pixelpower

Mystypopper,

I agree about overexposed places re. Kenya's Masai Mara, and also believe in low volume / high quality tourism.

But in Botswana, this eco-hoola is used as an excuse for the high prices, which is an outright lie.

HariS

I don't think the digital safari trips would be a good solution here. Atleast, it won't be my cup of tea. IMHO, it's better value for money to invest in a private vehicle. For example., My guide on safari in Botswana (with whom I have spent over 75 days on safari) knows enough and more about all the essential components of a photographic safari. I.e., the Concession, the game movements, my interests, photography including light/angles etc etc., we also have a tracker with us at all times!

Besides, I don't think camp-hopping 3 nights in each camp is worth the expense.

HariS

Hi again Jochen,

I don't know if the Sabi is a good comparison to Bots. Simply because of the volume of visitors in a particular concession. Some game sightings could be limited by time limits .......... not ideal to many!

spassvogel

Mistipooer

You are right in view to the MM but you are wrong in view to the pricing.

Governor's Il Moran is at more than 700US$pppd right now.
There is hardly a high-end camp in the Mara which you can get at peak season for under 500$pppd and then you have to pay the reserve fee which is 60pppd not to mention if you want to visit one of the conservancies which ask for another at least 40.

Regarding Craig being not to other camps except WS: Do you state that clearly so that the client knows about your expertise regarding WS (bias) but the lack of such regarding all other camps?

When asking a Safari consultant I expect to get his/her own expertise. Therefore I am willingly paying more than via the net.
If that experience is lacking I can equally book via the net/catalog.

There were some remarks that WS one time will change business plan by accepting direct bookings making it more reasonable for customers.
If that's going to be the case then I would expect all TA to not sell WS anymore.

I think nobody who is in his right mind would expect a operator selling its camp beds under RSP starting a competition towards its own agents.


BTW Craig - I assume as a TA you have to sign/agree lengthy contracts which request you to comply with "their" rules. On the other hand do these operators assure the TA that they don't sell (if they sell directly like andBeyond) below RSP?

Off topic: And how does a TA make sure the deposit and final payment to the operator will be safe for a particular safari it has been paid for - in case the operator goes bankrupt (camp closed) before the client arrives?
Any legally binding paragraph? Of course that doesn't help if the client is on his/her way............
How is your trouble shooting in such a case?

Thanks for your statement.

SV

spassvogel

Mysty
"Kenya in particular is now seeing the establishment of more and more concession areas adjacent to the parks (like Botswana) which means that one can have that same game experience but with out the 12 minibusses with screeching tourists hanging out the top..."

In Kenya if staying in one of the concessions is not at all that great in times of a drought like it is right now.
Then the Massai insist on getting their cattle into the concession - even into the reserves - or rather don't get them out. They even put up straw man in typical reddish Massai outfits to scare the wildlife away.

To me the Kenya concession system is very disputable - from a wildlife point of view. I see it solely as a Massai money printing machine. Plus these concessions are former pastoral (and some still are partly) areas where wildlife was absent for amyn years and has to come back slowly and some of them are by far not a guaratee for great sightings.

Besides the fact what these folks do with the 40+$pppd except buying more and more cattle..........

SV.

skimmer

SV,

Of course WS is not going to compete with its own TA's. It's their way to control the pricing (the highly selective distribution channel is the key factor here).

And your question about their mutual agreenment on selling below RPS is a rhetoric one ... but it's nice to be mentioned here.


I have seen other agents here selling different products (if you look at their website) but here they only talked about WS. Is there any coincidence here???

It would be interesting to know what the composition is of the price of a permanent camp in the delta?

(costs (variable + fixed + tax), TA's commission, profit for the shareholder, money putting back into conservation). Only the variable part of the cost (f.e. better payment for local staff) and higher input into conservation would in my eyes justify higher prices from the perspective,mentioned by mistypopper.

