Luxury madness
Nov 3rd, 2010, 04:32 AM
#42
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It's all a matter of personal choice.
As others here, I'm not a newbie here and I adore being out in the bush.
Besides a 10 day self drive tour through kruger, had a fantastic 4 night fully inclusive Tuli (for me luxurious)lodge and very very very basic 3 nights Kruger-walking/camping safari for about the total amount that you could easily spend for 1 night in one of the well known lodges.
Had a fantastic experience and EXCELLENT sightings and guiding and met some wonderfull people. The only negative experience. I had was with a German couple who could't help to complain about the wine just not being chilled enough, the meat not being tender enough, about the fact that they saw nothing for 15 minutes while being on a gamedrive and who didn't stop bragging about their safari's in all of those very luxurious lodges.
Me and my girfriend were absolutely disgusted with tehm. And if it would mean that staying at those expensive lodges would increase the chance of having to spend my holliday with the same sort of people like them, I would think twice if I even want to stay there if I could afford it.
Please keep on going to all those very expensive luxury lodges if you want to and you can afford it. That way the less luxurious/cheaper, more-budget-friendly or best-value-for-money ones, or whatever you want to call them still remain affordable for me. The only thing that bothers me is, for certain areas, there are no more-or-less budget friendly options to visit them. But that's an other discussion I guess.
As others here, I'm not a newbie here and I adore being out in the bush.
Besides a 10 day self drive tour through kruger, had a fantastic 4 night fully inclusive Tuli (for me luxurious)lodge and very very very basic 3 nights Kruger-walking/camping safari for about the total amount that you could easily spend for 1 night in one of the well known lodges.
Had a fantastic experience and EXCELLENT sightings and guiding and met some wonderfull people. The only negative experience. I had was with a German couple who could't help to complain about the wine just not being chilled enough, the meat not being tender enough, about the fact that they saw nothing for 15 minutes while being on a gamedrive and who didn't stop bragging about their safari's in all of those very luxurious lodges.
Me and my girfriend were absolutely disgusted with tehm. And if it would mean that staying at those expensive lodges would increase the chance of having to spend my holliday with the same sort of people like them, I would think twice if I even want to stay there if I could afford it.
Please keep on going to all those very expensive luxury lodges if you want to and you can afford it. That way the less luxurious/cheaper, more-budget-friendly or best-value-for-money ones, or whatever you want to call them still remain affordable for me. The only thing that bothers me is, for certain areas, there are no more-or-less budget friendly options to visit them. But that's an other discussion I guess.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 06:03 AM
#43
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<i>"The only negative experience. I had was with a German couple who couldn't help to complain....."</i>
Dear Ruben, Please know that these people will complain <u>wherever</u> they are. It has NOTHING to do with the price of the lodging. That has been my point throughout this discussion. Bitchy people are bitchy people, no matter where. All bitchy people don't have money. All happy people are not poor. These grand and sweeping judgments about people without a huge budget being the salt of the earth and people willing to spend their cash all being nasty "fools" exhibits a very narrow view of the world population. This thread needs to die, with a new one concentrating on "value for dollars".
Dear Ruben, Please know that these people will complain <u>wherever</u> they are. It has NOTHING to do with the price of the lodging. That has been my point throughout this discussion. Bitchy people are bitchy people, no matter where. All bitchy people don't have money. All happy people are not poor. These grand and sweeping judgments about people without a huge budget being the salt of the earth and people willing to spend their cash all being nasty "fools" exhibits a very narrow view of the world population. This thread needs to die, with a new one concentrating on "value for dollars".
Nov 3rd, 2010, 07:02 AM
#44
<i> > This thread needs to die, with a new one concentrating on "value for dollars".</i>
Yes, some of us would love to see that discussion. I asked that question in this one, also about luxury lodges:
http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...stayed-at-.cfm
Maybe I'll just go ahead and start that thread, but I can only open it with the question and hope some experienced Fodorites reply.
BTW, I had a look at Jack's Camp and was blown away by the prices. Out of my league!
Yes, some of us would love to see that discussion. I asked that question in this one, also about luxury lodges:
http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...stayed-at-.cfm
Maybe I'll just go ahead and start that thread, but I can only open it with the question and hope some experienced Fodorites reply.
BTW, I had a look at Jack's Camp and was blown away by the prices. Out of my league!
Nov 3rd, 2010, 07:22 AM
#45
Nov 3rd, 2010, 08:31 AM
#46
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Thanks Nelson, I have posted something on your new thread.
