spiegelcjs

Well the trip is almost finalized thank goodness but it seems there is always one more question. Taking advice from this forum I asked to have a cost breakdown for the trip broken out by lodges, air fare etc. This is the response "Wilderness still have package rates that are not broken down to me. I only get a lump sum value. Because these rates are also confidential, this is another reason that they do not breakdown the costs."
She assures me we are paying lower than rack rates. Am I being overly detailed,in wanting to know what we are paying for each lodge, or should I just assume that the deal is good? Maybe I should be more trusting. Assuming we stay at the River Club in VF which she has suggested over the Royal LIvingston because everything is included, we will be staying 8 nights in Wilderness properties. Also need opinion of River Club VS Royal LIvingston.
Thanks again. I will never plan another trip without the help of this forum.

Roccco

Some operators choose to do breakdowns while others do not.

Take a look at how I dissected one itinerary by National Geographic Expeditions and replaced it with a much nicer itinerary 3 times in length! (9 nights at $12,500 pp for their itinerary, 28 nights at $12,500 pp for my alternate itinerary). Coming from a consumer advocate background, I enjoy looking for the very best deals but never compromise on the quality of the safari.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34853709

You just have to go with your gut instinct and if you are okay with not having a breakdown then book it.

brandywine

For the Botswana portion of the trip, you can get a good idea what the prices of the camps are from a web site like e-gnu.com. The prices are not yet listed for 2007, but the early June prices are similar to the November prices for 2006, maybe add about 5% for 2007. Then add about $150 or so for each small airplane flight (I don't know about the cost of the flight from Kasane to Livingstone - just add something in). That will give you a ball park figure. Then ask your agent for this portion of the trip cost, from Maun to Livingstone, and have her break out the air cost from JNB to Maun and from Livingstone to JNB. Now you have something to compare.

If you are not satisfied after that, then you can E-mail e-gnu and they will quote you a price. Or ask another US based agent that specializes in Southern Africa for a price quote. Just make sure you give them the exact same itinerary so that you are getting a true comparison. They will be usually be able to get a quote back to you in a couple of days. By the way, all the 5 paw Botswana Wilderness camps are the same price except for Duba Plains (more expensive) and maybe San and Jacks.

I have found that quotes from different agents can vary by as much as 15 percent which can be quite a bit of savings. But make sure you are comfortable with the agent you choose, and satisfied with their service, not just the price.

Clematis1

I would not go with an operator who cannot break down the prices for a custom itinerary that I created with or without their help (that's different from a set itinerary that the operator advertises of course). I have been given Wilderness prices from operators. Brandwine's suggestion is excellent - get one or two other quotes and see if they will give you a breakdown. I wonder why they put you in River Club as well when you asked for Royal Livingston? They say everything is included. See, I prefer the tour operator tell me what it will cost to stay at the River Club, and what price they can get for the Royal Livingston and let me make a choice how much I want to spend. What I would not like is for the operator to get a great price cut due to putting the client in the same company's camps and then not passing any part of this savings to you. And with this statement about how it's packaged rates and not broken down and a lump sum that is confidential... I am not thrilled by that. Definitely get more quotes.

I have not stayed at the River Club but I loved the Royal Livingstone, especially as a first stop for a first trip to Africa.

Pumbavu

I can understand not getting a breakdown. I work as a commercial producer... if I make you a radio commercial I get certain rates from music producers, voice artists, but then there's my own writing, my skills, training and experience to get you the best I can for the budget. You'ree getting the whole package... and if you went to those people individually you would be charged a lot more. But they would want to maintain their percieved price (my suppliers, or in your case the lodges) and wouldn't want me to tell you what price I pay them! They give me a deal based on the business I give them.

However there's nothing to stop you trying to chip away at MY profit!