Cheers,

Johan

spassvogel

I read somewhere here on the Forum that a camp night doesn't effect more cost than between 50 and 100US/bed - running cost.
That seems a bit on the low side if you ask me.
Also I don't know how many sold nights that asks for? Occupation on average?

And for certain it's not just WS.
Andbeyond, OE, D+D, K+D - they are all swimming in that stream exploiting the willingness of people to pay that much.

I would estimate the commission a TA gets is between 20 and 30 %/camp night not the flights, depending on volume.
Therefore I would expect a TA to consult honestly and not towards one company. I also expect ma TA to give me first-hand knowledge on area, wildlife, service, vehicles etc etc.
That percentage can only be justified when the expertise is thoroughly based on own experiences.
Therefore I rather frequent a travel consultant who charges a service fee - so commission is not a topic at all. I think that guarantees he/she is solely interested to get me a camp which serves my interests - and not hi/hers means focused on to %/commission.

Regarding operational cost, fixed coast etc.

When I read some of the tipping advises here on the forum I cannot other than thinking these guides/trackers don't get paid by the camp owner/operator but depending on tips for earning a living.
If that's the case then the whole safari business must be considered unethical.

I am not so much interested in their yield. But I am keen on learning about their % of the revenue which goes back into conservation and also which kind of conservation.

There is a camp in Kenya for example which always asks for donations towards its school, nurses, equipment for collaring their lions, monitoring devises for other wildlife, radios for trackers etc etc etc etc.

But one has to take into consideration that the camp owner lives in the concession, has got 4 kids who need schooling and must be interested in keeping family and camp staff healthy without risking them being taken to Nairobi for minor treatments and therefore being out of camp for days.
Now, is that conservation and/or village support?

Secondly IF a camp owner/concession holder asks for support of all that incl. taking care of his assets, the wildlife, what is the 600/700US$pppd rate for? Any saving account in Switzerland or UK?

Something is going massively wrong in the safari world.

SV

lbj2

Mistypopper,

Ofcourse you a not going to meet a 'rich' lodge owner. Why would you declare your wealth when selling a highly profitable product? I think too many people believe the myths of the 'costs' involved. Often used to justify higher pricing. Concession costs are far lower than many are lead to believe.

There was an interesting article in Africa Geographic back in 2005/6 that is quite revealing about the profitability of the industry. It compared the incomes and distributions to the community of photographic and hunting safaris.

The increases reflected the bubble seen across the world in sections of the economy, so you can not really blame them when demand was high. It was not just limited to Botswana though.


Here is an example from Zambia (found on Safaritalk)

Shumba Camp, Kafue NP, simple bush camp, 2005:


rates US$220 per single person per night with all activities. Top guide with over twenty years experience of the area.

Shumba Camp, Kafue NP, rebuilt as WS 5-paw camp, 2006:

about US$600pppns. Imported guide from SA with 0 years experience in the area.

There wasn't a new lease of the concession. The old owners just got tired of running the camp and made a deal with WS.

The proliferation of high end, high cost lodges across Africa is certainly not a result of philanthropy.

I fully support high cost/low impact, though there is a limit to how much you can squeesh from the market.

Talking of vehicle densities in the Mara, I enquired about booking a safari for September. Despite being the height of the migration, there were plenty of vacancies. So the fall in global travel makes the Mara (cheaper) pricing more attractive.

skimmer

Russell,

I visited Shumba in 2005 when Busanga trails was still operating but I wouldn't consider to go there now ...

SV,

You are right ... something is wrong in the safari industry but I am glad we have this discussion here so both sides can give their opinion on it.

Cheers,

Johan

mistypopper

It's so hard to benchmark what is a 'reasonable' price... I've never been on that side of the business (ie: owned a lodge) so have no idea on what the actual running costs are!

The costings raised around Shumba pre and post the WS lease are interesting - is their anyone who can shed more light (that isn't hearsay) on that as it may clear up the conversations around the profitability etc of these lodges?

ibj2 - regarding meeting rich lodge owners ... I will go have a look for the Africa Geographic article Thank you for the reference.

