pixelpower

I've been reading Helen's trip on the planning of her first safari ever ( see: http://www.fodors.com/community/afri...-need-help.cfm ) ...and saw a reply from "Judy" who wrote:

"4 Nights Sabi Sands - Exeter River Lodge (special stay 4 pay 3)"

(she chose that for her next trip apparently)

...my immediate reaction was "yeah ...and STILL pay at least 50% too much"

( sorry Judy :-S Please understand this is not aimed at you personally!)

Seriously, we were at EP in september, and the EP guide told us that EP has about 90% occupancy, while most other lodges run at 40 to 60%. So many empty beds; a result of all those lodges fishing in the same "big spender" pond. The price difference between EP and others apparently also has something to do with the size of EP's territory when compared to some other's smaller patches. Seems EP gets plenty of money from traversing rights.

When Judy say that Exeter "would be a nice upgrade from EP", I wonder how so. Certainly not in wildlife experience. We frequently crossed paths with jeeps of all other lodges in the neighboorhood (including the owner of Arathusa; an elderly lady who apparently invited her whole bridge club for a safari). So we saw the same stuff.

Is it a difference in luxury then? You know, we sometimes make fun of the places that have "heated towel racks" in the bush. Well... the only thing missing at EP were ...those heated towel racks! But all the other things were there. The white napkins to wash your face after a game drive. The gym. The health spa where you can enjoy a massage while watching the waterhole. The bedtime story and chocolate on your pillow. And the two pools where no one ever swims in.
Seriously; do you absolutely need all that? Do you need to fork over a lot of money to have that while on safari? Or even more strange; do you absolutely need even MORE than that, and "upgrade" to an even more expensive lodge?

Note that the above questions are not aimed at Judy! It's just that sometimes I am amazed at what people consider to be a good safari experience.

For me, while EP certainly delivered in photo opportunities, the safari experience was the worst of my whole trip. I mean, how can you enjoy the bush when you lock it out with electric fences and stone walls and glass windows??
Even if I wanted to hear a lion roar at night, I imagine I could not have heard it, even if I decided to sleep on the lawn. Because of all the air conditioners humming!

What happened to "less is more"??

Ciao,

J.

twaffle

Very good points Pixelpower.

It is all part of our increasing move away from experiencing the natural world to observing it from a glass bubble of comfort.

spassvogel

You are actually highlighting the difference between LODGES and tented CAMPS.

I should state first: I like EP as it's a very good product and good value for money! But only for those who don't oppose to sit in a car with another 8 people!
That's the first reason they can't charge more as serious photographers won't accept that.

Second - if you book your own vehicle you are reaching qickly the 500/600US$ per night.

Whether one NEEDS first class service and rates or not - that certainly is a personal choice. And yes - there are people who happily pay a LOAD of money even for being recognised by name when they come the next time - not that EP won't deliver that gimmick.

There are even folks who don't care to pay for laundry (LOL) and soft drinks extra on top of their bed night rate of 600+US$.

Some people stay a lodges who charge for water - but people don't care.

And a LOAD of people need to meet their peers!
Some need to pay for "name dropping", some to experience a plunge pool in between game drives, and some just need the CONFIRMATION they have been there and can state that by wearing a signature shirt.

Some pay a LOAD to become part of the "gang".

It's all a matter of personal preferences!

And don't mix it up: Some people pay Loads of money for staying without having A/C and plunge pool in the middle of nowhere.

Luxury isn't only measured in A/C, plunge pools. Have a look at e.g. Jack's Camp. You can't get closer to nature for a fortune ;-)

cary999

pp says - "I mean, how can you enjoy the bush when you lock it out with electric fences and stone walls and glass windows?? "

Reminds me of the old Native American (Indian) puzzlement. They said - We don't understand white man. He not like outdoors so he build house. He now wants outdoors so he puts windows in house walls. But he does not want outdoors in house so he puts glass in windows. Then he does want outdoors so he make windows to open. Then he not like outdoors so he closes windows. But he want cool like outdoors so he puts in air conditioning. White never know what he wants!!!

regards - tom

skimmer2

The price is what a fool is prepared to pay and apparently some of the safari outfitters are testing its upper limits nowadays. Companies operating in neigbouring Botswana are excelling in it.

