Kavey

"90% or more of posts on this board are about, for instance; where to see a wild dog; sightings of lions, and elephants, and, etc, etc. ...; and which is the best "camp" to stay at?

Sort of demonstrates the interest people have in the countries of the continent. Which is basically nill, as long as they get those photos."

You miss the point made several times by several people above.

The fact that 90% of posts on this board are about wildlife viewing, camps and similar topics does NOT demonstrate the level of interest people have in a country's people, politics or any other topic.

All it demonstrates is that this is a travel board and as such, most of the conversation revolves around travel.

thit_cho

<<That, I suppose, is what I'm getting at. 90% or more of posts on this board are about, for instance; where to see a wild dog; sightings of lions, and elephants, and, etc, etc. ...; and which is the best "camp" to stay at?>>

Until I read that post, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought you comprehended what we wrote and what you read. After reading your quote, I am unsure.

This is a travel forum, and one would naturally expect substantially all threads to be about travel. Simply because there are few posts on African culture, cuisine, art, literature, sport or politics, to list a few topics that I am, and I would expect others are, interested, should not by itself lead one to conclude that those who participate on this forum are, when it comes to Africa, solely interested in travel. But, I have limited time during my day to visit and fertilize different forums, and I elect not to visit those that focus on African politics, cuisine, sport, or art, among other topics. If its a keen interest to you, perhaps you should spend more time on those forums.

Gritty

afterall--

I kind of know what you're getting at (I think). Most of the posts here are centered around East and Southern Africa, and most of them are about wildlife.

I'd like to see more posts about West Africa. However, there just aren't that many here, and I know of other forums that cover this region in much more detail. I go there instead.

Besides, East and Southern Africa are the hotspots for African tourism, so naturally more people are going to talk about these areas. And, these two regions are going to be hotspots of tourism because there are few places on earth that contain their biodiversity and concentration of large mammals.

It just so happens that there are people (like myself) who have always wanted to see these animals, and will pay to see them in their native environment. Would you go to Las Vegas to see the imitations of the Pyramids or the Eiffel Tower, if you could afford to go to the real places? I'm guessing not.

So, us wildlife folks gather here to talk about where to go and what can bee seen. We have to meet somewhere. My "real-life" peers certainly don't understand why I would want to take an 18-hr. flight just to see a bunch of animals when I could just go to DisneyWorld and see them.

As you've been told, the people on this forum are interested in Africa's people, it is just demonstrated in different ways, at least some of which isn't talked about here.

lisa

In my opinion the elections in Zimbabwe do relate directly to travel. I would love to go there someday but will not go while Mr. Mugabe is in power. Politics and travel are related -- witness China and Tibet (and the Olympics), South Africa under apartheid, and any other number of examples.

HariS

Lisa,

Your reference to the olympics - for the first time, i agree with GW's statement. Politics and sport don't go together. Things should have been thought about prior to allotting the games to the smog infested Beijing. If you notice, some big names are not going to be running the olymipic marathon this time.

ijkh

We will be in Livingstone in May. We were hoping to cross the bridge to Zimbabwe if Mr Mugabe is not in power. It does not look promising but one can hope. I guess we will have to look at the falls from Zambia.

P. S. We would love to do the Devil's Pool trip but I think the water will be too high. Anyone know?

flgirl0817

ijkh,

I'm suppose to be on a tour in May staying in Zimbabwe/Victoria Falls for 2 nights. Now I'm only hoping that the tour company does not cancel the trip.

lisa

Hari -- Interesting...but my larger point is that regardless of one's views on these individual issues, I think it is pretty untenable to argue that politics is unrelated to travel. Some people might argue political issues SHOULD be separate from travel, but it is a fact that politics absolutely do affect peoples' decisions about where and whether to go (witness the post-election rioting in Kenya and how many tour companies cancelled) -- so politics and travel are definitely related whether one likes it or not. To me, saying that politics should not be discussed on a travel forum is like saying that one should not discuss the climate or the exchange rate or any other of the myriad factors that affect travelers' decision-making about where to go, when, and why.

ragsi

For the past couple of months, I have posted numerous questions here AND on Trip Advisor, researched other posters comments (such as canned hunting, Zimbabwe election, lion walking, constellations in the southern sky, african music...endless my research), watched YouTube videos, etc... so that when my husband and I arrive in S. Africa, we will have some knowledge and preparation of the area.

The way I see it, if one doesn't see the world , how do we perceive to understand it? The more cultures I connect with, the greater my touch with humanity. The animals are just a bonus in the S. African trip...jmo

thit_cho

Lisa, I don't think anyone is suggesting that travel and politics are inseparable; rather, I think they are inextricably linked.

But there is an enormous gulf between asking "With so-and-so in power, should I visit Country A?" (or similar questions about putting money into the hands of locals instead of a regime) and asking "What should be done about Zimbabwe, and should Countries A and B do more?"