Spaasvogel - regarding this statement: Regarding Craig being not to other camps except WS: Do you state that clearly so that the client knows about your expertise regarding WS (bias) but the lack of such regarding all other camps?

You raise an interesting (hot) point with the above statement regarding transparency and the philosophical question of what you don't know can't hurt you... I do believe that WS delivers a great experience and as such am not really fussed if a Travel agent (Craig in this example but I am sure there are many more ) is biased in selling them due to that being were his expertise is - it's a good product and they do consistently deliver - there are much worse evils.

Regarding the price of the likes of Il Moran / Crater Lodge / Singita Gruneti / Mombo / Kings Pool etc - maybe it is a case of economics & demand but the next year or so should be extremely interesting and maybe act as the great leveller?

spassvogel

mistypopper
I consider it HUMAN that a TA who does consult towards camps will naturally explain all about the camps he/she nows and far less about the others. The latter is hearsay. Of course I appreciate first hand expertise. I always ask whether a TA has been to the places I am interesting in - based on experiences.

And - sorry for the typo regarding your alias earlier

SV

mistypopper

Spassvogel
No worries on the typo but thank you for noting

I think you have hit the nail on the head - at the end of the day we are all human...including the TA's and it is possibly up to the consumer to be informed and ask specifically about the places that take their fancy.

Why fix/change it if it ain't broken?

pixelpower

Seems in the last 20 posts or so, everyone is trying to come up with reasons to justify the high prices. Turning "eco", concession lease prices, operational costs, TA percentages, ...

The question we should ask ourselves is; have any of the above-mentioned "costs" increased drastically over the last years? The answer is ...no.

So is there a logical reason why the prices gave gone x2 x3 the last years? Again the answer is ...no.

The only logical explanation for the fact that prices are soaring and the fact that still most people fork over the money is: top-operators have come up with a very good way to maximize profit.

Their strategy is a mixture of actions like (over)hyping destinations, promising exclusivity, promising high luxury levels, focusing on security ("with us you are sure your money is not lost"), spotlighting any eco-effort that comes along, mystifying the cost of operations, and also: trying to control the market by giving the highest percentages for TA's (Craig himself says &Beyond is the top here, and WS a close second). They do all these things and more. No aspect is forgotten.

There are of course the annoying customers such as some of us. We are not first timers. We know what we used to pay. We know what to expect. We know luxury levels have not gone up. We know their eco efforts, on average, are no more or less than any other lodge out there. We know you should be able to book directly. We need no TA to tell us where and when to go.

Their way to maximize profit, we call that "greed".

andybiggs

I think that simple supply and demand models usually explain pricing for the safari industry. In situations where supply is limited, prices will naturally rise if demand is strong. Price optimization is naturally going to occur, as long as customers feel that they are getting a good value for the prices they are paying. I spent quite a bit of time creating pricing for software products 10 years ago, and the model breaks down when people don't feel that they are receiving the value that they expect, no matter what the price.

Many customers in the safari industry want different things from their safari: flushing toilets or a hole in the ground? Simple outdoor shower or a luxurious bath tub with a view? Newer vehicles? Fewer people per vehicle? Nice wine list? Fewer tents? It just all depends.

One thing is for certain: if a company is deemed to be charging too much for their services, and demand falls, pricing will naturally fall to meet a balance where demand is keeping occupancy levels to a desired level.

HariS

It's a situation where there is maximum utilization of the good times to price your product as high as is possible. It's a clear case of, "let's sail through the good times".

At these prices, the operators can go on for quite awhile ..... even if the camp is filled with a few full paying guests, they will still have an ample profit margin. Can probably also keep their operating costs down.

Throw in, last minute bookings etc etc., and they will continue to do well.

However, let's see what the future holds...... in other words, the future of safaris. The current global economy is not promising, the value for money on safaris is questionable, the game movements today more hit or miss than ever before(although yes, that's the luck of the draw and unpredictable)....

