long neck women
Apr 2nd, 2008, 04:44 PM
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long neck women
ok - some controversy
initially we had wanted to visit the long neck tribe near mhs, but doing some reading it seems that it may be more of a sad expoitation of some very unfortunate people and we should stay away. Is my reading correct and are these women being coerced/ taken advantage of, or is this merely another hill tribe visit that is interesting and worth a stop, and my books are exaggerating the issue-
thoughts?
initially we had wanted to visit the long neck tribe near mhs, but doing some reading it seems that it may be more of a sad expoitation of some very unfortunate people and we should stay away. Is my reading correct and are these women being coerced/ taken advantage of, or is this merely another hill tribe visit that is interesting and worth a stop, and my books are exaggerating the issue-
thoughts?
Apr 2nd, 2008, 04:59 PM
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http://www.all-thailand-exp.com/eco.htm
I have not used this agent, but find the information presented to be very good. It might help you in your planning.
I have not used this agent, but find the information presented to be very good. It might help you in your planning.
Apr 2nd, 2008, 05:16 PM
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I visited one of these villages near Mae Hong Son a few years ago. I didn't want to go, but it was part of a day trip I had booked. I disliked the idea of visiting a human zoo.
On the one hand, the ladies at the village we went to seemed to be happy to show off their culture, and didn't seem to be coerced into being on display. Of course, you can wonder how they felt about having that done to them as children.
On the other hand, something to keep in mind is that these people - most of whom were born here - are treated as refugees by the Thais. They aren't Thai citizens and are barred from seeking employment in Thailand, so they don't really have much choice but to put themselves on display to earn a little money.
On the one hand, the ladies at the village we went to seemed to be happy to show off their culture, and didn't seem to be coerced into being on display. Of course, you can wonder how they felt about having that done to them as children.
On the other hand, something to keep in mind is that these people - most of whom were born here - are treated as refugees by the Thais. They aren't Thai citizens and are barred from seeking employment in Thailand, so they don't really have much choice but to put themselves on display to earn a little money.
Apr 2nd, 2008, 05:21 PM
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i think the bottom line is that this has become a way for these folks to make a living....its called tourism...
many have reported, like michael, to have had an enjoyable time while visiting....one fodorite reported having had wonderful conversations with some of these ladies...
i see no difference in this exposure than in the visit to any "cultural" site in any foreign country...
many have reported, like michael, to have had an enjoyable time while visiting....one fodorite reported having had wonderful conversations with some of these ladies...
i see no difference in this exposure than in the visit to any "cultural" site in any foreign country...
Apr 2nd, 2008, 05:49 PM
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I agree with Bob. My understanding is that these people were not forced and are, in fact, living better then they were before and are NOT being made to get rid of their culture. I went to one of the villages very unwillingly but as someone else said the women seemed eager to talk to people and seemed a lot healthier and at least as happy as those in non touristy villages. I gather that the children are being given the choice of whether to wear the necklaces or not and a large percentage are choosing not to.
Is it exploitation? Depends how you define the word. I did not get the feeling that they felt that way.
There is a village somewhere of long neck women (having a senior moment but it may have been in Burma rather than near MHS) where the women were taken out of their villages and were moved to be right near a hotel. Now THAT I do believe is exploitation and according to the guide I had at the time THEY were very unhappy.The village I went to near MHS had been a long neck village for a very long time so the people were living in the same place -- just living with more money.
I read the website Kim posted. Many People and NGOs I respect have a very different perspective. They believe that tourism is what is enabling many villagers to find a way to earn money WITHOUT resorting to drugs. In fact the best NGOS in thailand as well as the King and Queen's projects promote the villagers ability to make money via selling of crafts, creation of lodges, treking etc -- all a response to tourism.
Is it exploitation? Depends how you define the word. I did not get the feeling that they felt that way.