I think questions in the first category (ie, those that discuss the impact of politics on travel are received will in this forum), while purely political questions (ie, what should be done about Mugabe) can be better answered elsewhere.

And, afterall is attempting to bait people into discussing the second line of questions -- my suggestion was that s/he may get better responses to a purely political question in a political forum.

But, I don't think anyone would disagree that travel and politics are married -- witness those who are not attending the Olympics (be they world leaders or regular visitors), or those who refuse to visit Burma/Myanmar, Iran, Israel, the United States, etc. The bond between travel and politics is strong and unbreakable, but this forum may not be the best place for every question.

Michael

cybor

Personally, I look forward to getting any info. I can about Zimb. from our online African friends, as I'll be traveling there soon.
I'm not discounting, btw, non African views, as I know some of you are more in touch with the happenings there than the rest of us who get 3rd+ hand watered down or sometimes over dramatized media info.

We discuss everything here from paper undies to the state of affairs and how it affects it's people and our travel plans - why force muzzle the stuff that doesn't appeal - move on, change the channel or don't open the offending thread - simple.

thit_cho

I think, cybor, it was afterall's holier-than-thou attitude and criticism that some of us (well, at least I) found off-putting. No one is attempting to muzzle anyone; I was merely suggesting that if afterall is keenly and seriously interested in Zimbabwe politics, there are likely more apt forums. S/he can, of course, present any thought/comment/idea/question, but s/he should realize that her outrage is misdirected -- when you ask about apples in an nectarine forum, you should not be so shocked when not a lot of people comment on apples.

cybor

Hi Michael,
Yes, I understand with good reason where a few of you were going. The whole guilt and finger pointing thing never goes over well.
I don't, however, think that that was the case with all who posted.
Just saying!

dombawera

Thanks for bringing up the topic. Myself (a former Zimbabwean, third generation) and a friend (US citizen) have a booking to Zimbabwe - Vic Falls and Mana Pools for 14 days starting mid-May. So your message is timely to us.

My family (now elderly father) also owns a private game park in Zimbabwe (we were also planning to stay there)- he has actually moved to Harare for the weekend (apparently the place could well be 'invaded' by militias in the next two or three days).

I don't mention the name of the game park here - but the animals will likely be slaughtered. And the few employees, who are also passionate about wildlife) will lose their livelihoods (and hopefully not their lives).

Our trip was planned way back completed by the time we arrived. We had no idea, that the election results would simply be witheld by the person who lost the elections - one wonders what was the point of having an election in the first place.

So our plans (which have taken months to put together) are now on hold. We are exploring different options - perhaps going to Vic Falls only, and then traveling to Botswana or South Africa, and avoiding the rest of Zimbabwe. I guess we are waiting to see how things develop.

It is ironic because we actually confined our trip to Zimbabwe, to provide some income to the people of Zimbabwe - kind of out of a sense of loyalty. It is difficult to complain when one considers the oppression and hardships that ordinary Zimbabweans are experiencing.

From what I hear, local Zimbabweans are at the point where they are determined to take their country back. It has really been pillaged by a group of people, with absolutely no consideration for the ordinary Zimbabwean.

It is a crime, but I have no doubts it will turn around in future. It would be interesting to hear what other people might think.

HariS

Lisa,

Yes, i agree completely. Today, is a global perspective on everything and it's pretty silly to avoid any of the current day issues in a travel forum.

Rgds
Hari

Kavey

Lisa,
I for one am certainly not suggesting for a moment that anyone actively avoid discussion of politics, as it relates to travel, in a travel forum.
And, frankly, it doesn't bother me to see discussions that are wholly political with little or no reference to travel (though it would not surprise me if such discussions were moderated by the site owners as off-topic).
The only thing that bothers me is afterall's suggestion that, because there are not many wholly-political threads on this travel-topic board that this is a reliable indicator of how much interest/ knowledge posters here have in the topic.
I have a huge interest in many things but you would not necessarily know it from my posts here since the discussions I have on those subjects is mostly carried out elsewhere.

afterall

Again, thx for a very interesting discussion.

Dombawera, what can I say? Can I imagine what it must be like to plan a trip like that, and then have to can it all? Not really, cos for you it is not a tourist adventure it is something else altogether.

I don't think you can separate travel and sport, or travel and politics.

I hear what you are all saying about people posting to ask where the wild dogs are, but, hey, really, they are not only interested in the animals. They are following the election in Zimbabwe as well.

You may well be right.

Kavey

It's crazy that the old ****** is still hanging on. Not that it wasn't obvious he'd never give up without a humumngous cheating fight. But sad and crazy nonetheless.

lisa

Kavey -- I agree. It would be like going on a foodie forum and criticizing the members for only caring about food.

I actually think the OP's original question is an interesting one (whether this forum is the most appropriate venue for it is another question).

But the snarky insinuation that forum members only care about watching animals and not about elections is presumptuous, naive, and says more about "afterall" and his or her own narrow-minded assumptions than it does about this community.