Tom,

Having read your entry in that other thread, I would like to ask you 5 questions:

Which extra info (not available on official websites (like f.e. WS, Mala Mala,...) + travel forums/books on safari destinations) can a TA add by helping you choosing the right camps for your safari?

Are you happy to pay f.e. 30% commission to a TA for your safari or would you prefer to book directly at prices lower than the official rack rate if they allowed you to do so?

What makes you think that if a client can afford a luxurious lodge but is happy with more modest accomodation, the travel agent will not try to push him to the more expensive option?

Which factors determine your choice of camps on safari?

Why would you trust the advice of a TA and be suspicious on the advice of an experienced safari goer (who you don't know personally) on a travel forum?

If you have time to answer my questions, I will be more happy to read them and maybe some Fodorites can learn from it.

Cheers,

Johan

I'm not Tom but my comment relates to the questions.

For some places such as Phinda or Mala Mala, the cost is the same going through an agent or going direct. I checked. In that case, a more local agent seems logical, especially if they take care of the two places for you. Less phone calls, emails, coordinations. I did that for a Phinda/Mala Mala trip.

One more comment before Tom hopefully jumps in. In response to your second point, I would be happy to book direct to save 30%, even less than 30%! Absolutely.

Ok, Tom, take it away.

I'm not Tom either, but most lodges will not give you a 30% discount because you self book. They would be undercutting their travel agent base which is their life blood. The travel agents would not want to do business with a lodge that sells rooms cheaper then they can get them.

Mike

I think that atravelynn & mytmoss are correct about lodges being unwilling to sell at less than rack rate because they don't want to undercut the agents that sell them (biting the hand that feeds them...). I have tried to get lower rates direct but have mostly failed. Agents, however, can offer reductions off the rack rate if they themselves are willing to accept a lower net price. Either way, it can't hurt to try asking for a reduction whether you are booking direct or through an agent... You may not get it..., but you just might...!

Well, I am Tom. How do I know? Because I'm wearing his underwear!!! I saw your questions Johan this morning (California time) but been busy all day outside on a house project. Trying to finish it up before rain hits later tonight. I will be working on my answers during commercial breaks of the Olympics. They will be worth waiting for .
And of course one and all most welcome to add their 2 cents

regards - tom

Tom,

I am eagerly awaiting your answers.

Others are free to join in if they can add some valuable info.

My second question was not to hear if it's possible to book at tour operator rates but to hear if you are happy with the current selective distribution model in which this kind of commissions are earned by a TA selling safaris.

Cheers,

Johan

Ok, valid questions.
1) What extra info can a TA add?
I have met and talked face-to-face with my TA several times. He has my picture/video DVDs from all of my safaris. He know how important photography is to me. He knows that I am fussy about certain things and if not satisfied he will hear about it. In other words, he knows what I expect of him and my safaris. And he tries to see that my expectations are met. It is his -personal knowledge of me- that makes him valuable to me.

Regarding information from other safariits on this forum, and the internet. Yes indeed, their input is very valuable to me – but only after I get to know them, what their safari experience has been, expectations are, and read their replies for a good while, maybe a year.


2) Are you happy to pay f.e. 30% commission to a TA for your safari?
At this point in time of my safari (on) going plans I would rather have the 30% discount. However, if you had said a 10% discount, I would say yes, would be happy. My TA becomes somewhat less valuable to me as my experience and knowledge increases. However, he still helps on every safari, e.g. last year I needed a charter flight between camps. I assumed that ChiliPepper charter was still in operation. Because they still had a web site. He informed me that true but no, they had sold out flight operations to GenAir and my charter would have to be GenAir. He also got me into a camp when it appeared to me that there was no availability for the days I wanted. Also, last safari (Sep 2009) the SA Rand was back down in exchange in August (7.6) but he had purchased Rand earlier in the year and gave me 8.6 exchange when I paid for the camps in August. Saved me a few hundred $$$. (Look up last years exchange rate for the Rand, monthly, very interesting). Hmmm, maybe he was worth even more than 30% last year

Also two other very important services from him, related to question 1.
a) When I investigate availability and rates of camps on the internet they typically state that my reservation is not valid until I make a deposit. Usually substantial $$$ deposit. And with more due well ahead of my safari. My TA does not work that way with me. On making the camp reservations he asks for no deposit. And then a month before I go, I pay up all. Prefer doing it this way and that is worth significant money (his commission) to me.
b) He has “clout” that I don’t have. Safari camps will listen to him, but they may very well not to me. He has helped me a couple times make things right when I was getting nowhere.