There is a village somewhere of long neck women (having a senior moment but it may have been in Burma rather than near MHS) where the women were taken out of their villages and were moved to be right near a hotel. Now THAT I do believe is exploitation and according to the guide I had at the time THEY were very unhappy.The village I went to near MHS had been a long neck village for a very long time so the people were living in the same place -- just living with more money.
I read the website Kim posted. Many People and NGOs I respect have a very different perspective. They believe that tourism is what is enabling many villagers to find a way to earn money WITHOUT resorting to drugs. In fact the best NGOS in thailand as well as the King and Queen's projects promote the villagers ability to make money via selling of crafts, creation of lodges, treking etc -- all a response to tourism.
Apr 2nd, 2008, 06:15 PM
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I guess I posted that because it addresses the impact tourism can have. Whether it is positive or negative is subjective...our view, their view, tour operator's view. I think it makes good sense to tread lightly. Hill tribes that depend on tourists may find that tourists no longer visit in the great numbers as before when word gets out that it's "too touristy and/or exploitive"...and then what do they have?
Apr 3rd, 2008, 12:06 PM
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My husband and I visited a karan tribe village a few hours outside of Mae Hong Son two years ago. We booked a tour through the Fern Resort Hotel to go up river and visit some villages. Our guide turned out to be a very gentle, informed and caring young artist from MHS who we are still in contact with. He explained to us many aspects of their lives and told us they were restricted in what they could do by the Thai government. But that their lives were better than if they were still across the border in Myanmar.
Because the people in the village were unable to seek gainful employment anywhere we felt good about being able to help them out by purchasing things that they made. I look on this as responsible tourism on our part and industry on theirs. They chose not to sit around and ask for handouts but to sell things.
We spent an hour or so as well in the local school and worked on some English lessons with the little ones.
I don't feel we exploited them in anyway. We felt honoured to have met them and hopefully pass on some ability to make ends meet with our tourist baht.
I even learned how to clean a wood floor with a coconut.
We just always remember to show respect and never take photos unless we ask first.
regards,
Because the people in the village were unable to seek gainful employment anywhere we felt good about being able to help them out by purchasing things that they made. I look on this as responsible tourism on our part and industry on theirs. They chose not to sit around and ask for handouts but to sell things.
We spent an hour or so as well in the local school and worked on some English lessons with the little ones.
I don't feel we exploited them in anyway. We felt honoured to have met them and hopefully pass on some ability to make ends meet with our tourist baht.
I even learned how to clean a wood floor with a coconut.
We just always remember to show respect and never take photos unless we ask first.
regards,
Apr 4th, 2008, 11:59 AM
#10
I may have been one of the ones Bob referred to who had interesting conversations with some of the women. The following is an excerpt from my trip report in 2006 that addresses this issue and tells of my own experience. (If you want to see the whole thing, type Karen and Julie in the search box.)
We started the next morning around 9 and headed first to the “long-neck” Karen village (I’ve forgotten the name, but it’s supposedly the largest one). Julie and I had discussed the ethical considerations – the exploitation issues, the “human zoo” aspect – and after some hand-wringing, we decided to go anyway. I’d seen the pictures in National Geographic as a child, and the impression they left was indelible. I just couldn’t pass up the chance to see these women in person – and better yet, to talk to them. The visit turned out to be a trip highlight.
Yes, it was touristy. Yes, you paid a fee to enter the village (sorry, I didn't write down how much). But the day we were there, we had the place nearly to ourselves (except for the villagers, of course), and it was amazing.
The first woman I saw wearing rings was at a stand selling souvenirs. I felt awkward - I wanted to stare, but I didn't want to stare. She smiled and beckoned us over. We looked at a few things she was selling, spoke to her briefly, and moved on - the reality of it still sinking in.
It was a beautiful morning, and the village had a busy feel to it. An older woman (no rings) was sorting and cutting vegetables. A few men were working on framing a new house. A man sat next to a baby (not quite walking age) who was jumping in a sling hanging from the ceiling (it looked very much like a jumper we hung in a doorway for Julie when she was a baby). I asked if it was his baby, and he smiled so broadly that the answer was obvious before he said yes. His wife (no rings) came over and I got a picture of the family.