My two cents toward this discussion is that there are SO many lodges one can choose from, that the key really is to be very specific about what you want and what is important to you (when asking questions here). It could be price, level of luxury, aircon, back-to-the-bush basics, view from the lodge, size of the lodge, number of guests per vehicle, game viewing (maybe specific animals), food, wine list, scenery, whatever. I'm sure for most it's not about name dropping and proving anything to anyone.
Likewise, when offering suggestions or recommendations it would be helpful to know what target audience would enjoy this lodge or camp - those who are budget conscious (or not), photographers, honeymooners, families with kids, those who want cheap, remote and rustic, etc. There is something out there for everyone's taste and budget, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
By the way, where is this XYZ lodge y'all talk about? If it's worth going back to 4 times, I want to see it!
Onne from Wild Wings Safaris
My two cents toward this discussion is that there are SO many lodges one can choose from, that the key really is to be very specific about what you want and what is important to you (when asking questions here). It could be price, level of luxury, aircon, back-to-the-bush basics, view from the lodge, size of the lodge, number of guests per vehicle, game viewing (maybe specific animals), food, wine list, scenery, whatever. I'm sure for most it's not about name dropping and proving anything to anyone.
Likewise, when offering suggestions or recommendations it would be helpful to know what target audience would enjoy this lodge or camp - those who are budget conscious (or not), photographers, honeymooners, families with kids, those who want cheap, remote and rustic, etc. There is something out there for everyone's taste and budget, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
By the way, where is this XYZ lodge y'all talk about? If it's worth going back to 4 times, I want to see it!
Onne from Wild Wings Safaris
Nov 3rd, 2010, 10:48 AM
#47
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"BTW, I had a look at Jack's Camp and was blown away by the prices. Out of my league!"
Nelson
Nowadays - many people are prepared to pay lux prices for having the privilege to be close to nature - and not closed in to a A/C kind of place!
Compare it to e.g. Fiji:
One pays a fortune to stay in bure without A/C, TV, phone, fax etc.
Nelson
Nowadays - many people are prepared to pay lux prices for having the privilege to be close to nature - and not closed in to a A/C kind of place!
Compare it to e.g. Fiji:
One pays a fortune to stay in bure without A/C, TV, phone, fax etc.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 10:49 AM
#48
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People please...
I know discussions on the web tend to polarize, but when I refuse to do just that, please don't try to do it for me.
- I am not judging anyone
- I never used words like fools, fat cats and name-droppers
- I don't look down on people that make other choices
etc...
Again, my intentions were just to make people realize that more money does not necessarily mean better quality (of whatever safari-parameter). If you don't want my advice, fine. But there's no need to be offended by it. <i>You</i> may think that people just pay exactly for what they want, and that I should not bother changing their minds. But <i>others</i> may like my advice. So I am going to bother anyway, whether you like it or not.
<i>This thread needs to die, with a new one concentrating on "value for dollars"</i>
Make no mistake; this thread is supposed to be exactly that.
B.regs,
J.
I know discussions on the web tend to polarize, but when I refuse to do just that, please don't try to do it for me.
- I am not judging anyone
- I never used words like fools, fat cats and name-droppers
- I don't look down on people that make other choices
etc...
Again, my intentions were just to make people realize that more money does not necessarily mean better quality (of whatever safari-parameter). If you don't want my advice, fine. But there's no need to be offended by it. <i>You</i> may think that people just pay exactly for what they want, and that I should not bother changing their minds. But <i>others</i> may like my advice. So I am going to bother anyway, whether you like it or not.
<i>This thread needs to die, with a new one concentrating on "value for dollars"</i>
Make no mistake; this thread is supposed to be exactly that.
B.regs,
J.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 11:22 AM
#49
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If you have read the above; I hope we can get back on track. I would really like us to focus on the music, and not on the piano player. We can have a healthy discussion without getting hostile can we not? I certainly don't see why you should get hostile toward me, or why you need to judge me.
Some replies from me again, starting with TC:
@TC;
<i>Why did I refer to your post as a troll? Perhaps it was this that you wrote...</i>
You said my opening post was trollish and now it is my 3rd post in this thread. If you keep looking long enough you are indeed going to find a stick to beat me with.
<i>I have now read your trip report ... and consequently understand more about what triggers your point of view</i>
Please don't judge me by this one trip report. I've posted plenty more in the past, and will post 4 more in the near future. You don't know me ;-)
<i>You are young. You will learn.</i>
I am 40 years old. And that 2nd remark is very patronizing.