As for -not- knowing what the camp rack rate is (thus the TA can increase/discount it), I have been to 10 different camps and each had published internet rates and that which I paid. I understand that some camps do not publish rates and this makes me unhappy and discourages me.

One more thing about commission or price mark-up. It is a fact of commerce, business, life. Everything we purchase has a mark-up. Some of it like in retail sales of everyday items you would be surprised at the amount of mark-up. 40% is common. Jewelry over 100%. Clothing 40-100% unless designer fancy then xxx%. What is the markup on a cup of coffee?? Hopefully competition keeps it under control.


3) What makes me think a TA will not push a more expensive camp?
Not surprising, expected. Doesn’t most any sales person attempt, or at least suggest, to sell the higher priced product or service? I decide the value of the choices and what my money is worth. Now if the sales person -lies- , then that is another thing entirely.

4) Which factors determine your choice of camps on safari?
Well, guess first would have to be cost. To a degree. Not to the every single dollar. But if a camp is twice the price, I want to know if it will be worth that much extra cost.

After cost it would be the game drive experience. By “game drive experience” I mean it all. The vehicle, the guide/ranger, communication with the guide, the time in field, the photographic opportunities. The little glass of sherry when returning to camp

Next would be the camp itself. My room, food, staff service, common facilities.


5) Why would you trust the advice of a TA and be suspicious on the advice of an experienced safari goer (who you don't know personally) on a travel forum?
I don’t. I can’t accept/trust the advice of anyone, including a TA or web person, until I have known them for a while. Know what they value, expect and like. Also, please see my answers above to questions 1 and 2.

Whew, enough, so, I’d be interested in what you think of my answers, Johan. And anyone else. I always welcome the opportunity to clarify and learn.

regards – tom
ps - Johan, do you think the Association for TAs would pay me for their using my above testimonial and lyrical endorsement of TAs?

Hi Tom,

Question regarding the air charter example of yours? If you had emailed the lodge or operator in question regarding the various charter/flight options do you think you may have gotten the answer? particularly, as you seem to travel mostly to your own personal destinations of desired personal choice? I'm guessing you have a good enough rapport to ask some questions and expect an answer?

If you were to deposit a portion of the amount for your booking, but, yet have a lower overall Quote/bill for your trip would it be worth it in your opinion?

Your points regarding your TA in point 1 - wrt photography ..... do you suggest that he helps you in picking the appropriate camp as he knows what you look for? in which case I'm guessing your TA has been there personally and has enough knowledge of the experience. I do read your reports and posts and you do state that you wish to stay at the lodge/camp for longer than the atypical duration. Correct? - so, does your TA do the same to experience this aspect of your desire. Often, a lot can easily be over-looked in a short stay. Some of this flares out in the open when you are there a bit longer ....... "rough around the edges" as the saying goes.

Lastly, your point on the lack of a "published rate" you say you are unhappy or unwilling to deal with this? I think I've read some prior posts of yours where you state that while shopping around you were directed to deal with a specific agent as allocated by the Operator. If I've read your post correctly - how do you feel about this?

Your point 4 - wouldn't they all be inter-related? Cost along with game drive experience etc etc.,?

Regards,
Hari

Tom,

Thanks for your answers.

1) You stated the added value for a travel agent in all his aspects. I can assume if you build up a good relationship with him you get preferential treatment. I have paid only once a significant deposit in all my travels and for the rest I also handed over the entire sum a month before departure. But that won't be a decisive criterium for me if I was able to get a much better rate somewhere else which compensated not to have to pay a deposit.

I agree that a TA can be helpful for planning the intra-African logistical aspect of a safari especially if you are visiting several countries and camps owned by different companies.

