My intuition vs Sound advice

You have many romantic notions that must be satisifed. I wish you well that you achieve this. I hope you do not miss the serendipitious adventures while searching for the preconceived notions.

The one idea I would drop is to live like a local. That is also an idealized version that may satisfy your imgaination but not the reality.

Good luck.

Would you recommend a hotel over an apartment? Our idea of living like a local is just staying in an apartment buying some items (picnic fresh fruit from the market) and trying to be more independent. We will still indulge in restaurants and such

Sorry, I probably should have combined my last two post, I'm sorry if I broke protocol

These all seem to be things you can do w/o the input of others; eg, for Paris, just do it! I would only question a great steak and burger; whereas you can certainly find steak and burgers in Paris, I think you might be a bit disappointed since beef in France does taste different from US beef. You might better enjoy beef bourguignon or another dish where the beef has been cooked in wine,etc. (Or you may love the French steak or burger!) And with few exceptions you will find a wide selection of meat available in restaurants; it would be difficult, in fact, to find a place that only serves fish or seafood so that should be no problem for you. Lots of chicken, beef, pork, and other animals (such as rabbit) that you might want to try.

Good luck!

As to hotel vs apartment: do you think you will be ok w/o the availability of concierge or person at front desk to lend some help with directions, calling taxis, making recommendations, etc.? You would be absolutely fine w/o this; it's just how comfortable you are doing it on your own. I mention this only because first-timers are sometimes hesitant to do without the support that a hotel provides.

>>>Have a convo with as many people who are willing<<<

How's your Italian?

I really don't understand the choice of either Verona or Venice, but Venice seems to have more restaurants geared to seafood.

Why has Rome fallen out of the picture? For everything on your list (except maybe 3.: what is a convo?), it offers more possibilities than Venice or Verona.

I'd vote for going with your intuition, every time!

You are the only ones who really know what you want from this trip - if it's your first to Europe, then everything is going to be new and fascinating.

I'd also go for an apartment - even though locals will say you're not really living the 'local' life, it's the closest we travellers can get to the real thing.

Our apartment experiences have meant so much more than those of hotels; the fact that you need to shop for food etc puts you into spaces that you'd miss out on if you ate in restaurants all the time.

In European cities most people will be able to help you, even if you don't know the local language. Just learn to say 'hello' in their language, keep a smile on your face, and you'll find how helpful people can be.

My only word of caution would be to not try and fit in too many cities for this trip - hopefully there will be plenty more opportunities for travel in the future. You sound like the kind of people who want to take time to smell the roses, rather than tick off a list of 'iconic sites'. Di

I once read - and have come to fully agree - that the single most important thing you can take with you when you travel is your sense of humor. Sounds like you'll be taking plenty of that!

So my reaction is: Go for it! You seem to have a clearer sense of what you want to do and experience than many travelers, and the only way you'll know whether your trip can be what you want it to be is to try!

Will each place deliver? Maybe, maybe not. They've been major tourist destinations a very long time for good reasons, but not everyone appreciates them. It seems to me that the more one expects them to be something very specific, the greater the risk of disappointment; the more one allows oneself to experience them for what they are, the more able one is to enjoy them. Instead of asking whether a place will deliver, it might be helpful to ask how you'll feel if you don't find out for yourself.

As Adu suggested, however, the goal to "live like a local" may be best left where you are, in fact, local.

I haven't been to Verona yet. From my long-ago experience of Venice (which I adored!), I'm not sure it meets your image of an Italian city - you can definitely expect to get lost (!), but the cuisine is better known (I think) for fish and seafood than pasta or pizza and shopping has more to do with glass than leather. Florence might better match your image, and its artwork brought many welcome tears to my eyes. (But I was moved to tears by artwork in Venice and other cities, too! Maybe a few more tears, and few more raptures, in Florence. I'm glad this isn't a test!) Venice is definitely beautiful and unique and home to some stunning art works and a likely source of incredible memories, even if not of pasta or leather shops.

Hope that helps! I'm sure you'll have a wonderful trip - your attitudes are right on!

convo, is conversation, I think I spent too much time on facebook today. My fiance and I are enrolling in language claases, so we can at least master the basics and show respect as guests of such beautiful countries.

Zeppole actually recommended Verona and after some research it seems really romantic, and we get a more local experience. We are young and hope to visit Italy many times in the future. We would like to save Rome and the Amalfi coast for another trip. It's always great to have something to look forward too. Rome is a little more faced paced then say Venice, and towards the end of our trip we would like to relax, lounge, and savor

To grandmere, I was just making sure our expectations were realistic. If someone said they wanted to relax and take it easy in LA or NY I might be a little concerned.

I don't see that anything in your plans is impossible or unrealistic, but to squeeze everything into your time-frame is rushing yourself: you'll need a fairly clear list of priorities about which things could if necessary go on to the "save it for next time" list.

And personally, I don't see Jack the Ripper as fitting in to the overall romantic image; nor do I quite understand people's fascination with Harrods. But that's a matter of taste.

Kanvis, I like your style. You have things to do, but have not tied yourself down to absolute specifics, thus they can pretty much happen as they happen. As someone above wrote, you seem to be taking this all in with a good bit of humor and that is very important. As to the apartment idea, we essentially always use apartments, but then we also always travel off season (except for the annual Christmas trips).

No real suggestions, as your plans will work for any location

dave

ppen to prefer French beef to American. Hormone free and if cooked au point the taste to me is superior to US beef. Yes you do have to chew it it is not mushy like some US beef.The best burgers I have ever eaten have been in France and seem to be the latest craze in Paris in the last year or 2. But they are pricy compareded to US resto prices! A chain with always a line and the best sauce is Relais d'Entrecote. They have several places I am only familiar with the one on Rue St Benoit in the 6th. Robert and Louise is another noted for their grilled beef dishes.

If you have seafood allergies, Venice is a challenge. If you are planning on renting an apartment, that helps.

Verona isn't known for having the greatest pizza or pasta, but it is a wine town with lots of alternatives to eating fish and it is romantic to me. Verona also has good train connections, not only to Venice, but to Padova (where you could see if the Scrovegni chapel makes you cry), and to Bologna for great pasta, which can also buy fresh and take back to an apartment in Verona. There is plenty of great shopping in Verona for a purse or sandals, and if you don't like the selection, Milan is close. If it gets hot, zip up to Trento in the mountains and do some gelato tasting, or over to Lago di Garda. Take a boat to Bardolino for a glass of red wine or ice cream on the lake. For whimsy, check out the chamber of the giants in Mantova's Palazzo Te and a bike riding around town.

Were I looking to have a cry over art in Verona, I would quickly check into buying tickets to the outdoor opera in the Roman arena in Verona.

I think Verona is a pretty place to have as a home base, and you can explore many quarters of the city. For a week's stay though, you will probably want to be doing a number of day trips by train. If that begins to dampen your enthusiasm, then Venice itself might be better, or Padova, which makes it much easier to slip in and out of Venice, has practically no tourists, and you can easily visit Verona from there as well. Padova also has less seafood than Venice.

How serious is your seafood allergy? Have you got cross-contamination issues?

PS, Kanvis,

I wanted to add that I am a local in Italy and I disagree greatly with Aduchamp's post about aiming toward living like a local when you are here in Italy. Italian life is not so exotic that you can't be a participant very easily, even with language obstacles. The rhythms and customs of Italian life are public. People do spend a lot of time conversing at the market, enjoying coffee in an outdoor cafe and meals with whom they love, and they tend to do these things at very regular times. Many of the things that visitors enjoy doing -- shopping, strolling in the early evening, admiring the gorgeous buildings and being delighted at the sight of children playing or the sunset -- are the very things Italian also enjoy doing, quite openly. And yes, they will "convo" with you.