<i>Your remarks regarding luxury camps show a lack of exposure to those venue.</i>
Aren't we forgetting something here? Sometimes you learn more about a certain lodge from people in the business (and I'm NOT talking about TA's of course) than you do by actually going there. You seem to forget how small this "industry" is.
I'll give you two examples from my last trip (from the top of my head):
- The owner from AOF (Courteney) and Shindzela (Dave) are both personal friends of an icon like Bruce Lawson.
- The owner of Pungwe (Lothar) knows both the founder (Colin) and the current manager (Andy) of Wilderness Safaris, in person.
It is incredible what you can learn from good discussions with lodge owners. Certainly when you show them that you are interested in how they run their stuff, and ask them what they think of the way the industry is going. Some people I've met over the years are the kind of people that go beyond them self for nature. They are - even today - trying to set (or at least maintain) high standards when it comes to how nature is treated, and when it comes to the amount and quality of bush-knowledge that is passed on to the visitor. Their involvement is certainly as big, or perhaps even bigger, than a manager from a big and expensive lodge. To give another example just from my last trip; we didn't get to talk to the owners of EP, let alone even meet them.
<i>I am sorry that you spent your money on the aforementioned "expensive" lodge (EP). Regardless of the cost, it doesn't sound like you got good value. You say yourself that it was the worst experience of your whole trip.</i>
Hmmm…. perhaps I wasn't clear here. Yes EP was the "worst", but it was still very very VERY good. And I certainly found it good value for money. So sorry for that confusion. In my trip report it will become clear why EP is "just that bit lower on the ladder" than the other places I've been on this last trip.
B.regs,
J.
Some replies from me again, starting with TC:
@TC;
<i>Why did I refer to your post as a troll? Perhaps it was this that you wrote...</i>
You said my opening post was trollish and now it is my 3rd post in this thread. If you keep looking long enough you are indeed going to find a stick to beat me with.
<i>I have now read your trip report ... and consequently understand more about what triggers your point of view</i>
Please don't judge me by this one trip report. I've posted plenty more in the past, and will post 4 more in the near future. You don't know me ;-)
<i>You are young. You will learn.</i>
I am 40 years old. And that 2nd remark is very patronizing.
<i>Your remarks regarding luxury camps show a lack of exposure to those venue.</i>
Aren't we forgetting something here? Sometimes you learn more about a certain lodge from people in the business (and I'm NOT talking about TA's of course) than you do by actually going there. You seem to forget how small this "industry" is.
I'll give you two examples from my last trip (from the top of my head):
- The owner from AOF (Courteney) and Shindzela (Dave) are both personal friends of an icon like Bruce Lawson.
- The owner of Pungwe (Lothar) knows both the founder (Colin) and the current manager (Andy) of Wilderness Safaris, in person.
It is incredible what you can learn from good discussions with lodge owners. Certainly when you show them that you are interested in how they run their stuff, and ask them what they think of the way the industry is going. Some people I've met over the years are the kind of people that go beyond them self for nature. They are - even today - trying to set (or at least maintain) high standards when it comes to how nature is treated, and when it comes to the amount and quality of bush-knowledge that is passed on to the visitor. Their involvement is certainly as big, or perhaps even bigger, than a manager from a big and expensive lodge. To give another example just from my last trip; we didn't get to talk to the owners of EP, let alone even meet them.
<i>I am sorry that you spent your money on the aforementioned "expensive" lodge (EP). Regardless of the cost, it doesn't sound like you got good value. You say yourself that it was the worst experience of your whole trip.</i>
Hmmm…. perhaps I wasn't clear here. Yes EP was the "worst", but it was still very very VERY good. And I certainly found it good value for money. So sorry for that confusion. In my trip report it will become clear why EP is "just that bit lower on the ladder" than the other places I've been on this last trip.
B.regs,
J.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 11:33 AM
#50
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@Spassvogel;
<i>WHO is qualified to judge that for others and on which base?</i>
I am not judging anyone. Note that I wrote <i>"What I'm trying to say is that the most expensive choice <b>may</b> not be the smartest one."</i>
I hope you interpret that the correct way. Because it says; some may be helped by my inf ...and others may not. When posting on Fodors, I do admit I do not have the latter in mind.
B.regs,
J.