My question was actually which info do you get from a TA that makes you decide to go to camp X (let's say f.e. King's camp) and isn't being found on the web or in books.

Let's say that photography is important for you, I would think your TA would advice you to book a private vehicle and go to camps where you can stick with a sighting and rather go once every two years than once a year if cost is a restraining factor. Until now, you haven't done so I think ... Anyway that would be my advice as an experienced traveller.

2) 1O% would be far more acceptable than 30% as I don't think the service a TA gives is worth that. Imagine if you go on a 20.OOO USD trip (with 2 people) and you are paying 6.000 USD only for commissions. It becomes even more ridiculous in the 2 following cases:

a) if you keep returning to the same camps over and over again ...
b) if they put you onto a fixed departure safari trip ...

The main problem in the travel industry is that a lot of the players involved are reluctant to split up the costs, which makes it more difficult for clients to make a final decision.
There have been some attempts by a few but there is still a long way to go ...

As I am very familiar with the Botswana, I seldom come across people who are doing a customised trip. Most of them are just doing a circuit (f.e. Lebala/Kwara/Tau pan or Chitabe/Kwetsani/Savuti). So easy money to put such a trip together.


3) For that reason, I would strongely advice people to do some research themselves and let their itineraries critiqued by others before making any payment to a TA.

I often met people on safari that relied solely on a TA and told me, if they had this info (f.e. alternative camps) beforehand they would have made completely different choices.

As in every sale (if that kind of money is involved) I would assume you wouldn't rely on only one source: the travel agent.

4) I can agree that most people have the same kind of factors (in that particular order) to consider.


5) It's important to clearly state (on forums and travel agents) what you are looking for (all aspects) on this particular kind of trip.

In case you don't trust anyone, it's probably better to come up with an itinerary yourself and just ask for a quote and get along with it.

Agents are not giving their clients valuable inside info and all the other info is practically available on the web.

I would trust the advice of an experienced traveller more as he doesn't have any kickbacks from his advice.

Regards,

Johan

PS - you should ask them to sell you a safari at net rate for a favourable testimonial.

I find the commission paid to TA's deplorable, to try and compare it to normal selling is ludicrous. When you go to a shop they have allready bought and paid for the articles you may wish to buy, they have a massive investment in stock which is funded from their funds. How many travel agents buy holidays on the off chance that they can sell them at a 40% mark up.
There are few if any TA's operating in the safari business that know anything, a two day (at most) visit every other year can hardly give you an in depth knowledge.
The simple fact is that they promote the camps that give them the highest kick backs, that's why so few recommend cheap lodges even if they are great(OK no copper baths!.

To add to Surkamp's post. Ofcourse, you can't compare safaris to what you buy in a store - be it a Harrods, Neimen Marcus or the low end China-made stuff from Wallmart.

One thing, there's far more competition for all of the stuff that's manufactured. All the big brands do have high mark ups. Most shipments are made on a Letter of Credit basis. So, there is coverage.

My 2 cents ...and a half...

1) About TA's

People should realize that any sales person, ANY, whether it is a box-shover behind the counter of Wall-Mart or a TA selling safaris, will most certainly advise you to buy the product which gives him the most net profit.

He will only deviate from this way of working when he senses that he cannot sell what he would like to sell. But if you give him parameters to work with he will still try to squeeze as much profit out of it as possible. Examples:
- Give him a budget and he'll try to go above it, probably while giving you very good reason for doing so.
- Make him understand that you know your stuff and he will still try to find that void in your knowledge, which he can exploit to change your mind, or at least to make you spend more than you intended.

The above perhaps makes you think that I do not think highly of sales people. Well you're wrong. I'm half a sales person myself, actually. I'm just telling you all this because it's the truth. And you shouldn't blame sales for doing what they do. If they wouldn't do it this way, their boss would fire them and hire someone else without blinking an eye.

A sales person is NOT there to help you, end of story. You're a sucker if you think this. The right way to treat a sales person is:
1) to give him as much parameters as possible
2) to not deviate from those parameters
3) to confront him with as much knowledge as possible

And sorry but the argument "liking your sales person because he knows you" is rather irrelevant. That is to say; your bond with your TA will always be a professional one, even though he might make you feel otherwise.