To deride this as "romantic" is to miss the point that Italy is one of the most romantic places in the world. To live like a local in Italy is to live romantically. Keep as a value when you come here.

Congrats on your trip I go a lot. Apartments seem great I have done them usually they are not scammers no elevator stairs no AC rodents old tine bathrooms go with an agency of repute franceby.com italyby.com or forget it never wire money to all the INDIVIDUAL scammers that tout on the boards vrbo craigslist airbnb in clever disguises.

In LON londontown.com Dolphin House IS a nice modern apartment complex or many nice hotels there. In Paris ihg.com Crowne Plaza Reppublique in a nice Haussmann building in a central area. In Venice www.bauervenezia.com my fav from 200 euro for me last www.otel.com

Economy is super bad in many places average locals do not live very well shrink your world and your budget by 50% that
is how the average Joe lives not sure I would want to spend my vacation doing that.

www.eurocheapo.com for more budget advice everywhere but
if you like upscale SF you will not like budget hotels in Europe most WAY to basic.

Happy Hunting!

The next bankruptcy candidate: Italy shocked the stock ... this year expected the gross domestic product ... the budget deficit by Shrink in 2014 to 0.2 percent of GDP.
economicsnewspaper.com/policy/...bankruptcy-candidate-italy-shaken

Folks are making the best of it but youth unemployment approaching 30% things are far from "romantic" for most families currently but they are a very spiritual people and are making the best of a bad situation the worst probably since WW2.

Thank you so much for all of the replies

The one thing that has gotten our family through some really tough times, is learning to have a sense of humor. I know that I cannot control most things, but I can control how i react to them. I choose to be positive and to take things in stride. Unpleasant things don't last forever and when they end you are usually better for it.

If we encounter some mishaps, they might be frustrating, but those are the stories you find yourself telling over and over again

To Zeppole, when I eat shellfish, or touch it I usually break out in hives and my tongue goes totally numb. Cross contamination might be an issue, but I have survived almost 30 years thus far, so here's hoping.

Where else could we go to find great pasta and pizza? One poster mentioned Tuscany, which we think is beautiful, but we don't drink wine, so viewing wineries in the area would be one thing we wouldn't include. We have been to napa, and found it beautiful, but we felt we missed something important, because we didn't get to taste the wine we learned about.

I'm worried that we will get a taste of Italy and wish we had more time. Paris is a must for us, but we are truly trying to figure out what else we should include. We were pretty set on Venice/Verona, but my fiance is determined to have great pasta and pizza. The italian food in our hometown is truly sad.

I still think Verona or Padova or even Venezia would be great hubs. My only concern is that we would have to keep taking trains out, and that might get hectic. Is there another hub we could use?

Zeppole, what do you think of Florence or maybe a Rome and Venice split instead of London. I hate to give up the city walks and such, but I'm willing to forgo London, if we can better achieve our goals.

I think you can well achieve what you are looking for, with the exception of a great steak - they tend to pan fry steaks here in Europe and unless you want to spend a lot of cash on a fancy steak restaurant in London you will likely be disappointed. I think burgers the same - we have just given up and enjoy these things when we go back to N. America (I think N. America does these things the best!).

As for days - book open jaw, flying into London and out of Italy to save back tracking. Looks like you have 14 days, so 12 on the ground? I would:

13 - fly
14 - land in London
15 - London
16 - London
17 - London
18 - London
19 - train in the morning to Paris
20 - Paris
21 - Paris
22 - Paris
23 - Paris
24 - Fly to Italy (Venice is maybe easier because it has an international airport?)
25 - Italy
26 - Italy
27 - Italy
28 - Italy
29 - fly home

In London if you want a more 'local' feel you could rent an apartment somewhere like Hampstead. It is a bit farther out, but on the tube network and has a really nice villagey feel. South Kensington is nice as well. For pub crawls you will have no problem - just do it. The Jack the Ripper tour is ok, but almost everything is gone and you just see parking lots etc where events happened. Also it is PACKED with tourists!
Try looking at www.walks.com to see things you like - they do a really good tour of Stonehenge and Salisbury thats affordable.

For a great English Breakfast - that's tough, but go to a pub that isnt in a super touristy location (avoid Leicester Sq/Soho/Covent Garden areas). For a great Sunday Lunch there are lots around, so closer to the time repost and I can make some recommendations.

As for Paris and Italy - all those things are very easily achieved. Its just up to you to make them happen!

Have fun!

Just reading your post - have you considered Bologna? Its a major food capital and you can do day trips to Parma, Modena, Ravenna to see the mosiacs there...?

I very much like your focus on kinds of experiences.

Not sure of your budget, but for your traditional Sunday roast in London, you might consider Simpson's In The Strand. I haven't been there for years now, but it is as traditional, and as historical, as it gets for such things. (Take a look at wikipedia.) Expensive, though. I don't have any grounds for comparing the quality of the food at Simpson's to elsewhere.

In Italy, I've only been to Rome and Venice . . . but I think you would love Venice for your purposes, as it is a perfect place to get lost in cobblestoned narrow passages, with no sound of traffic, and find yourself in hidden little squares. I found it particularly magical at night. My mental image of Venice before I went was canals; my mental image after going is narrow shadowy passages. For conversations in your beginner Italian, go across the lagoon to Murano and visit some of the glassblowing studios and pick up a piece or two as a souvenir.

Jamikins, I will research Bologna tonight and see what type of accommodations I can find, thank you.

I definitely want to buy some Murano glass, but how do I secure it to bring it home? Or do I ship it?

Simpson's In The Strand looks so delicious thank you for your suggestion.

I'm off to do more research

The best Sunday lunch we've found is at the Hawksmoor - its a steak restaurant that also does Sunday lunch and breakfasts:
http://thehawksmoor.com/breakfast-brunch-roasts

Pricey, but the best!

Oh another thing you might like is to do an Afternoon Tea in London. This is a website that gives you all the details and you can sort by price, region etc. http://www.afternoontea.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=1&Itemid=3

It describes the places and you can book online (highly recommended). Its something fun for an afternoon - but be sure you dont plan a big dinner as you usually get lots of sandwiches, cakes etc.

Enjoy!

ok, let's be practical. your Paris and London itineraries are both enough to fill a full week, and you want to squeeze all that AND Venice and Verona into a 16 night [if my maths if right] stay.

if you are determined, I'd suggest this:

Fly into Venice - stay 5 nights [gives you 4 days] relax Day 1, Verona Day 2, sightsee day 3, Day 4 - Verona again if you like, or sightseeing if you prefer.

Day 6 - fly to Paris - stay 6 nights. gives you 5 days.

Day 11 - eurostar train to London. stay 5 nights. if you get an early train, that's 4 1/2 days.

When you say you have a seafood "allergy" is this a true allergy or an intolerance? and are we talking just shellfish or white fish as well? in Venice there is plenty of ordinary white fish and meat - my son is a big meat-eater and he was very happy in venice.

but if you have a true allergy your life might be easier in an apartment - that goes for all of your destinations.

Sorry, also meant to add - its very easy to get crappy pub food/sunday lunches in London. Avoid touristy places like Garfunkels and do some research up front if food is important to you. It doesnt have to be expensive, but if you know where to get good lunches on the go (Pret, Eat, Tortilla, Itzu etc) or where to head to for dinner I think you will enjoy yourself more. For us food is super important so I always do a lot of research on that

www.toptable.co.uk is another tool for looking up food and making reservations! You can search by 'Best for' and you get lots of selections!

ok - one more place if you are a foodie is to hit Borough Market at London Bridge. It is open Thurs - Sat during the day, but if you want to go visit it on Thurs of Fri for lunch. It is ridiculously busy on Sat so much so thats its not enjoyable because there are too many people.

