hue Hoi An, DaNang) and they have monsoonrains during that time and flooding one out of every three years (that discouraged me from going there in November, and central VN did, indeed have flooding with loss of life the year I went to Hanoi).

I loved Hanoi, and I thought November was an ideal time to visit. The only downside to that time of the year is that Halong Bay may be misty and cool, and Sapa may be cool or downright nasty with rain and wind.

(By the way, I find Lonely Planet's weather info to be somewhere between confusing and misleading.)

It looks a bit rushed to me also but you are hitting the highlights so should be a fun trip. I wasn't too fussed on Vang Vieng (Backpacker Haven/Hell replete with banana pancakes, stoned backpackers watching "Friends" re-runs in cafes) it's ok to break up the ride down to Vientiane. I would personally spend more time in Halong Bay or Luang Prabang.

http://www.travelsinasia.com/Vietnam/Vietnam.htm
http://www.travelsinasia.com/Laos/Laos.htm

November is the beginning of the dry season up north. Take a look at the average monthly precipitation numbers for Hanoi and Haiphong at weatherbase.com

The weather in November in Hanoi was very pleasant, just like the averages would lead you to expect.

Again, in Halong Bay it was not misty and cool. It was warm, a bit cloudy, and some haze. It was warm enough to swim and the water was warm. Definitely good for kayaking.

Average temps of 78/65 in Haiphong in November. Average is only 5 days of rain per month. Average of 2.2 inches of rain in November in Haiphong (versus 25.5 inches in Hue).

Here is some more weather info:
http://weather.yahoo.com/regional/VMXX.html
Sapa is near Lao Cai. Current forecast is for sunny skies and highs around 69 to 72F.

Based on the stats for Haiphong, your average November day in Halong Bay is going to be a high temp in the upper 70s, overnight low in the mid-60s, and a 17% chance of rain.

Okay--after taking all your advice into account (and after a lot of further online research) I'm officially unveiling Itinerary v.2.0 for all to view (and then rip me apart over)

You'll be glad to know there's a lot less jumping around (I'm sure David's folks will be grateful!) and definitely gives us enough time to have a feel for each of the 3 areas we'll be visiting:

Day 1 Depart LAX (via Taipei on EVA)
Day 2 In Transit
Day 3 Arrive Bangkok, Fly to LP (on Bangkok Air)
Day 4 Luang Prabang
Day 5 Luang Prabang
Day 6 Luang Prabang
Day 7 Fly to Hanoi (on Lao Air)
Day 8 Hanoi
Day 9 Hanoi
Day 10 Hanoi
Day 11 Halong Bay (overnight on junk)
Day 12 Halong Bay/Hanoi
Day 13 Fly to Hong Kong (on Vietnam Air)
Day 14 Hong Kong
Day 15 Hong Kong
Day 16 Hong Kong
Day 17 Depart for LAX (via Taipei on EVA)

Hotels:
LP: La Residence (or Maison Souvannaphoum for slightly cheaper)
Hanoi: Sofitel Metropole (or Zephyr as a much cheaper alternative)
HK: Langham Place (or YMCA for slightly cheaper)

Now here's the things on my list that are still presenting unresolved questions...so any advice would be appreciated:

-Flight to BKK: would normally want to use EVA, but the flight gets in at 11:05 AM and the connecting flight on Bangkok to LP leaves at 12:40 PM. That seems really, really tight to me. What do you guys think? Thought of maybe taking the Thai Air flight direct from LAX which gets into BKK at 6 AM (downside there: HUGE layover and flight is much more expensive!) Third option could be EVA's afternoon flight and overnight at the Suvarnabhumi Novotel.

-Read a lot about how it's difficult to get tix on Lao Air. Is that still the case? Even this far out? Can I contact them directly via email or phone and buy the tix that way?

-Vietnam Airlines' website is down until June 2007. Yes, that's right...June! So I'm wondering the best way to go about buying tix with them in the meantime.

-What are the best sites for discount hotel rates in Vietnam, Laos and HK? On our last trip I used sawadee.com solely and loved it...but that doesn't seem like an option for these places.

That's it for now. I'm sure once I lock down all the cities and dates I'll be circling back again to inquire more about day trips, drivers and (my personal favorite) food.

Thanks again all...and have a wonderful New Years!

-Bill

Bill, this is a much better itinerary. I think you'll all enjoy it more!

For intra-asia tickets, I always as Eddie [email protected] (this is the American Express agency in Bangkok). Tell Eddie exactly what you want: cheapest tickets or tickets that are totally changeable without penalty, etc

I agree that the EVA - Bangkok Air connestion is too tight. Take a look at Thai and also look at the cost of overnighting at the airport Novatel to decide which works best for all of you.

Thanks, Kathie! I knew you'd approve

I've emailed Eddie--so we'll see what he says.

And, yes: I'm leaning towards the Thai Air flight as of this moment.

If anyone has suggestions on the best hotel booking sites, I would be grateful!