<i>WHO is qualified to judge that for others and on which base?</i>
I am not judging anyone. Note that I wrote <i>"What I'm trying to say is that the most expensive choice <b>may</b> not be the smartest one."</i>
I hope you interpret that the correct way. Because it says; some may be helped by my inf ...and others may not. When posting on Fodors, I do admit I do not have the latter in mind.
B.regs,
J.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 11:58 AM
#51
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One last remark about that German couple that complained about not seeing wildlife for 15 mins: I can perfectly understand them! And I am quite sure they will NOT complain like that when going to (for example) a typical lodge in Sabi Sands.
When we left EP for a game drive, the first thing the guide does is put in his earpiece, switch on the radio, and say...
"stations, stations. EP3 is mobile. Any updates?" (Exact words)
Seems they have trackers out all the time to keep an eye on interesting animals that roam through the concession. On top of that, interesting sightings are always shared with other vehicles. Not only the vehicles of the same lodge, but also other lodges that share traversing rights (and the same radio frequency).
When a sighting gets crowded, you get a "slot". It only happened to us about 2 or 3 times, but I have overheard our guide saying stuff like...
"I'll stay here a little longer and will then come over. ETA 15 minutes, so <some guide name> you can have my slot. I'll take number 3"
For people who are always going to lodges in SS, I can imagine this is no news at all. For us it felt like safari on steroids.
You'll have to wait for my trip report to hear about some downsides of a safari like that. Suffice to say right now that I can understand those Germans. If they'd been in our jeep at, say, Pungwe, they'd be seriously disappointed when, for example, we stop for half an hour to watch ...a woodpecker.
By mentioning that woodpecker I just remember something else; I had to make our EP guide understand that I wanted him to stop for a beautiful bird too, and not just for "the big 5". When he found out we were no 1st-timers like the rest of the jeep, he actually liked it I think.
Anyway, all others in the jeep were on their first safari. All they wanted was to see the bigger animals. They didn't care much about the rest. They didn't care about the birds. Nor about insects. Nor about fauna. Not even about photography; plenty of flashes of consumer cams going off ...towards a subject that is a zillion miles out of reach, lol.
And I stay with my opinion; they didn't mind the amount of people in the jeep either. Newbies never do.
Ciao,
J.
Ciao,
J.
When we left EP for a game drive, the first thing the guide does is put in his earpiece, switch on the radio, and say...
"stations, stations. EP3 is mobile. Any updates?" (Exact words)
Seems they have trackers out all the time to keep an eye on interesting animals that roam through the concession. On top of that, interesting sightings are always shared with other vehicles. Not only the vehicles of the same lodge, but also other lodges that share traversing rights (and the same radio frequency).
When a sighting gets crowded, you get a "slot". It only happened to us about 2 or 3 times, but I have overheard our guide saying stuff like...
"I'll stay here a little longer and will then come over. ETA 15 minutes, so <some guide name> you can have my slot. I'll take number 3"
For people who are always going to lodges in SS, I can imagine this is no news at all. For us it felt like safari on steroids.
You'll have to wait for my trip report to hear about some downsides of a safari like that. Suffice to say right now that I can understand those Germans. If they'd been in our jeep at, say, Pungwe, they'd be seriously disappointed when, for example, we stop for half an hour to watch ...a woodpecker.
By mentioning that woodpecker I just remember something else; I had to make our EP guide understand that I wanted him to stop for a beautiful bird too, and not just for "the big 5". When he found out we were no 1st-timers like the rest of the jeep, he actually liked it I think.
Anyway, all others in the jeep were on their first safari. All they wanted was to see the bigger animals. They didn't care much about the rest. They didn't care about the birds. Nor about insects. Nor about fauna. Not even about photography; plenty of flashes of consumer cams going off ...towards a subject that is a zillion miles out of reach, lol.
And I stay with my opinion; they didn't mind the amount of people in the jeep either. Newbies never do.
Ciao,
J.
Ciao,
J.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 12:32 PM
#52
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Sorry, but this newbie didn't want share a jeep with anyone on our first safari, and planned our first trip with that as top priority. Now, I would happily share with friends of similar viewing interests. Also, we wanted to see all the wildlife. All of it - cats, dogs, furr, scales or feathers. So, I guess we don't fit the mold?
Nov 3rd, 2010, 12:39 PM
#53
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<i>"Aren't we forgetting something here? Sometimes you learn more about a certain lodge from people in the business (and I'm NOT talking about TA's of course) than you do by actually going there."</i>
So it seems you are saying that your opinions aren't even first hand experience --just what the manager of a competitor's lodge has told you?
And yes....those Germans will bitch about something no matter where they are.