The best part of the visit was our interaction with a woman (lots of rings) and her daughter at one of the stands. As we neared, she motioned to us and said, “Come, sit with me.” She asked where we were from, and I said we were Americans – mother and daughter. She wanted to know how old we were and told us she was 53. She said her daughter (also rings) was 12, the youngest of her five daughters.
She showed us some postcards for sale, and we noticed one was of HER and that she was playing a rough-hewn guitar. I asked if she played and she said yes – and turned her head slightly to the guitar, which was on a ledge behind her. I asked gently, softly (hesitantly) – as respectfully as I could – if she’d play for us. And she answered solemnly, “Yes.”
I felt moved and honored. After she’d played a bit, I asked if she sang and she said yes – and started singing. It was beautiful – a lilting, melodic ballad (not in English, of course). Both Julie and I were awestruck.
When she finished, she motioned for me to come closer, and pulled out some rings big enough to fit over a person's head. She put them on me. Then she draped a costume similar to her own dress over me and said, “Sit next to me, take picture.” Her daughter sat on the other side of me, and Julie got our photo. Then it was Julie’s turn and I captured the entire process in a series of pictures.
I was so taken with this woman’s face and gentle manner. I asked if she’d mind telling me about the rings – did they hurt her? And she said a little – more when she was younger than now. So I asked her daughter, and the girl nodded and said – somewhat reluctantly it seemed – yes a little. We couldn’t resist buying a few postcards and a couple of scarves. I was enchanted – yes, ok, it was touristy. But I felt a connection with this woman. It's one of my most compelling memories. (I can't wait for you to see the pictures of her - although it may take me awhile to get them posted.)
Julie’s bubbles were a hit. I don’t remember if I’ve mentioned it, but Julie brought bubbles and a bubble wand on the trip. When some village kids came over, she took them out and started blowing. And the kids – little ones – went wild, laughing and shrieking and trying to pop them. I don’t know if they’d ever seen bubbles before, but they certainly caught on quickly. As I think I’ve said before – some things are truly universal.
We left shortly thereafter, making our way back through the village – taking in the atmosphere, admiring the houses on stilts, enjoying the warmth and brightness of the sun, smiling at everyone we passed. It was one of those golden mornings – in every way. Our driver had made himself scarce during our visit so we were really on our own.
In spite of all the controversy, we enjoyed the village very much and have no regrets. The rings made me sad, the pain they cause made me sad, the fact that these women apparently feel compelled to wear the rings and choose to put them on their daughters primarily to attract tourist dollars made me sad. But on the flip side, the village was neater and more prosperous-looking than others we saw on the trip. So...hm. I mentioned that Asia touches the soul. It also pricks the conscience and, yes, pulls at the heart-strings. And for thinking, feeling, caring – but insulated – Westerners, it poses many ethical dilemmas. Ok, off my soapbox.
---
Ah - just as I remember it. I LOVED that trip!
Karen
We started the next morning around 9 and headed first to the “long-neck” Karen village (I’ve forgotten the name, but it’s supposedly the largest one). Julie and I had discussed the ethical considerations – the exploitation issues, the “human zoo” aspect – and after some hand-wringing, we decided to go anyway. I’d seen the pictures in National Geographic as a child, and the impression they left was indelible. I just couldn’t pass up the chance to see these women in person – and better yet, to talk to them. The visit turned out to be a trip highlight.
Yes, it was touristy. Yes, you paid a fee to enter the village (sorry, I didn't write down how much). But the day we were there, we had the place nearly to ourselves (except for the villagers, of course), and it was amazing.
The first woman I saw wearing rings was at a stand selling souvenirs. I felt awkward - I wanted to stare, but I didn't want to stare. She smiled and beckoned us over. We looked at a few things she was selling, spoke to her briefly, and moved on - the reality of it still sinking in.