You will find a trader there that does the best grilled cheese sandwiches and raclette! http://www.boroughmarket.org.uk/

Kanvis, I bought a set of glasses and a carafe on Murano, and they packed them up securely for me in a box. I carried them home with no problems and use them daily with great pleasure. You can also get lovely jewelry made of Murano glass -- no transport issues there!

Kanvis,

First of all, it is usually possible, in any Italian city, to find wonderful pasta dishes and a favorite local pizzeria, but you need to do research and ask the locals, and even then, Venice is tough. Naples and Rome are the prize destinations for pizza, but Naples isn't close to what you say you want in other respects and you've already taken Rome out of this trip. For pasta, Bologna is tops (especially if you want to learn to make it) and the city has a lot to offer as a "hub", but I don't think it offers the same obvious romance as Verona or Venice usually do for visitors.

Regarding shellfish, 80 percent of the restaurants in Venice serve fish and shellfish. A great many people with your allergies go to Venice, carrying cards that tell the waiters in Italian of the problem, and people eat safely. Some of the few restaurants that don't serve fish have nice reputations. My hesitation to simply encourage you to go to Venice is that you have put so much emphasis on local life that I worry that once you get to Venice in summer, and discover it is overwhelmed with tourists -- the ratio of tourist to local in Venice is easily 15,000 to 1 in summer -- you might feel frustrated.

There is no way to go to Italy for the first time, even for a month, and not feel that you have only scratched the surface, so you just have to live with that. I can understand your pulling back at the though of doing lots of daytrips-- it is time consuming to walk to the train station, wait for the train, travel for an hour, have yet another walk to the sights, remember to get back in time to catch a good train home. Can cut into the romance. Still, if you want more local life than Venice, Padova might really suit all your needs.

Padova is a very short train ride into Venice and is filled with history and charm of its own. A great food market, cafes, walks, and places to explore. It less than an hour to Verona if you get curious. And if you are serious about wanting to learn to make pasta, I highly recommend taking a class there. Bologna is also a great shopping town (as is Verona).

I'm not recommending this place, just showing it to you.

http://www.padovaresidence.it/Isabella/isabella_ingl.htm

http://www.tripadvisor.in/Hotel_Review-g187867-d1817458-Reviews-PadovaResidence-Padua_Province_of_Padua_Veneto.html

As for pizza, if you are ruling out southern Italy for this trip, ask the locals for a recommendation wherever you go, but your fiance needs to be prepared for a few things: Even if you were to go to Naples or Rome, she might find that she doesn't like real Italian pizza. It is actually quite different from even the best American pizza. Secondly, pizza is extremely subjective, and Italians outside of Naples often like (and recommend) pizza that suits their local taste -- sort of like the way some people like Tex-Mex, or bagels with blueberries. Also, don't be surprised if the locals tell you the best local pizza is actually out of town, in some blah suburb. Up to you if want to take a bus there.

But in the end, not only is every place you are likely to go in Italy very rewarding -- so don't overstress it -- it is always easy to take a bus or quick train ride into a completely different environment. Itally is quite jammed up with variety that way.

Kudos to you--planning ahead, noted sense of humor, teachable spirit (always a plus imho!), and fairly clear ideas of wants.

I haven't been to Paris or anywhere in Italy but Rome so can't comment on specifics in those places. Hubby and I have spent 2 2-week stints in England (and I've been there with students twice) so will only comment on that behalf.

1.It's your trip; do what you want. Three COUNTRIES in your time frame, with time needed/used up traveling and re-settling, will certainly eat up a lot of your time. If you want to do all 3, then it obviously can be done. But maybe consider just 2? You MIGHT find it easier/cheaper to find flats if you are staying a bit longer in each, but with research (and you have time) you probably could find flats in all 3 places.

2.London is huge and it takes time to get from place to place but as you have a seemingly non-packed itinerary, that will be ok.

3.You don't sound like the kind that "need" tours; with the time you have to research, you could design your own walking tours and not be confined to the group. I have heard almost universal good things about LondonWalks, if you really want to, but almost universal bad things about any Ripper walks. Just a comment. With maps and all the guidebooks/other resources at hand, in print and internet, you can find your way around London at your pace meeting your interests--for price of shoe leather and maybe a bit of Tube or bus fare. When you say a city walk tour of the city, that won't take you all over, you realize. The City of London is confined to certain boundaries; the "city" of London is far too large to walk in a day. The typical sites you'd see are not all IN the City. Just terminology.

4.Also, you don't have to use a tour guide to get to Stonehenge. Take a train to Salisbury, catch a tourbus that stops at the station to get to Stonehenge (with audio guide on bus) and back. Salisbury Cathedral is lovely, too (and has best copy of Magna Carta of the 3 I've seen.)

5. Please don't skip a couple pay-for places in London--you "must" (ha, there really isn't any must for anyone) see the Tower of London. And I think it would be a shame to be there and not go inside either Westminster Abbey or St. Paul's.

6.Borough Market (Thurs thru Sat) is wonderful for foods.

7. If you are interested in reading trip reports, you can click on my name and scroll down to the Trip Report section; there's one on our 2008 14-day stay in London with 5 day trips (one to Salisbury/Stonehenge) and one on our 2010 trip with 4 days in London before a 9 day drive around England. Might get some ideas. I packed our days much, much fuller than you are wanting to, but you might glean something.

Blessings on your plannings!

Sorry, Kanvis, I made a typo in my post. I meant to write:

Padova is a very short train ride into Venice (30 mins.) and is filled with history and charm of its own. .... And if you are serious about wanting to learn to make pasta, I highly recommend taking a class in BOLOGNA. . Bologna is also a great shopping town (as is Verona)."

I don't think you should take a pasta class in Padova.

My input :

Londonwalks - excellent walks geared to all interests
definately do tea - so much fun
Some people scorn the Hop On/Hop off Bus - I thought it was great. I took it when I got a bit tired and I could see the city from a different angle. I also used it to get to one place or another - toured and then "hopped" on for the next destination. Mostly good commentary. I would also recommend Tower of London - go early and leave lots of time - crowds!

Agree with being in line at the Tower of London when it opens. Also instead of taking the Yeoman tour first, go see the Crown Jewels. My mom and I were one of only two groups there and we got to go past the crown jewels twice and get have a nice Yeoman answer all our questions.

I'd also recommend Paris Walks while in Paris. I've taken two walks and loved both.

I thought that Florence was the closest thing to San Francisco I had ever seen. Narrow cobblestone streets for walking aimlessly. Wonderful food and gelato! Art and buildings that will make you cry- all things Michelangelo, the Duomo, the Baptistry door, Santa Reparata, the entire Uffizi...Bring tons of money for the Italian leather goods!

You have a ton of ideas. If I were you, I would keep my plans fluid. It sounds like a fabulous experience just by your enthusiasm alone. Keep your lists but allow the time to just experience. I tend to overplan and then I get to a place and realize that the beauty of a location is one's experience not the amount done. Of course I come home and wish I had done this or that, but ultimately whatever I have experienced has been wonderful. You have chosen 3 enormously rich countries. You seem to have good company . I would just narrow the scope of this trip and focus on the "experiences" you listed in your very first post and go with it.

