Lora

Hi all,<BR>Has anyone encountered the long neck women in Thailand. I have heard they are facinating but would like to hear your experience and how or where I can see them. <BR>thanks, Lora

Jim

I know of the Padaung women...but that's in Burma. Some enterprising entrepreneur at Inle Lake was selling glimpses of a couple of these women for $2.00USA. I didn't bite. You might do a google search. I'm certain you'll come up with some leads.

Tangata

There are tours and treks out of Chiangmai that visit some villages of the long necked women. As Jim says they are Pandong women and inhabit the border areas. <BR><BR>www.thailandpreview.com/btstravel is the web site of one company that arranges visits.

Jen

I have heard that the only reason these women are still being disfigured is to make money off tourists. Don't support it.

Joe

Hi Lora - We were in Mae Hong Son last November for a few days, and a part of our trip there included a visit to the &quot;hill tribes&quot; in northern Thailand. Included in this, predominantly, was a visit to the Burmese refugee camp of the Karen long necked women. If I understand this correctly, the Karen women were a part of the aristocracy (?) of northern Burma from waaaay back. They are now officially considered political refugees from Burma, and as such are supported by the UN, and allowed to live in Thailand, just a few kilometers from the border. The two sides of their story, one as indicated by Jen, is that the only reason they still put rings on their necks is for the tourists. The other, which I lean towards, is that they are still a proud and regal people, and are still fighting to go back to Burma. (I know this last comment for a fact) In our visit to one of their villages, I never felt as if I were in Disneyland, rather, it was one of the more interesting parts of our trip to Thailand. It was a question with my wife initally if we wanted to go see them as I have heard the same arguement about they only do it for the tourists, blah, blah blah. However, one of their main ways for income now, is the fee charged to tourists to go to their villages, along with the sale of trinkets in the villages, as I don't think they can own land. In retrospect, I am glad we went, and would recommend it to anyone who asked me. It WAS a facinating experience... I would ask Jen, and others if the Masai of eastern Africa still mutilate thier ears for the tourists, or if they do it because it is their culture? It is like that for any indigenous culture. IF after awhile they remain true to themselves, and don't change to fit a &quot;western&quot; expectation, are they still doing it only for the tourists? Realistically, their arne't that many tourists who get there anyway, so it is my opinion they aren't doing it for us, especially if one were to see the conditions in which they live. By the way the best way to see them is to go to Mae Hong Son...

Lora

Thank you everyone for you insight. I think we are going to leave it up to chance and if we see them great and if not sobeit. <BR>regards...

eddy

Jen,<BR>Isnt it presumptous to think that the Karen women &quot;disfigure&quot; themselves for your tourist dollar? They have been doing it for centuries long before they have heard of commercialism.Just because a cultural practice seems painful or wrong to you doesnt mean it is wrong to them. While they earn tourist dollars to feed their children, they probably cannot understand why modern women subject themselves to modern day tortures such as waxing, body piercing, chest-constricting push-up bras,crack-chaffing g-strings, starving and wearing calf cramping, ankle twisting 6&quot; heels just to look &quot;good&quot;.

Ingrid

Lora:<BR><BR>I was fortunate enough to have visited the Karen long-necked women refugee camp in November. It was fabulous!!<BR>The women are soo beautiful and the rings soo shiny. We spent a great deal of time speaking with them, visiting their church, their school and houses.<BR>The women speak great English as well.<BR><BR>Yes, they use the rings as a way to attract tourists, but it's nothing they wouldn't do as part of their culture. <BR>Only 1,200 tourists visit them a year! I don't think they would place all those rings around their necks just for 1,200 people a year.<BR><BR>I bought some neck rings from them and we donated a great deal of money to their war effort against Burma.<BR><BR>They want to be free from Burma, and should be allowed to do this.<BR><BR>I highly recommend you see them! We were the only tourists there, and were lucky enough to be able to visit their homes and way of life.<BR><BR>Ingrid <BR><BR>

KellyF

The &quot;political refugee&quot; is totally false propoganda. The practice of forcing women to wear the rings was legally banned over twenty years ago, and for two whole decades the women BY CHOICE stopped wearing them altogether. However, some enterprising businessmen in Thailand offered the people food subsidies and free homes if the women would wear their rings, in order to attract tourists. Many did move there because they were poor, and the ONLY reason they wear these rings is to attract the tourists. To claim that supporting this industry allows these women a lifestyle they might otherwise not have is akin to supporting child prostitution or labor - the people are poor enough to let themselves be exploited, but that doesn't make it okay.<BR><BR>And to anyone who compares this to wearing high heels, let me point this out: high heels do not wreck the human anatomy to the point that if I took my heels off, my neck would collapse and I would suffocate to death.<BR><BR>There are many, many reputable references which outline the reinstitution of ring-wearing to attract tourist dollars; start, for example, with the award-winning &quot;Moon Travel Handbook&quot; to Thailand - a book noone would claim fails to respect the local traditions.

