Flying JFK/FRA in December. Is it worth it to spend a little extra in Economy Class for Singapore Airlines vs. Lufthansa? And how does Delta compare? Thanks-

SQ uses a 747-400 on that route. It has personal video screen, but legroom and seat width are both tight.

LH uses a 747-400 and a 340-600. While LH is starting to install PTV in coach, I doubt you'll get any on those flights. The 346 with 2-4-2 seating may be more comfortable than the 744.

DL is okay too. On a 767 with 2-3-2 seating. But like LH, no personal video screen.

LH and SQ provide free alcoholic drinks. DL provide <b>one</b> free drink at meal time.

In my opinion, none is worth paying more to fly on in coach.

I've flown both LH and Singapore on that route and prefer Lufthansa.

On the return to JFK I prefer Singapore, 1) it is a daytime flight and I don't try to sleep and 2) it departs FRA earlier, meaning I get into JFK about 1-2hrs earlier than the earlisest LH flight.

Comfort, service, etc. I've found no difference.

Eye candy, no comparison.....

Thanks. Now, my last question on the subject before I actually buy the ticket: BUSINESS CLASS Delta vs. Singapore. Singapore is about $1000 more round trip. Is THAT worth it? Is there enough of a difference in comfort and service?

SQ has lie-flat (flat surface, but not horizontal to floor) &quot;Spacebed&quot; on their 747-400. In a very spacious 2-3-2 seating on the maindeck or 2-2 on the upper deck.

It should be significantly more comfortable, with better service, than DL. Whether it's worth $1,000, only you can decide.

Picture of DL:
www.airliners.net/open.file/0255314/L/

Picture of SQ (upper deck):
www.airliners.net/open.file/1219318/L/

Lower deck:
www.airliners.net/open.file/0934813/L/

Thanks, rkkwan. That seals the deal - SQ it is!

I really don't like SQ on the JFK to FRA route for one simple reason.

US Carriers &amp; LH treat that route as a strict overnight flight when business travelers main goal is to get some sleep and arrive fresh.

Meal is served quickly, the shades closed, lights out, dark and quiet cabin until the latest possible moment.

The 2 times I've flown business class on that flight I've gotten less than 1/2 the sleep I normally do on a flight. SQ treated it more like a daytime flight than a must-get-sleep flight.

The meal lingered longer and was noisier, they didn't darken the cabin (many shades open), and the woke everyone up early for breakfast, lights on, etc.

I'm not sure if that is the norm or not. The lie flat seats are very nice, but I much prefer LH (new cabin) these days. Haven't flown DL.

just another 2c.



The 2 times I've flown SQ

That's a valid point by J62. I've also heard of people complaining that by the time they finish the nice dinner, it's 3 hours after departure and half way across the Atlantic.

Well, I didn't buy the ticket yet, and so wait another day or two... Thanks so much.

Sleeping on the way over is important to me - - - that's why I am choosing Business Class in the first place. And I've been reading about the seats on
SQ; it appears many people slide down toward the bottom, which would drive me CRAZY!

If you're paying good money on business, you should investigate on all options. SQ, DL, AA, LH, as well as CO from EWR.

None of these airlines provide horizontal flat bed, so you have to choose from either angled flat (which is more likely to slide) or traditional cradle seats. CO on its 767 in the winter have traditional cradle seats and are pretty wide, for example.

But at the end, it just comes to personal preference. There's no outright winner, though more airlines are moving to the flat option.

Okay, AA doesn't fly JFK-FRA, sorry.

LH uses both the Airbus A340-600 and Boeing 747-400 from JFK and EWR to FRA. All business seats on the A346 are angled lie-flat type, in 2-2-2 seating. Older versions of the 744 have standard cradle seats in 2-3-2, while newer configurations have the lie-flats. The cradle seats don't look that great in pictures I've seen on airliners.net.

Here's a picture of the lie-flat on the A346: www.airliners.net/open.file/0779231/L/

And old-styled seats on their older 744:
www.airliners.net/open.file/0557840/L/

CO uses the 767-400 or -200 on EWR-FRA in the winter. Cradle seats, with 2-1-2 configuration that's wider than Delta's 2-2-2:
www.airliners.net/open.file/0377226/L/

That last picture of CO is on a 767-400, with 35 business class seats. They may also use a 767-200. Identical seats, but only 25 of them.

I don't know how DL or LH serve their dinner, but on CO across the Atlantic, you have a choice of taking it course by course (which may also take 2+ hours), or you can have the &quot;executive&quot; option which have things given to you more or less at the same time. But I guess they'll have to keep the cabin lights on for a while.

But that flight departs 7:20pm, so I think most people don't feel like they have to go to sleep right away.

Also, looking at the schedule, a 777-200 will be put on the EWR-FRA flight. Same service, but the seats are slightly different with a little more recline (176-degree vs 170).

Here's how the seat looks at full recline:
www.airliners.net/open.file/1223267/L/

rkkwan, you are AMAZING. Thank you so much!

All of Lufthansa's long-haul flights have the new business class; the last a/c was reconfigured a few months ago.

I've never flown CO business, but looking at the photos I can see why: doesn't look like a whole lot of room when the seat in front of you is fully reclined! (Not that the recline itself is up to any int'l standard, either).

On LH and most other lines, the business class seat is in a shell, so the position of your seat make no difference to the person behiond you.

Pitch in all these seats are similar. From CO's 55&quot; to SQ's 58&quot; and LH and DL's 60&quot;. Whether there is a shell or not, there's plenty of room.

Main issue is whether you want the seat to be flat. I think there's real benefit to having a flat seat. And I assume if you find yourself sliding down, you can adjust the seat back to a slightly less-than-flat position?

Most airlines have the option of the &quot;express meal&quot; in business class where the food is served all at once rather than in courses for those passengers who would rather sleep or work.

<i>I think there's real benefit to having a flat seat. And I assume if you find yourself sliding down, you can adjust the seat back to a slightly less-than-flat position?</i>

Absolutely correct about the flat (that is, horizontal to the floor) seat being a major benefit compared to the angled seat. I sleep like a baby in BA's flat seat (and I always take a rear-facing seat), but it has taken me time to find a good sleeping position in LH/SQ/IB/TG angled-flat seats.

As rkkwan suggests, adjusting the seat to a less-than-flat position (they call it a 'Z' position) tends to be more comfortable, as it prevents slipping down. On these seats, there are usually 4 or more different buttons that control seat position, so finding the right position can be either fun like an arcade game or maddeningly frustrating, depending on one's mood at the time. (And on the 1st iteration of Thai's seats, it was also a bit deafening -- the motor that moves the seats was very loud, and there was a serious din with everyone in the cabin messing with their seat positions.)

As for pitch, one airline's 58&quot; might not be the same as another's, especially when one offers shell-type seats and another (such as CO or UA) does not. With the shell seats, the seat changes position entirely within its own cocoon, and never intrudes on (changes) the space of the seat immediately behind. With the CO/UA non-shell seats, you do reduce the space of the passenger behind you when you recline, just as you would in economy class.

rizzuto - But when the person in front doesn't recline, you actually get MORE space than in a shell seat, in my understanding. The shell has to allow for the final full-recline position of the seat back.

Pitch is pitch, regardless of seat type. In a shell seat, when you're in a full lie-flat position, your feet are still underneath the head of the person in front of you. No difference between the types.

Okay, let me clarify myself. Rizzuto is correct that if you're not fully reclined and the person in front is, there's indeed less space in the old-school cradle seats on CO and DL than the shell seats.