I really like your plan and agree with fleur64 that it will be important to experience these wonderful locations in addition to following your preconceived list. That means spending a reasonable amount of time in each of your locations. For that reason, I suggest limiting your destinations to London and Paris or, as you describe in your other thread (Eloping in Italy), to Italy.

It is a bit difficult to provide guidance when there are two totally different trips being discussed at the same time. Which are you planning on?

>>>>I thought that Florence was the closest thing to San Francisco I had ever seen.<<<

Not knowing where else the poster has been, it is unarguably true, but don't come to Florence expecting to see anything remotely resembling San Francisco . In a certain sense, all consumer districts these days look alike. (?) But the Florentine Renaissance is not exactly what pops to mind when one thinks of San Francisco.

Just as an aside, San Francisco was very largely built by Genovese and Livornese immigrants (stonemasons, bankers, shippers, cable car engineers and anchovy fisherman). Some aspect of Genova actually do resemble San Francisco, even moreso before the Embarcadero freeway was torn down.

If you want to do those things in Paris, you can mostly do them, but not sure why finding the best burger in Paris would be a goal of a trip to Paris. FYI, not many apartments in Paris have balconies that you can stand on.

I like your ideas with a few changes. Delete the idea of ordering hamburgers in Europe. It sure doesn't go with your desire to live like a local.
Also, look at the itinerary for the Harry Potter Tours in London, and then go to some of those sites by yourselves. I did it with my grandkids and it was easy and fun.

Joel Robuchon used to, and perhaps still does, serve burgers at his restaurant in Paris. Granted, they were haute burgers topped with foie gras, served on a hand-made mini- baguette, but Kanvis is looking for the best in Paris, and haute cuisine, open to new ideas and done wit, is something Parisians like to do.

Actually, there's been a burger explosion in Paris in recent years, including a burger food truck (maybe the first food truck ever in Paris). I can't offer any reviews because I don't like French beef and a burger is the last thing I'd be looking for in Paris, but if you google "best burger Paris" you'll see recommendations for lots of places.

The daughter of a French friend of mine who came to stay with us for 2 months last year was constantly eating burgers at various places around where we live and comparing them to the burger joints she and her French friends went to in Paris. Her (rightful, IMO) conclusion was that burgers here are superior, but that was to be expected - I don't think they serve milkshakes with burgers in Paris the way they do here.

Hey there,

i completely agree with the timeline stated above...4...4...4 days n each and also think Venice will be lovely, and if you stay in the dosodoro or santa croce area it will seem a bit more like living like a local.

We stayed here in Venice which was very nice.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187870-d556857-Reviews-Ca_Bonvicini-Venice_Veneto.html

the area was lovely and i think they have one room with a balcony

Walking around venice early morning is absolutely lovely one of my fondest memories. I have been twice and really liked it, if you venture away from the main cental poins (but stayin on the island|) it can be surprisingly quiet and gorgeous little canals with not a sole on the. It really is lovely.

As you are going to Paris i would say, its definietly worth seeing London on this trip as it is so close and easy to get to. If you love italy then you can always come back and do a big trip just to Italy. It will be harder for you to come back to London unless you want to go to rest of UK too and by sounds of it it seems like you are more likley to come back to Italy first.

if you do go, you shoud definitely go here

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187870-d696615-r99305423-Al_Nono_Risorto-Venice_Veneto.html

that is my review entitled "best pizza ever". We often revisit this place in our discussions as the pizza was so so good.

this place in venice looks like a great location away from crowds and with terrace

http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p365199

I would set San Francisco aside and simply judge wherever you choose on its own merits. I have been to SF over a dozen times and like it very much, but I have not seen a city like it in France or Italy. And that is just fine.

I live in the largest American city and when I hear people want to meet and live like locals, I often ask them if will they pick up my dry cleaning and go to the dentist for me.

Enjoy every place. I have not been to Verona but you really must go out of your way not to have a good time in all the other places.

I have an opinion on your decision about Venice or Verona. I have been to both, and I recommend Verona. You will find wonderful restaurants for pasta and pizza, several places for gelato, and lots of strolling the shops for purses, etc...There is an airport there as well. When we went to Verona we flew from the US to Venice first, and took the train to Verona, but once we had finished our stay in Verona, we flew from Verona on to Munich. The only thing on your list that I'm not sure you'll find in Verona is someplace to learn how to make pasta. There may be some place that has cooking lessons, but that's not something I did while there.

I've been to London and thoroughly enjoyed myself, and did several of the things on your list, but I've never explored Paris. You may want to reconsider keeping Harrods on your London list. My teenage daughter really wanted to go, and after taking escalators, and strolling around, it felt a bit like strolling through a Macy's here in the US, with a few exceptions. I wouldn't waste my time in London on going there. There are so many great museums and other sites to see that would far outweigh shopping in Harrods. All the best with your travel plans!

Everything you have on your list is doable - although you may find that some of them are very expensive (shopping in europe is way more expensive than in the US).

If neither of you can or will eat fish/seafood I might substitute someplace else for Venice - since a lot of the food there is seafood/fish based.

Also - not sure about having many conversations with locals. You will certainly be able to talk to shopkeepers etc - but even with an apartment rathr than a hotel - becoming friends with locals may not be as easy as you imagine.

Also - I would google for more info on some of those tours - they are incredibly commercial (with huge crowds following one guide) and not really conducive to anything "romantic". Esp the Jack the Ripper tour is a big loser - very gruesome - and you don;t actually see aything - since all of the places are gone.

Given when you are planning to go, Venice will be more enjoyable than it would be during the summer. Although, if you end up anywhere in Italy during Easter, it will be crazy. I don't think you can go wrong with staying in either Venice or Verona (and you can easily do a day trip to Venice from there). It'll be harder to find really good food in Venice (our best meal there was Middle Eastern), but it's unlike any other place on earth, so there's that. Having been to Venice a couple of times, I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to visit again given many other unseen places in Italy, but it is the kind of place one should see in their lifetime, so if you do decide on Verona, try to take a day trip there. Since you still have time for research, take another look at Rome. Personally, I'd choose Rome over London, but if you have never been, London is definitely worth the trip. I think you should just go with your gut -- you've got terrific destinations on the agenda -- just be sure to give them enough time. At least 5 days each if you can. Good luck!

My two cents: YES, secure apartments in all three cities. Less expensive, more room, more opportunity for all the romantic cooking, balcony-sitting and wine sipping you wish to do. Now you can even get them for less than a week. We'll be in Venice in July for only 2 nights and had no problem getting an apartment.

I DO think you need to include Venice in a romantic trip, but I don't think you need a week. 3 days is enough. But if you base your week in Venice you can day trip out to Padua or Verona. Also, take a look at Burano while in Venice.

Since you seem to really want to experience food and cooking, you might want to dump a couple of days planned for London and add them to Paris. The markets, walking, museums and ambiance will keep you entertained for as long as you wish. Also, looking at Museums, don't forget Nissom de Commando for a really special treat.

Add a play to your time in London and combine your time shopping at Harrod's with tea there. They have a really lovely afternoon tea, but make reservations.

With your sense of whimsy you are going to have a glorious trip!! Keep us posted.

I was born in NYC and to date have spent the majority of my adult life living there, and fellow New Yorkers in this thread seem not to grasp the sociability of other capital cities, the investment in conversation and shared public space. It is fair to say that a great many people living in European capitals live there precisely for the conversation and the public life, while a great many people in New York seek isolation.