;-)

spiegelcjs

Am I correct that the lodges pay a commission and then the operator can get whatever the market will bear. I am definitely not looking for the cheapest way to go. I just want to feel that I am getting a fare deal. I believe I am but just wanted a little more information from the tour company. When I read the posts here it appears that there can be several thousand dollars difference between one and another on the exact same trip. I understand overhead etc. factors into this equation, expensive advertising etc. This is a good company but does not spend money on these things. That is why I am questioning the price. I may send out a quick message to a few other operators just to see. The problem is she has put provisional holds on lodges and when they check there may be no avialability. Will this change their ability to give me a quote and will they want to do this. I hate bothering people just for my own satisfaction. I do not feel this is fare

Roccco

spiegelcjs,

Tour operators are paid a set commission by the lodges. The commission amount varies from operator to operator but so does the overhead.

However, this is not to say that all operators charge rack rate or below rack rate. Only by you knowing the rack rates, air/road transfer rates and having a breakdown do you know how much you are paying in comparison to rack rates. Could be less than rack rates but it could very well be full rack rate or even above rack rate.

Wilderness' 2007 rates have been released for at least a couple weeks already.

As far as the provisional holds go, don't worry about that too much...PERHAPS you want to check dates a week beforehand or a week afterward? Or PERHAPS you may have an interested couple that may be joining you that you need to check pricing for???

Good luck with your continued planning.

jasher

Hello Spiegel,

While it's certainly ideal to get a breakdown of accommdation, transfers, etc, your itinerary is with Wilderness and Wilderness is a special case. Getting a breakdown for a Wilderness trip was possible up until a few years ago, when Wilderness bought Sefofane and began 'bundling' their camps and transfers and presenting agents with a single 'package' quote. Your agent is right in saying that it isn't possible to get a breakdown from them for your current trip.

It is certainly possible to do a 'guesstimate' using rack rates obtained online and light air transfer prices from a site like Linyanti Explorations (www.linyanti.com). Your trip will almost certainly come out under rack rate as the company you are working with has very good pricing. Hopefully this will set your mind at ease about whether you are getting a good deal and allow you to go back to enjoying your trip planning!

Cheers,
Julian

spiegelcjs

Julian. Thank you so much. You have really put my mind at ease. I am finishing off the arrangements on Monday and sending off my check for the deposit. Now that the decisions have been made what am I going to research for the next 10 months?

sag1221

Hi - My sister and I were at the River Club in mid June, and absolutely loved it. Beautiful place, very accomodating staff, fabulous open rooms. (Meaning no screens at all - totally open to the Zambezi River. They have great mosquito netting over the beds and pull down shades on some of the open areas at night, and we had no "visitors.&quot The food was delicious and we loved being able to explore the grounds. The pool is gorgeous too--if you've seen the brouchure photo I'm sure you know this. There are tons of things to do, and they happily arrange to take you where needed (see end of reply.) The RC has a very atmospheric old British Colonial feeling.

Re the Royal Livingstone, we stopped there on an errand, and while it was very posh and located much closer to Victoria Falls it was very much the big luxury chain type of hotel. Very commercial, lots of hustle and bustle, and a lower-priced sister hotel nearby. It really does not have the charm of the River Club. Plus there was a small fenced area nearly for faux game viewing. Kind of like a tiny zoo. I found this sort of tacky.

Do yourself a favor and go to the RC. They have lovely evening river cruises for sundowners (with a remarkable stone stairway from the grounds down to the boat landing.) They can arrange to take you to the Falls for a private walking tour (it's only about a 20 minute drive.) You could also go on a drive through the nearby game park, where they have rhino. Other things to do include ultralight flights over the Falls (a friend did this and the pictures made us wish we had), bungee jumping if you are of a mind (or lack thereof) to partake, elephant back safaris (we did this and it was a lot of fun), shopping at the big market at the entrance to Victoria Falls, and lots more. The River Club also has an affiliation with a nearby native village, and offers guests a chance to visit and interact with students, etc. We didn't do this, but understand it's a great experience. Or you could make a case for just lolling about the RC and enjoying the pool, spa, croquet court and very comfy rooms!