<i>"they didn't mind the amount of people in the jeep either. Newbies never do."</i>
Well, I was a "newbie" once and I sure minded then, just as I mind now.
<i>"I am 40 years old."</i> You are young. You will learn.
So it seems you are saying that your opinions aren't even first hand experience --just what the manager of a competitor's lodge has told you?
And yes....those Germans will bitch about something no matter where they are.
<i>"they didn't mind the amount of people in the jeep either. Newbies never do."</i>
Well, I was a "newbie" once and I sure minded then, just as I mind now.
<i>"I am 40 years old."</i> You are young. You will learn.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 12:44 PM
#54
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I guess so.
Seriously; I think you are an exception to the rule. Well, certainly if you opted for the Sabi Sands type of lodge. As that is where the type of "newbies" I describe seem to flock to.
I also have to apologize if "newbie" sounds condescending. That is not my intention. We've all been newbies once. Nothing wrong with that. I think that as IT guys we use the term too often.
I applaud you for your decision to not only go for the big stuff. Wish there were more people like that. ;-)
B.regs,
J.
Seriously; I think you are an exception to the rule. Well, certainly if you opted for the Sabi Sands type of lodge. As that is where the type of "newbies" I describe seem to flock to.
I also have to apologize if "newbie" sounds condescending. That is not my intention. We've all been newbies once. Nothing wrong with that. I think that as IT guys we use the term too often.
I applaud you for your decision to not only go for the big stuff. Wish there were more people like that. ;-)
B.regs,
J.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 01:41 PM
#56
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PP, You remind me so much of my own daughter who is only a few years older than you. No intent to start a war. My point throughout our discussion has been for you to see that you have a very limited view of the world -- <u>we all do.</u> Therefore we should give our advice from that perspective -- such as; "in my vehicle at XYZ camp people did not seem to mind being 8 to an auto" -- not, <i>"they didn't mind the amount of people in the jeep either. Newbies never do."</i> The later statement is an assumption, not a fact. You have not personally met every "newbie" who has ever gone on safari. It is for that reason, and that reason alone, that I say -- you are still quite young and learning. I think you are bright and will see someday that all things are not the same -- there is good, there is bad and there is everything in-between. And those elements are to be found at every price point. It is more about personalities and less about money than you might think. I apologize for upsetting you. One thing we can agree on -- we both love Africa.....and that is a very good thing.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 03:16 PM
#57
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@TC
I certainly think you are correct with the reverse snobbery. It's the same as those who openly mock people as fools for paying 'normal' rates while announcing they go to the same camps for a fraction of the cost. When asked on how this is done it suddenly becomes a state secret or some reference like "the information is openly available on the internet" is made. I've only met one person who has given me some advice on this.
I've been to some of the camps mentioned here and I'm always looking for cheaper alternatives but travelling single at to some of the cheaper options means you get hammered for 50% - 100% single supplements. It's then cheaper to go to the 'exppensive' options (many of who don't charge single supplements).
And having 8-10 versus 4-6 people in a vehicle makes a HUGE difference.
I certainly think you are correct with the reverse snobbery. It's the same as those who openly mock people as fools for paying 'normal' rates while announcing they go to the same camps for a fraction of the cost. When asked on how this is done it suddenly becomes a state secret or some reference like "the information is openly available on the internet" is made. I've only met one person who has given me some advice on this.
I've been to some of the camps mentioned here and I'm always looking for cheaper alternatives but travelling single at to some of the cheaper options means you get hammered for 50% - 100% single supplements. It's then cheaper to go to the 'exppensive' options (many of who don't charge single supplements).
And having 8-10 versus 4-6 people in a vehicle makes a HUGE difference.
Nov 3rd, 2010, 06:57 PM
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PP said up top -
"Seriously, we were at EP in september, and the EP guide told us that EP has about 90% occupancy, while most other lodges run at 40 to 60%."
I saw this and no one has questioned it. I don't believe that the other camps in Sabi Sand were only 40-60% occupancy in Sep. More like 90% occupancy, and for many consecutive days 100%. What is my basis for saying this? Someone told me.
regards - tom
"Seriously, we were at EP in september, and the EP guide told us that EP has about 90% occupancy, while most other lodges run at 40 to 60%."
I saw this and no one has questioned it. I don't believe that the other camps in Sabi Sand were only 40-60% occupancy in Sep. More like 90% occupancy, and for many consecutive days 100%. What is my basis for saying this? Someone told me.
regards - tom