It also has something to do with personality. Before I moved to Europe, I had many European friends, and when they asked me for advice about upcoming trips in New York, they didn't want to eat at Ruby Foo's and they didn't want to go to the Rainbow Room or do the Sex in the City Tours. They wanted to see New York as New Yorkers see it. When they were my guests, I took them to a cafe I know in Riverside Park, not Central Park, I urged them to visit the Brooklyn or Queens, depending on their interests, not just Manhattan. I gave them the locations of my favorite food cart and suggested on a nice day that they picnic on the steps of the New York Public Library or any office building handy.

Young people often do make friends when they travel. While my experience of Spanish and French culture is that it is rare for "locals" to invite into their lives, the British are extremely chatty and the Italians all but adopt you, especially if you ask them for help in learning about their country and their culture. They'll show you around, drive you places they love, cook for you.

I've noticed before that a fair number of Fodor's Europe posters are "experienced" travelers because they are photorgraphers -- which is already distances you from being in contact with people directly -- or because they regularly had to travel for business for year. And of course some are just committed tourists of the Big Sights. But that isn't all travel is. A lot of us traveled abroad and talked to people to find out about their culture. We didn't hide behind our cameras or guidebooks. We sat down in cafes way off the beaten path and discovered that people in Europe aren't afraid to talk to strangers. They actually are quite relaxed about it. It's a normal thing to do. It's not New York.

Keep Harrods on your list - I found the food hall absolutely captivating, and the stairways between the floors are quite stupendous. Also make sure you visit the Ladies Toilets . . . (I won't spoil the surprise!) Di

Wow, you guys have all been so incredibly thoughtful. I feel like I should split our European dreams into two trips, here's why:

I would love to really visit Bologna, Padova, Verona, Venice, Tuscany, and Siena. There is absolutely no way we can even begin to appreciate these wonderful places, even if we only go to Paris. I think traveling through Europe is a trip deserving 2-3 weeks with lots of stops in each place. Unfortunately, we want to park it in two to three areas and slowly explore.

We picked Paris, because we found an apartment near the Eiffel tower (with a balcony and direct view of the Eiffel) and we just think it will make the perfect place for us to recite our vows to each other. London, is somewhere my fiance has always wanted to go, and the fact that one can easily and independently traverse the city is a plus.

I think Venice is like a well earned reprieve after Rome and some of the big cities in Italy. I'm ok with leaving it to look forward to. Everyone always says plan like you will come back, so we will.

A couple of questions? Are there any places close to Paris we could explore? Any areas near London? Any places we might visit after London (as it is quite expensive and we may not be able to afford a week)? Prague?

Again, thank you I am humbled by your generosity

Also, how many days do you think we should spend in each city?

I'm afraid I don't understand: you've decided on Venice instead of Bologna and the whole list of other places or instead of Rome? That's fine, but you should know there are areas of Rome that are like villages and no more fast-paced than Venice: Trastevere, Monti, even the historic center, although it has a higher concentration of tourists. In Venice, though, the cooking is heavily seafood and fish oriented, relies as much on risotto as on pasta and only knows pizza as a fairly recent inport,while there are two kinds local to Rome, one of which - pizza al taglio - is found nowhere else. Besides, three of the seven items of your honeymoon bucket list of less than two weeks ago can only be done in Rome. And since you mention costs for the first time, Rome is also cheaper.

How does Prague come into it? You haven't mentioned it before. You have 15 days on the ground: split it into five days each in London, Paris and a city in Italy. If five days in London is too expensive, take days from London and give them to the other two.

You have over a year to plan. You might want to sit down and think about what you *really* want to do and then come back and ask how you can realistically do it. If you also give a budget, it helps to determine whether something is realistic or not.

Zerlina, thank you for your response, but I think you misunderstood my post. We decided to make two trips instead of one. Our first trip will be 2 weeks in London and Paris and our second trip will be 2-3 weeks in Italy.

Ok, thats a reasonable thing to do, but I dont understand Prague in the mix.

London can be affordable. Rent an apartment and cook dinners and breakfast in. Lunches are easy to find, there are great take away sandwich shops where locals buy their lunch every day that sell sandwiches, salads, soup sushi, burritos etc for around £5-7. Almost all museums in London are free. Using a travel card from National Rail will get you 2for1 on alot of popular attractions. www.daysoutguide.co.uk

As for what you can see around London - Windor, Hampton Court, Canterbury, Oxford, Cambridge, York, Brighton, Salisbury/Stonehenge, Bath just to name a few are all doable as a day trip on the trains. Check out www.walks.com for their day trips which are very affordable and fun. They also do great 2 hour walking tours for £8 each.

Another market that mostly locals go to is open Mon - Fri at White Cross Street - the market traders sell mostly ethnic foods and I go there with my colleagues maybe once a week to get lunch. Its definitely off the tourist trail. Some of the pubs in the area will let you bring in your food and have a pint so thats another way to save some cash, but also get the pub experience. http://www.whitecrossstreet.co.uk/

Yes, I clearly did misunderstand, but rereading your post didn't make your new plan seem any clearer to me.

I still don't see how Prague comes into the new plan, and I don't think it's realistic: it's pretty far from both London and Paris, and it's not an inexpensive destination. If cost is an issue, move outside either capital city for a few days.

I think your right Zerlina We will just do 1 week Paris and 1 week London with some day trips. Should we split days evenly or stay more days in one place or the other?

Most apartments rent by the week sat - sat, and both places are worthy of a week each so thats what I would do. It will allow you to really get to know each place.

Dont forget to book your eurostar tickets for the train as far in advance as possible (I think its 120 days) at www.eurostar.com

Jamikins, do you recommend the London Pass?

Kanvis,

I didn't have any trouble understanding your post. When you get around to planning your trip to italy, be aware that you are going to be put under a LOT of pressure to go to Rome and Venice, and not just on message boards. I just got back from my fourth trip to Rome, so plainly I like it, but plainly a lot of people want a different introduction to Italy. Sure it is possible to find corners of Rome as quiet as truly quiet cities in italy -- but then again, you can also find good pizza if you know where to look for it -- including pizza al taglio -- outside of Rome.

I heartily encourage you to keep following your own intuitions about what kind of travel in Europe you would enjoy. Since you haven't been here yet, you are likely to imagine some things are possible or enjoyable that are not -- but you obviously already knew that, and that's why you came here to ask. Some people around here are permanently short-tempered and talk like they've right to snap their fingers and tell you to move on, as if you were in their way. But you can also see .that others don't mind how many times you change your mind or lightbulb a new idea.

I think your interest in dialogue as an approach is great. Really fantastic. And I also think it is fantastic you are not yet so invested in a plan on paper you aren't afraid to rip it up when it doesn't strike you as right.

Be creative. A lot of people don't think travel should be creative, but I do. You can have a fantastic time in Europe doing what you want to do, not eating your travel spinach. And you learn about yourself in the process of letting your mind run free when brainstorming a trip.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! The London Pass is definitely NOT worth it, especially the transit option. Definitely DO NOT go with the London Pass. You can do everything cheaper without it!

PS: I'm not encouraging to whip off to Prague. I"ve never been. Just saying you don't give yourself an artificial deadline for figuring this out because other people's opinions.

Hi Kanvis, i thnk you will have a fab time, and now you have two trips to plan!! if you need any help finding an apartment in london i am more than happy to do some research, will just need your budget and will try and find some nice villagy options for you to look at

By the way, Kanvis, I did live in London and Paris, so one thing to appreciate about London is that is really a collection of small cities and villages pressed together, and many of these areas retain a very distinct feeling and vibe. Sort of like the way in Los Angeles, Pasadena is a lot different from Santa Monica, but even more so in the case of London. A great many of the things most visitors enjoy are connected and close (and can take days to see), but rather than day trips, it can be interesting to go into the not-obvious-neighborhoods, or walk around the Heath. There is a sunday farmer's market in Marylebone that is much less touristy than the one in Borough Hall (although you might want to do both). On a nice day, I think it is fantastic to go to Kenwood House, especially if you walk up through the heath to get there from Hampstead Village. There are interesting things to do scattered all over London.