Have I pushed you to the River Club? I hope so!

spiegelcjs

sag1221
Great Information. How long were you there? How long is the elephant back ride. For $150.00 US it should be several hours. Bsides what the tour operator said and I trust her, and your response, I think you have convinced us. My only real concern was that ALL of our friends who have been to VF have stayed at the Royal Livingston and just raved about it.

sag1221

Hi Spiegel - We had two nights at the RC.We didn't arrive until after lunchtime on the first day (from the Delta), though the staff had no problem serving us a delightful lunch under a tree on the lawn. That day we unpacked, went on the evening cruise and had dinner. The next day was jam-packed - elephant safari first thing, then a drive through the game park, then back for lunch/freshening. Then we went to Victoria Falls for a tour (got very wet!!) and checked out the market. It was a full day. The last day we had time for a tour of Livingstone (um, not the highlight of our trip) and then to the airport. So if I had it to do over I'd probably spend an extra day at the RC and do a few more things. I regret not visiting the village.

The Royal Livingstone would definitely suit some people more than the RC. It seemed to be of a very high standard. But I have to think the River Club provides a far more unique experience. Of course, you don't have a view of the Falls - but all of the cottages face the Zambezi, so there is a a gorgeous water view. At the beginning of our trip we met a just-married couple from London who had stayed at the River Club, and they were raving about it.

The specifics on the elephant back safari -- it's a bit over an hour, maybe 1 1/2 hours, actually riding the elephant. Since you go astride (they do have one "saddle" that isn't astride) I'm not sure you'd want to be up there for a lot longer! We saw various animals while riding, and really enjoyed the experience and scenery. When you get back to camp there's a photo op sitting on your elephant's leg (they have the elephants lay down) while you feed him/her. When they start pushing you with their massive heads, it's not like having your best pal Labrador head butt you! Afterwards you're given a buffet breakfast (very ordinary, but filling) and shown a video of the ride. The latter is pricy and we didn't buy one, but it's available for sale.

We really felt that the experience was a highlight of the non-game viewing part of the trip, and highly recommend it. When building our vacation we worried that it might be a little hokey, but our planner had said that it was defintely worth doing - and we're very happy we took his advice. We couldn't afford to stay at Abu, so this was our consolation elephant experience!

All of our camps were Wilderness - Jack's, Chitabe Trails, Little Vumbura, Duma Tau and the River Club - and we were thrilled with every aspect of our trip. My sister is still having severe Africa withdrawal pangs, and I can only hope that we will be able to return some day.

epgnyc

Hi, I'm the sister suffering from severe Africa withdrawal mentioned above. I fully second my sister's enthusiastic recommendation of the River Club. It is a very, very special place and is not to be missed. Our thatched cottage was beautiful and unique -- from its open front wall overlooking the great Zambezi River to its wonderful bathroom with its gorgeous hand-painted tiles and its river-view, claw-footed tub. Our chalet was more like a suite, with a large sitting area and two separate sleeping areas (ask for Litunga -- it's the most private of their accommodations). The owner, Peter Jones, is extremely knowledgeable about Africa and charming to boot. It was a treat talking to him. My sister mentions the food, but in a trip full of really delicious meals (and this from someone who lives in New York City where great food abounds and who considers herself highly food critical), it was outstanding. I especially loved eating lunch out on the grass under the trees next to the croquet lawn -- entrancing and very colonial. I should also mention the presence on the grounds of a tent-like structure, perched atop the high river bank. We were so busy during our two days at the RC that it wasn't until late in our stay that I thought to ask what it was and found out the white-tented pavillion was where they gave massages. How heavenly -- I wish we'd had time to indulge! The Royal Livingstone is a lovely 5-star hotel but its luxury is generic....something the RC is definitely not!