The good thing about South Africa is that you are not forced to visit those upmarket places if you want to have a good experience.

There is a wide believe amongst unexperienced safari goers that the more you pay, the better the experience will be. Or you are going to see more big cats ... Why pay a fortune to go those "5 star - hotel-like" places ... and it's not that everyone visiting these opulent places is a billionaire. If I want a large swimming pool, fine dining and breathtaking views from my room, SA has much better places on offer (in price and experience) than those "must visit" safari lodges.

It doesn't really make such a big difference if you are sitting with four or eight in a vehicle while taking photographs ... Sorry but that's one of those safari myths used by marketing people. For serious wildlife photography, you need to be on your own. And don't forget the luck to come across something special. The number of vehicles at a sighting is a much more important factor ... you don't need two other vehicles around especially if they are blocking your view. And most of the times they don't want to back up immediately.

So choice is yours ...

nycjv

Pixel Power, I take no personal offense as I understand what you’re trying to say, as I know some people feel that they must stay at the very exclusive lodges costing upwards toward $1500 a night lodges to get a good experience (or to impress their friends and colleagues) and I know that isn‘t the case nor is that something I can allow with my budget, or even if I could I wouldn‘t as some of the prices are out of control. When replying to Helen’s posts, I was just trying to show her that she could do her trip with her $4000 budget she had for accommodations at the same locations I’ll be visiting in Southern Africa next year.

I agree that you don’t have to spend a fortune to have a great experience. However, I do feel &Beyond’s rates are very good value for a solo traveler compared to others I priced as they don’t charge a single supplement and the pay 4 stay 3 works for me, so why shouldn’t I get the most for my personal budget. By mentioning it as an upgrade, I’m referring to the lodge accommodations and the great setting in Sabi Sand. The rooms at Exeter River are beautiful and the most important part of the upgrade is that they all have views over the Sand River where you can watch animals especially during the dry season. The Exeter River Lodge isn’t fenced and that is also a plus in my book. I was in no means referring to the game drives which I imagine are similar except for the lodges that have very limited traversing rights. Exeter River Lodge shares rights with several other reserves such as Inyati, Ulusaba, Leopard Hills, Ibude, and Savannah but not with Elephant Plains which is a little Northeast. I believe EP shares with Arathusa and possibly one or two others.

I stayed at a tented &Beyond camp in the Masai Mara a few months ago and had a great time as the staff was incredible and my driver/guide was wonderful. Yes there were many amenities and a swimming pool over looking the Mara plains, but I also stayed in another tented camp in the Mara owned by Porini on the Olare Orok private conservancy that employs Maasai villagers and gives back to the community, this camp was much more basic and very different than the &Beyond camp, but I enjoyed them both equally and for different reasons even though one was definitely more luxurious. Each person must decide for themselves what they want out of their safari experience, I’m just offering my findings as I feel I was able to put together a good itinerary and nice accommodations for which a few of the tour companies in SA said wasn’t possible with my budget. What I think is really out of hand is the lodging/camp costs in Botswana, so that is not in the cards unless in the next few years there is a dramatic price correction!

pixelpower

@ Spassvogel; I hear what you're saying. But you seem to speak about exceptions. I mean:

- Most people do not choose a top end lodge because they want to name-drop
- Most people do not mind being in a jeep with 8 other people. I've seen this myself at EP; they don't even own decent camera gear (or don't know how to work their cam).
And so on...

I think Johan may be closer to the truth (ic ppl thing they get a better wildlife experience when paying more).

@ Judy; OK I see why you offered the advice to Helen now. Perhaps yours was not such a good example to start this thread with. But still; my argument stands.