As for Paris, I've never found anything as interesting in France outside of Paris as I have in Paris, but that's just me. You might find this thread interesting

http://www.frommers.com/community/forum.cfm/europe/france/jewel-of-daytrip-paris

Zeppole, I mean this with the utmost sincerity, you have kept me from banging my head against the keyboard I know exactly what you mean though about expectations. In my mind, my first kiss was going to involve Leonardo DiCaprio and spontaneous music playing in the background. Although it was special, it took what seemed like weeks, to get the taste of my suitors Payday out of my mouth. To this day, I cannot eat that candy bar.

I think my one expectation, or shall I say greatest expectation, is to spend one on one time with my new hubby. We have learned how to entertain ourselves during 12 hour stints in the waiting room, while our son was in surgery. I think we can keep ourselves occupied in Paris and London.

When I get ready to plan our Italian escapade <--- working name, we will definitely be harassing you for ideas. I'm thinking Rome, a coastal city (Capri or Postiano), Florence and our romantic hub we talked about. Some don't like Verona, but I rented Letters to Juliet (horrible movie) and did some research, and just wow. Your suggestions have been the most in tune with what we are looking for. I just think we will get more out of two trips instead of one. Not to mention what a great 6month or 1year anniversary trip.

I am looking into apartments and trying to get exact locations so we can put deposits down, perhaps HG001London or someone familiar can help with the rentals? thank you EVERYONE

To Zeppole, some people may have negative attitudes or be less then pleasant, but such is life. You just smile, move on, and hope your kindness makes their day brighter hence my love for the happyface

Okay, but not sure what you will do when you finally get to italy and see so many guys who look like Leonardo DiCaprio. (Eat a gelato?)

I agree Letters to Juliet was a truly annoying movie (smile, move on), it does have some fine shots of Verona (and the always cute Gael Garcia Bernal), but I must say that even the lovely pictures in the movie don't do the town justice.

While you are day dreaming and doodling, if still dream of seeing one other destination outside of Paris and London, you might think about Belgium if you really like chocolate, waffles, fries and you've never really tasted beer until you've tasted it there. It's on the train line between London and Paris. Antwerp and Ghent are my absolute favorites. Food is much better in Antwerp; Ghent is small but utterly full of charm. Bruges is the huge tourist draw, and suffers because of it (check out the black comedy movie In Bruges), but I prefer the other towns. Brussels is really difficult and in many ways unpleasant, other than the glorious Grand Place, which is very much worth popping in to see, even if you just get off the train to Paris and have lunch there.

Don't know how you'll end up dividing your days, and you might be more relaxed to stay in London and Paris and not add outside trips. They really are incredibly rich places.

In London, for your lodgings search, don't overlook the South Bank. If you are on a budget and working far enough in advance, the London School of Economics rents out flats. I think the Bankside locatio is great, but others work as well:

http://www.lsetopfloor.co.uk/

If they are all booked up or unaffordable, I tend to like leafy London up the northern line, but I very rarely rent an apartment when I go there anymore and I don't know what's on the market, so can't advise.

Paris is much easier to find someplace really nice. I like the 14th, and I also like the 2d arr. In fact, there was a thread on Fodor's not too long ago that might help you out:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/why-doesnt-anyone-talk-about-staying-in-the-2nd-arr-in-paris-am-i-blind.cfm

Bon chance!

An agency we have used twice in London for a B&B (a "real" one as a room in someone's home, not a small hotel) is AtHomeinLondon. These are not flats and so you can't cook there (or probably use laundry--we couldn't), but we did have access to refrigerators; they were great, roomy, in great areas, less expensive than hotels and comparable or less than small flats. Nice people to work with. You might look at their website to see if anything appeals. We liked the one in Belgravia especially--less than 10 minutes from Harrods one way and Hyde Park Corner Tube stop the other; two minutes from two local pubs; 10 minutes from a grocery story and wonderful bakery. (It's actually the Featured Home on the website as of this day's posting) Anyway, if you aren't definitely settled on looking for a flat, you might check them out. http://www.athomeinlondon.co.uk/ Some of their homes appear to be a bit further out of central London, but that might appeal, too.

Hi Kanvis,

would be very very happy to look for you? what are your london dates? and rough budget

hey actually just seen dates as march 2012 so it should be fine as most places should still be avalable so dont need exact dates, just a rough idea on budget. Its a week in London right?

I think you have made a wise decision to split your trip into 2. You will have a chance to really experience London and Paris and, later, Italy.

You inquired about things to do outside of London and Paris. Our favorites in London are Kew Gardens, Hampton Court and Windsor Castle.

In Paris, we like to visit Giverny, Chartres, Versailles and, if you have time, Reims.

Have fun planning and have a wonderful honeymoon.

Option 1: Great value 1 bed apartment in Soho, very very central london.

Ok randomly found this place, not sure what your budget is, but this i think is amazing value for the location ("soho", 5 mins from picc circus/regent street_ - this is uber-uber central london and very cool-lots of restaurants and bars and where londoners go as well as tourists- i work in this area and absolutely love it.

I know maybe not quite the suburb experience you might want but i really think this is a good deal for the location

March 2-9th 2012 : £1178 (there appears to be a early booking discount)

this is honestly excellent value and the location is great- serioulsy central- you would save on travel costs too

http://www.friendlyrentals.com/en/apartments/london/apartment-3352-224.htm

its not even just a studio- it is a 1 bed flat.

If not this website seems to have some other good options but i think this one is a catch for sure. See what you think

sorry that was 2013 i checked (not 2012 as i said above)

Option 2: "Romance" (honestly thats its name) in South Kensington

http://www.friendlyrentals.com/en/apartments/london/PropertyDetails.aspx?CultureCode=en-GB&RegionId=224&PropertyId=3500#an_calculator

Price 1 week 2-9 March 2o12: £1286

pros: more village location (although not as uber central), slightly bigger (65 sqmts), cute decor

again using the same, website- friendly rentals

Option 2- if you go through the photos (quite a few, just flick past the, this place looks lovely and even has a balcony. This is the type of place i would go for decor wise- its super quirky and in a nice building.

This looks like a biggish flat and the kitchen looks very nice too, I think this place may even beat option 1 purely for the size and feel of the flat

Option3- Cute little House in very desirable suburb of Richmond upon Thames

http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p401032

pros, living like (rather wealthy)-londoners! - this is a very desirable neighbourhood, garden!!

looks nice too. Much cheaper. Richmond Village, Richmond Park

Price in March: £795 a week

Cons- further out

option 3- for some reason this place is way cheaper in March than other times in year, when it goes up to £1500 a week. This is a really lovely location, i think this would be a excellent deal at £795

there are quite a few reviews on the website too, all good!

Ok so i shall leave you to digest those three options see if any of them is anything like you wanted....(or if i am completely off the mark!)

To summarise

Option 1 : Very very central flat in Soho: circa £1200 -55 sqmt. Nice decor-separate bedroom

Option 2: Bigger apartment with balcony and quirky Romantic decor in Kensington circa £1300 - 75 sqmt

Option 3: Cute little cottage in very desirable Richmond upon Thames- great value £800ish, village life with garden.

All three i think look very good- think i would be inclined to go with 3 as is such great value.