DonTopaz

Andy Biggs, thank you for a rational explanation of pricing. The price that a lodge sets -- or the prices that most businesses offering a product or service set -- has relatively little to do with the cost of producing that product or service. The biggest factors in the price are (1)what your potential consumers are willing to pay, and (2)the quality and price of your competitors' offerings.

If a consumer makes a poor decision -- for example, not finding an agent who is willing to offer accommodations in all price ranges -- then shame on the consumer.

spassvogel

Now - after taking part in this discussion and the time was here - I had a G+T I came to a simple yet fantastic (for some) conclusion:

There is a hunger for safari and there are people out there who are willingly paying these rates.

Don't let's blame the camp owners. They just react to that demand. And the TA help them to satisfy that demand.
Nothing bad about that.
It's the market which rules it.
We see it in all sectors.

Maybe the safari sector gets its saturation soon ;-)

SV

tockoloshe

Looks like top and bottom end being squeezed (so to speak!)Don't count on mobile safaris as an alternative:

Latest from Ngami Times (ngamitimes.com)

Park fees set to rise?
It is believed the government is considering substantially raising national park fees to keep out “undesirable tourism activities.” This would, sources say, ensure the country's wildlife areas – such as the Moremi Game Reserve and Chobe National Park - did not attract too many self-drive tourists, illegal operators or mobile operators but rather adhere to the low volume, high value aspects of current national parks policy.

twaffle

This is an interesting discussion however, it highlights just how confusing a safari in Botswana is to someone who has never been there before.

Mistypopper says “Regarding the pricing of Botswana - personally I say keep putting the prices up if it will mean saving the areas from turning into the circus that is the Masai Mara now. I do realise that is rather selfish thinking but I would still like for my kids and then their kids to have these pristine wilderness areas to visit one day.”
I disagree to some extent. Not all ‘would be’ safari goers can afford the incredibly outrageous prices charged in Botswana (and some other places) and some of these people are very conservation conscious. There must be some middle ground or are the less well off to be discriminated (again) because they don’t have the disposable income to visit wildlife in the wild. Charging more and more won’t save wildlife and the wilderness by itself.

Yes, the mass tourism in Kenya may be a problem but it is well to remember that Kenya was a developed safari destination long before most other countries and ,therefore, made mistakes which other places surely could learn from. There are major moves in Kenya to start restricting new lodges (although I will believe it when I see it).

Spassvogel “To me the Kenya concession system is very disputable - from a wildlife point of view. I see it solely as a Massai money printing machine. Plus these concessions are former pastoral (and some still are partly) areas where wildlife was absent for amyn years and has to come back slowly and some of them are by far not a guaratee for great sightings.

Besides the fact what these folks do with the 40+$pppd except buying more and more cattle..........”
I find this statement a little objectionable. Why should the Maasai not have a money printing machine in Kenya if operators in Botswana can? The concessions may be former pastoral lands but what better outlook can we expect than that they are reverting back to space for wildlife. So it takes a little time, better than the alternative. Cattle is wealth for Maasai and if they buy cattle that is their right, it is a bit paternalistic for us to say “earn your own money, give your lands over to wildlife so we rich people can enjoy the experience, but let us tell you how to spend your earnings”!

I think if we are serious about our safaris also contributing to the local community as well as the conservation of the area we should be asking many more pertinent questions of the operators of the lodges/camps we propose to visit. For example, the longevity of the staff (do they have a high turnover?), how do they support the local villages (how many do they employ), how sustainably do they run their camp as regards to rubbish removal, water supply, electricity etc., what do they contribute to the conservation of the area (and not just nice words but actual, measurable contributions to this) ... there are many other questions we could ask which don’t relate to food menus and camp luxuries.

I run a business and my prices are very much about supply and demand. It is not a retail business where you buy a wholesale product and add a certain % markup and that’s the end of it. I imagine that the camps and lodges are much like that as other here have said.

LAleslie

So, if everyone's outraged about the prices, why not go to Mozambique, where the wildlife is (allegedly) coming back, the prices are way lower, the tourists are few, and they are trying to follow Botswana's conservation model?