Airlawgirl

Kelly-you need to do some more research on the long-necked Karen. It is a fallacy that their necks collapse if they take the rings off-in fact, when I was there in Jan., we asked a number of women that very question, and they said no-they frequently take them off at night (or when the tourists aren't around!) and showed me pictures of themselves, with their rings off. The rings do, however, push their collar bones down, so that there is a visible deformity, but by no means life threatening.

KellyF

Airlawgirl -<BR><BR>Maybe you're right, but I'll stick with my sources. I did do more research, and found that all the references which claim that the women do not suffocate are issued by tourism people - or are direct copies of those pieces - whereas the articles claiming that they do suffocate are issued by the likes of academics, Natl Geographic, etc. I also found an article written by a Thai doctor, explaining the necessity of supporting the head if a ringed woman should come to the hospital for some type of treatment which requires removing the coils.<BR><BR>It was really amazing - and a bit sickening - though to see all the tourism-based articles which claim that a girl/ woman only experiences a few minutes of discomfort... compared with other articles which say that it can last for some time, and that the women need to have the coils removed (with another neck support in place) from time to time.<BR><BR>You say you saw pictures of them with their rings off - how old were they in the pictures? It takes many years to deplete the neck muscles to the point that they will no longer support the head.<BR><BR>In a way, though, I guess this comes down to philosophy. These women will never even see their own children nursing. In your own defense of this practice, you claim that it &quot;only&quot; results in a non-life-threatening deformity. If that's the best spin you can put on it, then I guess that's all I need to know.

Airlawgirl

Kelly-<BR>The words &quot;only&quot; are your words-not mine-and I choose not to &quot;spin&quot; at all--unlike you-who apparently have never been to their villages, seen them, or talked to them. -I am merely providing my own empirical evidence, and again, you need to check your sources -concerning the breast feeding bit- I spoke at length with an 8 mo. pregnant woman, 22yrs. of age, who told me, upon my questioning, that she had every intention of breast feeding. And the pictures of the women I saw w/o rings? One was of an elderly woman-a picture of the woman who was standing in front of me. <BR><BR>And Kelly-you know, I'm not attacking your position-I'm merely saying that before you take this adamant P.C. stance on what you believe to be the horribles of these women being forced to wear these rings-nothing could be further from the truth- by the way, -you need to check out the evidence first hand.

KellyF

I don't feel I'm taking an adamant P.C. stance. In fact, I was very interested to go see them myself, see how they live, talk to them, etc. But as a responsible traveler, I felt it was important to investigate first. Again, I did find conflicting reports, but the ones which I found most reliable and objective portrayed it as something which I would rather not support. Realize that the women themselves are paid by tour operators, who pay some women more than others, depending on their presentation. They have every incentive to be pleasant, interesting, and exotic for the tourists.<BR><BR>I understand that reasonable people can evaluate the evidence and come to different conclusions; I think it's legitimate to add my own to this forum. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

sarahjonn

Lora, You might want to read:<BR>From the Land of Green Ghosts written by Pascal Khoo Thwe, A Burmese man who grew up as a member of the Padaung tribe.<BR>He escaped from the country during the revolution, went on to study English at Cambridge University. He is now living in London

IngridG

Hi guys!<BR><BR>I respect everyone's view, but I had to interject my own on this one.<BR><BR>Personally, we spent a great deal of time with these women and they seemed perfectly okay with the rings. Not all of them wear them - just a few.<BR><BR>Also, they took them off for us to see. I even had a few coils wrapped around my neck to see what it was like. <BR>They use coils of brass - not separate rings.<BR><BR>The tradition of wearing the rings has been around for a while, so they take something they have always done in their culture - and use it to attract some tourist dollars - BUT hardly any tourists make it there. <BR><BR>They only see approx. 1,200 tourists a year. <BR><BR>I don't think they would go through the trouble of wearing rings just for the benefit of a few tourists. They wear the rings because it's what they have always done.<BR><BR>They are refugees from Burma and they are not allowed to leave the village for longer than 24-hours. We saw the land mines and the security guarding this village - the threat is real.<BR><BR>They have to make a living by the trinkets they sell to the visitors who do reach them. <BR><BR>So, you are hurting them more by boycotting their culture and village - just because you don't approve of their lifestyle.<BR><BR>I am sure we do things here in the US that they think is brutal and grotesque...<BR><BR>The majority of the men in the village work the fields and are fighting a war (six miles away from the village) against the Burmese army. The men like to see their women with rings - they seem them as beautiful. They are gorgeous!<BR><BR>I also saw plenty of really old women with the rings, who were getting around fine - bending down, doing chores, etc.<BR><BR><BR>The Burmese are socialist and are not allowing these poor people to do what they want. They have been allowed to live on the border in Thailand, so the Thai government can help them fight their cause.<BR><BR>We donated a great deal of money to their war effort, because we believe people should be allowed to live where they choose.<BR><BR>Anyway, I am open to all cultures and their customs, even if I disagree with it.<BR><BR>Ingrid <BR><BR>

Pixy

I have just returned from Thailand,I visited the long neck women,apart from the fact that I found it all very touristy a doctor explained to us that its an optical illusion, the necks are the same as ours, the rings actually do not lift the necks but with their weight lower the soldiers doing absolutely no harm at all.