It was a beautiful morning, and the village had a busy feel to it. An older woman (no rings) was sorting and cutting vegetables. A few men were working on framing a new house. A man sat next to a baby (not quite walking age) who was jumping in a sling hanging from the ceiling (it looked very much like a jumper we hung in a doorway for Julie when she was a baby). I asked if it was his baby, and he smiled so broadly that the answer was obvious before he said yes. His wife (no rings) came over and I got a picture of the family.
The best part of the visit was our interaction with a woman (lots of rings) and her daughter at one of the stands. As we neared, she motioned to us and said, “Come, sit with me.” She asked where we were from, and I said we were Americans – mother and daughter. She wanted to know how old we were and told us she was 53. She said her daughter (also rings) was 12, the youngest of her five daughters.
She showed us some postcards for sale, and we noticed one was of HER and that she was playing a rough-hewn guitar. I asked if she played and she said yes – and turned her head slightly to the guitar, which was on a ledge behind her. I asked gently, softly (hesitantly) – as respectfully as I could – if she’d play for us. And she answered solemnly, “Yes.”
I felt moved and honored. After she’d played a bit, I asked if she sang and she said yes – and started singing. It was beautiful – a lilting, melodic ballad (not in English, of course). Both Julie and I were awestruck.
When she finished, she motioned for me to come closer, and pulled out some rings big enough to fit over a person's head. She put them on me. Then she draped a costume similar to her own dress over me and said, “Sit next to me, take picture.” Her daughter sat on the other side of me, and Julie got our photo. Then it was Julie’s turn and I captured the entire process in a series of pictures.
I was so taken with this woman’s face and gentle manner. I asked if she’d mind telling me about the rings – did they hurt her? And she said a little – more when she was younger than now. So I asked her daughter, and the girl nodded and said – somewhat reluctantly it seemed – yes a little. We couldn’t resist buying a few postcards and a couple of scarves. I was enchanted – yes, ok, it was touristy. But I felt a connection with this woman. It's one of my most compelling memories. (I can't wait for you to see the pictures of her - although it may take me awhile to get them posted.)
Julie’s bubbles were a hit. I don’t remember if I’ve mentioned it, but Julie brought bubbles and a bubble wand on the trip. When some village kids came over, she took them out and started blowing. And the kids – little ones – went wild, laughing and shrieking and trying to pop them. I don’t know if they’d ever seen bubbles before, but they certainly caught on quickly. As I think I’ve said before – some things are truly universal.
We left shortly thereafter, making our way back through the village – taking in the atmosphere, admiring the houses on stilts, enjoying the warmth and brightness of the sun, smiling at everyone we passed. It was one of those golden mornings – in every way. Our driver had made himself scarce during our visit so we were really on our own.
In spite of all the controversy, we enjoyed the village very much and have no regrets. The rings made me sad, the pain they cause made me sad, the fact that these women apparently feel compelled to wear the rings and choose to put them on their daughters primarily to attract tourist dollars made me sad. But on the flip side, the village was neater and more prosperous-looking than others we saw on the trip. So...hm. I mentioned that Asia touches the soul. It also pricks the conscience and, yes, pulls at the heart-strings. And for thinking, feeling, caring – but insulated – Westerners, it poses many ethical dilemmas. Ok, off my soapbox.
---
Ah - just as I remember it. I LOVED that trip!
Karen
Apr 4th, 2008, 02:10 PM
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Nice excerpt Karen. I came away from the village I visited with similar feelings. I was wowed by the young lady with whom I spoke, and her ability to carry on a conversation in five different languages (her native language, Thai, English, French and Italian).
As she put it, she was happier being in the village where all she had to do was chat, than she would have been if she had to work in the rice fields.
As she put it, she was happier being in the village where all she had to do was chat, than she would have been if she had to work in the rice fields.