B.regs,

J.

canadian_robin

Luxury is in the eye of the beholder. Since my DH and I choose to self-drive and sleep in a roof-top tent when we travel in Africa, a night in any tented camp is always pure luxury from our perspective. Not having to scale a ladder to reach our bed (although the view is great!), having someone else cook for us, not having to worry that we will be eaten while changing a flat tire, a flush toilet (actually, any toilet!), and a kindly staff member who offers to do our laundry (even if a fee is involved) - pure luxury! A hot shower has been known to make me swoon! However, I wouldn't give up our roof-top tent, the freedom of self-drive, and the isolation of the special campsites for all the luxury in the world. Thankfully, Africa offers plenty of choice - each to his/her own! Robin

christabir

You also leave out the fact that people from the US almost always use a TA for their first safari as it seems to be so exotic. I don't blame the TA's for sending first time safari-goers to camps they know will leave a good impression. The marketing from a camp like Shindzela is non-existent in the US, where andBeyond and WS do lots of marketing here. Would I, if I were a TA, send someone on their first safari to Shindzela or Mashatu Tented if I had the option of Lion Sands, Kings or Vumbura? No. I used a TA for our first Africa trip, and I am glad we did. We had a great experience and we will be going back as often as possible. I am better informed now and hopefully will make better choices in the future. But if our first expereince had been bad or so-so? I don't know if I would be so hooked. It was not even a consideration for me to do a self drive on our first (or second) safari. Just too exotic. And the national parks? Absolutely not. I don't think I am much different than most of the people who travel to Africa for the first time. And there is a bit of fear factor - we hear only bad stuff here and very little of it would effect the tourists.

Unfortunately, I don't need all those extra amenities at most camps - I prefer the places that just feed me, take me on good drives or walks and have a comfy bed. I don't need or want a spa - and I admit I prefer the company of the other guests at the less expensive camps. I'm also not so picky about the number of passengers. As long as everyone is nice, I can deal with anything. I had a horrible experience with 5 in the vehicle and a perfectly lovely experience with 9. Yes, better with 2, but it gets "lonely" - four days of just you and the guide.

I do know people who would go to Mombo and Vumbura and Londolozi because more expensive must be better. They would never go to the "lesser" camps - they must be "lesser". But not to "camp-drop" - more likely to brag about the price. We also assume that safari is expensive, so going to a less luxurious camp must not be as good. Now I know better.

cary999

Repeating most of what chistabir said. and-
Remember getting to Africa is a lot easier from some parts of the world than other parts. A "short" 9 hour flight down from Europe is believe me 5 times easier than two flights totaling 20 hours and 32 hours on the go from the USA and Aus. AND a 9 hour time change. If I were a TA in USA, would I have my clients suffer flights/time change and then not have them in a safari camp that I'm not sure they will be impressed with?

regards - tom

cary999

as I said above and also in add in the cost of flights to Africa

regards - tom

Bushkid0

Hi Pixelpower,

You first attracted my attention with your absolutely incomparable comparison of the various camps in the Kruger and Greater Kruger region. It was an outstanding piece of work.

Once again, your post is masterful and so relevant.

I've travelled extensively in Southern Africa as a wildlife guide and as a tour operator. I've been horrified at the prices that people pay (and highly amused at the efforts of the big operators to fill their over-rated and half-empty camps - stay for 4, pay for 3, at 3 times the price you should pay - LOL! what marketing hogwash). That's because (a) the lodges are so overpriced that they don't need high occupancy, and (b) they are so over-priced ...

I'm constantly amused by the name dropping on this site, e.g. "four safaris at XYZ camp makes me an African Safari specialist". For goodness sake, I've been on 200 safaris and 500 open game drives and learn something new every day, and I find new and beautiful properties all the time.

Granted, most of my most memorable wildlife experiences have occurred while I was camping with a tent (and canadian_robin and I share the same shear pleasure of the adventure). Sorry, I'm not a luxury lodge guy - I pay for experience, and not pampered opulence.

Over the last two weeks, I've stayed at two lodges/camps that absolutely astounded me in the sheer purity of the experience.

One was Koro Camp in the Tuli Game Reserve of Botswana. At $120.00 pppn sharing (odd), fully inclusive, it was fantastic and exceptional value.