So when Mr X says "I like my TA because he knows me" it just means that Mr X feels he got his money worth from his sales. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not mean any other person will feel the same way when he buys the same product from the very same sales at the same price.

Actually, it could very well be that Mr X is easily persuadable and/or wealthy enough to not "feel" the price increase. There might be a zillion reasons. Also, don't forget; every person will defend his purchase afterward. It's a psychological thing; we have to feel good about our own decisions.


2) About how things run in the safari business.

The market is evolving constantly. Like sales through internet; ten years ago most people here would not even THINK about buying something off the net. And certainly not pay huge amounts of money to someone at the other side of the world.

But these days, people do. More and more. Even in the mass-tourism industry: the other day there was this commercial on the radio advising everyone "...to book your holiday online. Why pay a person in an office? He has no added value. Book on our website and the price is cheaper". (actually, for pre-made mass-tourism itineraries like beach holidays this is actually very true)

With this in mind, it is logical that all TA's feel this pressure. And there's a few ways in which they can react:
- they can specialize, and stick to one type of travel. Eco-travel and safari-travel are typical examples.
- They may try to protect their market by mass-buying the product, if they're big enough to do so. This way they can set the price, and can make the hotel-owners believe that they are needed. Or at least they make these owners see that for them it is easier to just sell it all off to them instead of looking for their own customers.
- they may compensate their losses by taking a bigger uplift.

What we see in the safari-market is often a combination of the above. But these strategies are being questioned as well:
- People start to wonder whether an uplift of (eg) 30% is "normal".
- Information gets easier and easier to find, and the reservations that everyone has towards are dissapearing like snow in the sun. As a result, lodge owners get more and more requests for direct bookings.

I don't know what the outcome will be. These are interesting times though.

One thing is for sure; one can never expect to "win back" the total commission of the TA by booking directly. After all, the lodge owner sold his room to the TA at a lower price than he would have liked, so...

Ciao,

J.

The lodges obviously think the commissions they pay to travel agents are worth the value they pay, otherwise the practice would stop.

A good travel agent will take into consideration the travelers wishes as to what they want to see and do and their budget. Based on that agents experience, they should try to give the traveler the best value and not sell the highest priced lodges.

If you do your research and find your agent is only pushing the most expensive places for no reason, find another agent. There are a lot of fine ones to choose from. My first trips utilized travel agents and I found them to be very valuable. Now I do not use them, but if I needed to use them for help and advice, I would not hesitate.

Mike

Woops. Somewhere at the end of my post it should read: "The reservations that everyone has towards BUYING ONLINE are disappearing like snow in the sun."

Just a quick insert of my opinion regarding travel agent commissions. This is a topic that pops up all of the time and will never be resolved. 30% seems a bit high and not realistic to me, but I wouldn't know first hand what their commissions are. What I do know is that lodges and camps have to spend more time servicing customers for sales related activities, so one should not expect a discount because the lodges and camps are essentially paying themselves the commission. Whatever path you take, you are using the time and resources from somebody, whether it is your travel agent or the camp. Those customers that are very well educated are in the minority. It is my experience that most people have numerous questions and hesitations about booking and need to spend some time getting the relationship going. It takes time and that time is worth something.

<i>"Those customers that are very well educated are in the minority. It is my experience that most people have numerous questions and hesitations about booking and need to spend some time getting the relationship going. It takes time and that time is worth something."</i>

As the minority, I want to capitalize on the time and effort I've put into educating myself and translate that into savings. I don't want to subsidize others (by paying higher costs) who have endless questions about thread counts in sheets, cell phone coverage zones, accessibility of ice, Diet Coke, or high protein diets.

On the other hand, a little self education can generate even more questions about special activities, off-the-beaten-path accommodations, etc. On that one, I'm guilty and have referred to interactions with one small provider as "my assault on his in-box."

The above discussion on travel agents can be generalized to sales in general and many of us have been on both sides of the sales equation. And I've seen the tremendous impact of technology on squeezing profit margins, when on the sales end.

It's all haggling at the bazaar, whether in the marketplace, the corporate boardroom, or online.

A few (quick?) answers to other questions to me.

