nyama

A lion researcher in Botswana told me once during a photo safari:
"The problem with the Jouberts and their supporters is that they never deliver scientific-based facts and figures, but only emotions..."

I wish that will change in the future.

For all who prefer some facts:
http://www.felidae.org/JOBURG/lion.htm offers background and strategy papers of the IUCN Lion Conservation Workshop in Joburg, January 2006.
Recommended document: "Conservation Strategy for the Lion (Panthera leo) in Eastern and Southern Africa". Look at the table on page 19: Okavango-Hwange is regarded as viable conservation unit with a stable lion population.

Nyama
(photo safari traveller since 13 years and never involved in hunting, once a true believer of Dereck and Beverly but now with a more differentiated view)

jweis

nyama - If this researcher is funded by pro-hunting (BIG $$) organizations, then of course he/she would point to emotions as driving the Jouberts. I'm not saying that "problem lions killinglivestock are not a real issue", it's the trophy hunters that are the real problem here.

D&B are also stars - not surprising that some people want to knock them down.

Of coursand his fallacious "facts" regarding when it is safe to shoot a lion with a partially black nose are worth about as much or even less than simple emotion in this case.

I looked at the PDF. Hmmm... I see that Safari Club are proudly displayed on the cover. It's funny - the language of these documents waffles about conserving lions and that PAC is the true threat to the lions, but let's face it... the hunting orgs want one thing - to ensure that there are still big, beautiful male lions out there that their members can go and kill, skin, behead, and put the trophy on their wall.

Candy coat it, claim that lion hunters are saving the environment and photo safari camps are doing more harm, and denounce the emotional conservationists all you want - the simple truth is --> no one eats or even thinks about eating a lion, hunters kill lions for only one reason. Period.

jweis

Post got a bit cropped ... I'm referring to Packer when I talk about black spotting on the nose indicating that a lion is 6 years old and therefore safe to kill without adversely affecting the lion dynamics (absolute crap though).

PredatorBiologist

nyama: looking at the data is good and needs to be considered but the study itself discusses the difficulties of this data collection. The researchers that provide the two methods for population estimate even 'agree to disagree' -- one has 14,000+ lions in Tanzania while the other method comes up with just over 7,000. But beyond the fact that the numbers are somewhat questionable is the health of any species population cannot be done based on numbers alone, genetic strength and diversity are essential to consider.

This is the huge problem that James alludes to. Packer's suggestion that males 6 years and up can be shot with no ramifications on lion populations completely ignores the importance of genetic selection through competition. He may well be able to provide statistical numbers that will show that population numbers will not change much by taking out mature males but that totally ignores the genetic health and natural function of lion dynamics. Many of us know cases where lions well past 6 are holding prides and dominating breeding so it is essential to not base everything on simple population numbers, they do not accurately portray the entire picture of health for lion populations.

Beyond all that there is no statistical measures for ethics. Whether it impacts populations or genetic health or not I think it is just not appropriate to work hard to habituate these predators on a daily basis to vehicles and humans and then allow them to be hunted after we have stripped them of their natural weariness of mankind. No numbers analysis needed for that, people either believe that is wrong or it doesn't matter -- to me it is clearly wrong.

Momliz

thought this was topical, with hunting info.

Feistybrit

Tanzanis is into trophy hunting too.

Tanzania is by far the premier hunting safari destination in all of Africa. Relax in our luxurious camps while experiencing the ambiance of the East African bush. Explore a bit, and let us show you what we can offer to make your Tanzania hunting safari all you have ever dreamed about.

The above is from a Tanzanian hunting website that I found in error when looking at safari's in Tanzania.
I am dead against hunting, particularly trophy hunting.
The guy that runs this is Phil Lozano and apparently quite a few people are paying big bucks to go and tropy hunt.

I was saddened to find this out, but am not naive enough tb believe it's not going on, and when I contacted Phil he was quick to point out that there are at least no 'canned hunts' still operating, like there is in North America.

I just am not the type to like hunting. I hate trophy hunting more than anything though.

nyama

There are 141 hunting concessions in Tanzania, leased to 42 operators (2003 data). According to IUCN, you have 41,000 square kilometres of protected areas for non-consumptive use (national parks, wilderness areas etc for photo safaris) but 236,410 square kilometres of protected areas for sustainable use (game reserves, "game management" areas) although not all of the latter are currently used for hunting.

jweis

Hi all,

I'm just back from a 5-week trip, much of it in Bots, and have learned that the ban on hunting lions in Botswana is now again in place.

Effective as of late October, there is NO HUNTING of lions at all in Botswana. Furthermore, there is now supposedly a ban on PAC (problem animal control) killings of lions as well. The PAC part seems a bit "iffy" to me at first stroke, as I am not sure how much enforcement the gov't actually exerts in this regard, but it is certainly positive news to me regardless.

I wonder whether the renewed ban has something to do with Ian Khama (who will become Botswana's fourth president when President Festus Mogae resigns in April 2008). The current VP of Botswana is a former commander of the BDF and a fairly outspoken proponent for conservation of his country's megafauna.

More info here:
http://www.huntingreport.com/worldup...?articleid=334

James

afrigalah

Thanks for the update, James. A very interesting 'hunting report', too.

John

GeoffG

Thanks for the link James.

Quote "I wonder whether the renewed ban has something to do with Ian Khama (who will become Botswana's fourth president when President Festus Mogae resigns in April 2008). The current VP of Botswana is a former commander of the BDF and a fairly outspoken proponent for conservation of his country's megafauna"

..and correct me if I'm wrong.

He is currently a part owner of Linyanti Explorations the current holder of the Selinda Concession lease.

Geoff.

jweis

Hi John,

You know what the old saying is:
Keep your friends close...

I try to stay abreast of the hunting industry, as it impacts me on several levels.

James

jweis

Geoff,

Yes, you are correct with regards to the Linyanti Reserve and Ian Khama,

I stay in touch with Colin Bell, also a part-owner, along with D&B Joubert, and they make a great team of like-minded people IMO.

James

nyama

There is some more info about the lion hunting ban at Safaritalk,
safaritalk.net/index.php?showtopic=1457

sonali74

Thanks, James for posting, very very happy to know my favourite cat is again protected....

I believe there are alot of wildlife parks in which the lion population is low, to manage the higher population, wild animals can be relocated/sold to other areas where the predator/prey ratio is imbalanced....

The industry can make money to support animals without killing them, I am no expert, but I was just thinking of ways to prevent hunting,Sonali

nyama

We already discussed this three weeks ago, http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35090921. The main reason for the 'ban' was PAC.

jweis

There is a rumor floating that Botswana are getting set to ban leopard hunting there as now well.

I cannot confirm anything other than the rumor, but this would be a strong move again for Botswana and I hope it turns out to be fact.

Any of our Fodorites in or near Bots hear anything yet?

James

HariS

James,

That's fantastic news ...... hope this comes true! This would probably keep away hunters all together to seek out other countries .... they may not be interested in impala and letchwe and the ocassional warthog, will they?

Hari