The other was at Umlani Bushcamp in the Timbavati. Although a bit more expensive than Koro, it remains within reasonable and attainable levels, and the service and wildlife experiences were of the highest quality, with brilliant, caring and "real" guides and trackers.

Shindzela, Africa on Foot, and Transfronteir Walking Safaris fit into the same category. I like the lodges where the ellies browse in the garden (well, not always).

You can give me those type of experiences while the pampered sit and worry about how many people they'll share their vehicle with and whether they'll be supplied with electric sock warmers.

skimmer2

Bushkid,

You are spot on.

TC

<i>"I'm constantly amused by the name dropping on this site, e.g. "four safaris at XYZ camp makes me an African Safari specialist". For goodness sake, I've been on 200 safaris and 500 open game drives.......$120.00 pppn sharing (odd), fully inclusive, it was fantastic and exceptional value."</i>

Might this be interpreted as a bit of reverse snobbery? Those that brag about how cheaply they travel, seeing no middle ground, I find to be equally boorish. Really....how is it your place to judge another's travel spending?

Bushkid0

LOL TC! Each to their own ...

Fortunately I know the real Africa, and share it with real people. Not pampered fat-cats and leopards that have been fed for three generations ...

TC

<i>fed for three generations ...</i>

As if you have personally met and reviewed the family tree of every single person who has stepped foot on the continent. I believe you proved my point.

cary999

Yes indeed, I'm one of those who says I've stayed at XYZ camp 4 times. This is not to impress you or anyone with my "extensive" experience but to let you know I've actually been there. Too much posted is "hear-say". Or reporting "the best safari ever" and is was because it was their only safari. This is especially true of TripAdviser.

regards - tom

pixelpower

Wow, my thread is causing a bit of a stir. Well, good!

I'll try to reply to each of you individually.

@Robin; I agree about using tents. I liked that as well. We did a mobile camping safari in Botswana with Ewan Masson.

But I do have a few remarks then:
a) it only is an equally good or better experience (to me) when still accompanied by a professional guide. If we had done that Botswana trip as a self-drive, we'd only seen 1/3rd of what we saw now.
b) tents only work when you are in good physical condition. I mean; I can easily imagine a person with, say, back problems, who will not like crawling in and out of that tent. TBH even I found one annoying thing; I needed a solid and horizontal surface to put my contact lens container on, and could not find it in the tent. Out of the tent was not an option either; monkeys might steal it. I ended up putting the container in my shoe!

B.regs,

J.

pixelpower

@Christabir; you make some good points.

Well… I do understand why a newbie would go for a top-$ lodge (the arguments you forwarded), but what I don't understand is the upward trend that I see; those lodges seem to ask more and more, and the clientele follows like lemmings and just forks over the dough. That is not what one would expect in the current economic climate. Nor is it in line with the increasing amount of good info on the web. I mean; YOU certainly seem to have learned from the good advice of others on the net, no? ;-)

I must admit I do not agree on some things you say. For example:

<i>I don't blame the TA's for sending first time safari-goers to camps they know will leave a good impression</i>.

How are you sure they will leave a good impression? They might just as well be appalled by the snobbery, or the way they treat staff, or the way they treat animals, or whatever.

Besides, what makes you (or the TA's) think that a lodge like AOF or Shindzela will leave a worse impression? I mean, it's not as if the customer is missing any comfort, right? A good bed, a hot shower, fantastic food, a way to charge batteries, and a top guide; it's all there.

<i>The marketing from a camp like Shindzela is non-existent in the US, where andBeyond and WS do lots of marketing here.</i>

This might surprise all of you; a staff member at AOF, and the owner of Pungwe both told me they get about 70% of their clientele from TA's. I assume it's not any different at Shindzela; they had a couple from Seattle who came via a TA while we were there.

Perhaps you (as well as a lot of people on this board) are listening to the wrong TA's?

B.regs,

J.

pixelpower

@Bushkid0;

That's enough now. Stop mentioning Koro. I don't want it to become too popular, as Tuli block is next on my list.

Ciao,

J.