HariS - Good point about asking the camp for advice on getting to them. Advice I have given other posters!!! And it is likely I think that the camp would even make the reservations for you. This may work fine for a camp that knows me but a new camp may just pass me off. This happened to me once in fact trying to ask questions of the MalaMala reservations office (a few years ago).

My TA was born and raised in South Africa (he is German by decent). He goes back to SA at least once a year, stays mostly at camps he has been to before but also checks out new camps.

Yes, in shopping around, specifically Wilderness Safaris, they do not publish rates. I had heard that rates vary between Wilderness agents by 15%. But when I tried to correspond with different agents they would not allow it, I was assigned one agent, period. This turned me from to dealing with Wilderness camps. You go often to Botswana, do you go to Wilderness camps? If so, your experience working with them similar to mine?

Point 4, cost, game drives, guide, accommodations, etc - yes inter-related. But not of equal importance to me. For example I don't care at all about their wine cellar, while it may excite other guests.

Skimmer2 - Yes my TA has recommended to me specific camps he thinks I would like and specific camps he thinks I would not like. This I would not know from the camp's web site only.

Private vehicle for photography is ideal. It is a matter of choices and value. And the serendipity of game viewing. A private vehicle doesn't matter that much if the weather is poor, raining. Or if the resident lion pride lost their cubs the month before, or, they have moved off into another reserve. Good game viewing involves a lot time. Ask any of the big name nature cinema photographers. I have seen first hand, (Maasi Mara Big Cat Diary) and you too, them waiting in vehicles for something to happen. They can wait months. Yes, by going every other year I could put the savings toward a private vehicle. But then I have cut the time on game drives in half. Good trade off?? So far, I don't think so. Rather have the time "in the field". But when (not if) I win the lottery I will be doing both

You trust experienced travelers more than TA for advice. Because there is no kick back involved. Again, I trust neither one up front. Not until I know a lot about them. I have to evaluate what they think is important and valuable to them with the same for me. Sorta like, seeing a new movie. Whose opinion do you trust more about a new movie? A stranger on the street who has seem many many movies, or, a good friend who has seen many movies and you know what kind of movies they like? (Or a professional movie reviewer?)

regards - tom

I am starting my safari now but will post more comments upon my return end of March.

Cheers,

Johan

So, what have we learned thus far that will help me get more bang for my safari bucks???

Well, there's ..... uhh, and .....

Here's one suggestion - check into multi night discounts. Such as andbeyond's stay four nights 25% off deal in Sabi Sand-
http://www.andbeyondafrica.com/luxur...lodge_specials
In fact you can combine any andbeyond SA camps for that deal. 25% I said, that is a significant discount. Other such discounts widely available for other camps.

Another idea that has always intrigued me is just to go to the country, say JNB or Maun and call around the camps for immediate availability. I've heard hints that this works with really big discounts. Would like to know more. I have the time, could blow a few days doing such, if the results came good.

Any others??

regards - tom

"Yes, in shopping around, specifically Wilderness Safaris, they do not publish rates. I had heard that rates vary between Wilderness agents by 15%. But when I tried to correspond with different agents they would not allow it, I was assigned one agent, period. This turned me from to dealing with Wilderness camps. You go often to Botswana, do you go to Wilderness camps? If so, your experience working with them similar to mine?

Point 4, cost, game drives, guide, accommodations, etc - yes inter-related. But not of equal importance to me. For example I don't care at all about their wine cellar, while it may excite other guests." Cary999

During my first safari to Botswana, I was actually sent to Kings Pool instead of DT/Savute. Ofcourse, I didn't know any better at that time. I was also not on travel forums at that time so didn't have anyone to refer the camps to. I still had a good trip, although the highlight of the entire trip was a drive all the way to the savute channel to see the 3 cheetah boys (Blood brothers). Which is actually around Duma Tau etc etc.,

I have been to Wilderness - but, not really interested in returning as the quality of my safari is better elsewhere (my personal preference/choice) ..... also, I'd rather utilize the services of a tracker instead of say, the wine cellar or a copper bath as is available at other locations. Again, personal choice that you allude to in point 4.

Regards
Hari