See in caps my first thoughts to your Italy questions:

1. Find the best Gelato (we are willing to taste as many as we must) FLORENCE
2. Find the best Pasta/Pizza-DON'T KNOW
3. Have a convo with as many people who are willing-EVERYWHERE BUT REMEMBER, THERE ARE THREE LEVELS OF GOODBYE IN ITALY. AVOID SAYING CIAO TO FOLKS YOU DON'T KNOW.
4. Get lost in cobblestone streets-VENICE
5. See at least one piece of art that brings tears to our eyes-FLORENCE OR VENICE
6. Make Pasta-DON'T KNOW BUT THINK FLORENCE MIGHT HAVE MORE COOKING OPPS
7. Buy indigenous keepsakes-EVERYWHERE!
8. Buy an italian leather purse or sandals-FLORENCE

We saw a work by Joaquín Sorolla in one of the art museums in Venice that stopped us cold. The ceilings in Scuola Grande dei Carmini were jaw dropping.

"Mending the Sail" was the Sorolla work. Looking for my notes for the venue. Sigh.

Italy Pasta tip for your second trip:

If you want to make pasta when you do do your Italy trip, this B&B will give you a one on one. Its also a lovely B&B-amazing amazing food!!!

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187895-d593710-Reviews-Giglio_Bianco_B_B-Florence_Tuscany.html

(my review is in there somewhere!!, HG001London again)....we spent new years eve here a few years ago and it was really lovely. In 3 nights we chose to eat in every night as the food was so good and we never eat in normally!!

I've noticed before that a fair number of Fodor's Europe posters are "experienced" travelers because they are photorgraphers -- which is already distances you from being in contact with people directly -- or because they regularly had to travel for business for year. And of course some are just committed tourists of the Big Sights. But that isn't all travel is. A lot of us traveled abroad and talked to people to find out about their culture. We didn't hide behind our cameras or guidebooks. We sat down in cafes way off the beaten path and discovered that people in Europe aren't afraid to talk to strangers. They actually are quite relaxed about it. It's a normal thing to do. It's not New York_________________zepp, you've managed to be insensitive to quite a few people Fodorites.

Going to throw out this place we are staying at in June in Le Marche - off the beaten trail and we hope to just chill and experience a less touristed part of Italy - and take cooking lessons. We will post a trip report at the end of June so will report back!

www.latavolamarche.com

zepp, you give great advice...(and I am not saying this in a mean way) but sometimes you are as bad as those you criticize. We all love to travel, and you push your style of travel as much as any of the fodorites you refer to. Neither are right or wrong, I think people of course prefer how they themselves travel. I try to provide my feedback with the OP's interest in mind, but of course its going to be biased - we all are. At the end of the day the OPs can decide how they want to take the advice, we are all adults at the end of the day!

ohh by the way Kanvis, i just wanted to apologise if i have got it completely off the mark with my apartment choices.....

Reading messages has made me realise i am maybe a little bit too much looking at this from my point of view and where i would like to stay...so i apologise if i seemed a tad forcefull with any of the three options i suggested. (I hope not, i really wasn't trying too-i found myslef thinking it was planning one of my trips!)....i'm relatively new to all this and need to maybe step back and realise its not my trip i am planning it's someone elses and they maybe quite different...i am learning-i hope

I am so glad you decided to just stick to Paris and London for your first trip-don't think you'll be short changing yourselves by this decision. There is so much to see and do and I love your wish list for both cities-very similar to what my husband and I did only our first trip was for our 25th anniversary!
Our second trip to Europe was for 3 weeks in Italy last year-keep Florence in mind when planning that trip-great food,good central area for day trips in Tuscany( my husband does not drink wine either but loved everything we did anyway) and he had tears in his eyes when he saw David even though he is absolutely not an art lover.

Okay, when I was comparing San Francisco (my hometown) to Florence, I was thinking of the ease of walking, the wonderful food, the compactness of the city. I was walking the streets at 6 am just to commune with Dante. Don't think he ever made it to the City.

HG001London, thank you for sending me those links I don't think your being pushy, at all. I like all of the apartments and they are in our budget. Can you check out a listing I found? Its located:

Tower Bridge Road, London, SE1 3LS, United Kingdom, I think this is the address? Is this a safe area? close to everything?

Also, I think it is natural for everyone to want to share their discoveries. If someone were to ask me for advice for California, I'm pushing SF really hard and begging you to stay from LA. I take no offense and have had fun looking up all the restaurants suggested. You guys are truly awesome.

I don't think Zeppole tried to push his way to travel on me, his/her advice just struck a cord with what we wanted.

To Zeppole: Leonardi DiCaprio look-a-likes might be a problem

As you enjoy the beautiful bridges of your San Francisco, you will no doubt also appreciate the bridges of London. This might be helpful: http://www.gpsmycity.com/tours/bridges-of-london-1256.html

Too much on your agenda and not enough time.
Forget wasting time looking for best burgers, but FYI Florence is the home of the famous "bistecca fiorentina" or Florentine steak.
A good gelato as well as cappucino can be found anywhere in Italy.
Forget about hotels and stick with apartment accommodations.
Try these web sites: booking.com and/or vrbo.com
Good luck trimming your list!

Oh Louiseee thank you for the website, I absolutely adore bridges

Kanvis,

Haven't I read somewhere that Leonardo diCaprio has an apartment in Verona? Even more incentive to visit at some point! Haha

The first trip my husband and I ever took together was to London years ago. One of the best memories that we still talk about was going to a musical (first one I had ever seen, thought I would hate it but absolutely loved it) and then going to a late night after theater dinner at some Thai restaurant and splitting a bottle of champagne with our meal. If you stay at a hotel, ask the concierge for a recommendation for a show. We actually saw two and the performers were amazingly talented. We bought the soundtrack for the show and still listen to it and remember our trip. I can't remember where the half price ticket booth is but surely you could find it with minimal research.

That London trip was in 1999 when the Eye was first built. We climbed to the top of St Paul's cathedral (Prince William's parents Charles and Diana were married there) and have some pretty pictures of the sun setting through the Eye. It was Dec. so the sun went down earlier of course...

Shortly after London, we were fortunate enough to travel to Verona for a week. While walking the streets of Verona, I made the comment that I love all of the cities I have visited but I could live in a place like Verona. As fate would have it last year, we moved to Italy about an hour and a half away from Verona! I feel sure you will get to all of the places you want too and have a lifetime of great memories. If you want to do something completely touristy in Verona, write your name and your love's name on the wall of the tunnel leading to Juliet's balcony-- you'll see all of the graffiti. Warning, this is completely crowded and touristy. But take a silver Shapie to color a background space and a black Sharpie to write you name on top of the silver background and maybe you can return years later to see if your names are still there...

Best of luck and many happy travels!

ciaojulie,
Verona is looking better every minute Why did you think you could live in Verona as opposed to the other places you have visited?

My fiance and I just recently went to a musical in LA, and it was interesting. It was at the Pantages theater, and the seats were just horrible, but the singing was magical. I have been trying to research London, and so far the best thing I have found is a rooftop Jacuzzi at the flat we are hoping to rent just kidding.
Although I haven't been to Venice or Verona, something about Verona just pulls at my heart. I honestly can't describe it. Thank you for all the well wishes, I feel so bad for getting such a response. I don't want to take from anyone else who has a question.

Ok, so checked out the street-view/location on google for the Tower Bridge
address- it¡¦s quite a long road but the post code seemed to pin point in
towards the actual tower bridge end.

While this is central I really would personally not chose this area as its
very much an office/built up residential flats area with very little charm
or nightlife (and by nightlife I mean restaurants/pubs/cafes- there a
couple of pubs a few streets away but not many eating places). If it were
my choice I would say that unless the flat is absolutely amazing and
something you have your heart set on I would try and look elsewhere.

You can see using google street view that other than office buildings and
generic copy-cat flats and I think a premier inn hotel and cost-cutter
grocery store there really isn¡¦t much to see (well obviously the bridge is
there but you will see that plenty of times in the week of sightseeing
anyway).

As this is a couple trip I would say to avoid this area, especially if you
picture yourself having nice strolls back to the flat at night rather that
taxis/buses.

However, if you see yourself as getting up going straight to places, having
a full day away from the place and then back here after dinner/pubs
somewhere else using public transport than its fine as its very central and
if the flat is really nice and really good value than I would not
completely disregard it, but if you want a more village like, vibrant area
that you can enjoying staying in/walking around at night than its not great.

Sorry I really hope this has not ruined an otherwise perfect find ļ

One other thing¡K¡K.I am sure a million people would disagree with this
(and expect them to tell me!)- if you are wanting village life area from
prime central london- in my opinion I would focus on West London:
Wimbledon, Hamstead, Ealing, Primrose Hill, Putney, Richmond, Wandsworth,
Clapham, Marlebone, Camden, Balham, Fulham, Earls Court, Chelsea, Kensington, Kingston
(slightly further a field) & Surbiton (nice with fast link to Waterloo).
Although in East- Blackheath/Greenwich, Central Islington, Stoke Newington
in the east are also nice). But as I say am sure others will agree,
Shoreditch in East London is very trendy at the moment and if you fancy
bars and proper nightlife this seems to be the place to be!

Stay in Venice not Verona, it is magical, especially in the evenings, with its glittering canals, and piazza san marco, the centre with its lovely cafeterias and orchestras. Verona is nice, but a day trip would be enough to visit the arena and centre, absolutely incomparable to Venice. It is unique.

I have been to Venice twice, there are good restaurants where you can eat good pizza and pasta, Venice is full of little restaurants

Th flat is like 3 stories, 3000 sq feet, with a rooftop hot tub But if it's as you say, we will look for some other options. Thank you HG001London

The European city that reminded me most of San Francisco was Istanbul, with its hills, waterways and bridges.

I have never had an even acceptable burger outside the U.S. Oh, maybe in Canada.

You can't live like a local unless you are a local. Oh, you can hire people to simulate the experience of shopping and cooking, etc, but it's just paid tourism. It is important not to delude yourself about this.

There is an inherent conflict between "the aim is to live like the locals, not create a list of places we want to visit and then making a complicated touring schedule," and visiting three countries in 16 days, which are to include " Visit a museum (orsay perhaps)
3. Sail down the Siene at night . . . Take the Jack the Ripper walking tour, at night
2. Take the Harry Potter tour 3. Take the city walk tour of the city . . . ride the double decker bus 11. Shop at harrods." None of these will make you feel like a local and some are pretty much exclusively for tourists.

My advice would be to cut down to two locations and exclude Italy, which everyone wants to love and which can be quite lovable, but which conceals its essentially avaricious nature under a kindly veneer which can confuse a first-time visitor. You won't make that mistake in England or France.

Do all the things you dream of doing.

I've never understood the need to plan what you're going to eat?

They have food every where you will go. Eat the best of what they offer in that city. During my first trip out of the US, we went to Spain. I had to try Mexican food, thinking that it would logically be the birthplace of Mexican food. It was horrible. Very disapointing.

Go for it, if you really want to eat steak and burgers but except that they may not possibly be able to live up to your expectations.

Living life like the locals, which is a complete impossibility unless you actually do live there, speak the languages fluently, hold down a job in those countries, and have family and friends there, is among other things totally at odds with finding the best steak and burger. It's charming that so many people go to Europe smitten with romantic expectations like these, and maybe those expectations are met to a very small degree, but to hold them out as the goals of a trip is highly unrealistic. Doesn't mean you won't be totally bowled over by Europe, just that you'll realize that your original expectations were skewed, probably by Hollywood or novels.

I was born in NYC and to date have spent the majority of my adult life living there, and fellow New Yorkers in this thread seem not to grasp the sociability of other capital cities, the investment in conversation and shared public space. It is fair to say that a great many people living in European capitals live there precisely for the conversation and the public life, while a great many people in New York seek isolation.
____

It has gotten much friendlier since you left. It is a fun place now.

I spend a fair amount of time in NYC and do not get the impression that folks there seek isolation...quite the contrary. It's a big, open, friendly city. Not one where people smile at each other and say hello when they pass on the street (how could they? There's a gazillion people walking around on any given sidewalk on any given day), but the general vibe of the city is an open heartfelt friendly one, albeit with a modicum of streetwise wariness.

Zep's comment about is as patently absurd as Newt Gingrich's comment about the "metro" being for elitists.

Zep's impressions of NYC were of her life, not others, and what she like to tell her European friends to seem grandly different. I have lived in NYC all my life and oddly enough, we are like other humans, except there are more of us.

There are 8 million people living in close quarters and we have our own non-verbal form of communication and yes, sometimes verbal.

We also had 50 million visitors last year and Manhattan swells by approximately 200,000 commuters going to work every weekday.

And if we did not know how to get along the streets would be littered with dead people. And coincidently that stopped too when Zep moved away. Now we are the safest large city in America.

Umm ok, we were looking for a steak and burger to compare with the US, and for no other reason. Just like an Italian might try the best Italian food in America.

Number 2 (my first comment was number one In case you find yourself without direction). In no way, shape, or form are we under the misconception that we will become Italian and integrate into the Italian community for the duration of our trip. Had you bothered to read what I wrote, perhaps you would understand what our intentions are. Since you can't be bothered with such trivialities, I shall reiterate it here for you: In an attempt to respect the countries we are visiting, and act like humbled guests, we are choosing to embrace Italian/French customs and ways of life.

We are not going to travel to another country and expect America to come with us. We plan to achieve this, not by traipsing off to work with the locals, but by learning the language and being lead instead of trying to lead in someone's homeland.

Number three: My goals are entirely realistic for the type of relationship we have. We could live in a three sided cardboard box underneath a freeway overpass, and we would still find a way to have hope and appreciation for what we have. Even if, all we have is each other.

If you believe that eating and taking walks is too much to expect, and best left for Hollywood endings, then I suggests you travel more, preferably with someone you love.

I am not going to apologize for not wanting to live my life based off what an anonymous poster on Fodors thinks I should do. To have such arrogance is far more offensive than anything I have planned. Please refrain from typing, if you have nothing insightful to say.

In case my response was too long, or you didn't read here is the cliff-noted version: Read thoroughly before you rush to write an opinion, you might come off a little better.

Kanvis, about your Tower Bridge Road address - I used to pass by there every day on my way to work. Tower Bridge Road itself is a busy main road. On the same side as this address and east from there, along the railway lines, is still mainly small industrial premises and public housing; not unsafe, but not pretty or particularly interesting. On the other side of Tower Bridge Road, however, is the gentrifying bit of Bermondsey. There are places to eat and drink up and down Bermondsey Street and along Tooley St, and an arty/alternative vibe, with Zandra Rhodes's Fashion Museum: but you'd have to cross the main road to get there.

PatrickLondon, thank you so much for your expertise, we are going to look in a different location. We love the idea of finding an area with lots of character. I went to google earth and saw exactly what you mean. It does look quite industrial and undifferentiated.

Kanvis,

It occurs to me to add that if you are still looking for lodgings, you might check out using AirBnB. It might suit your style if you find the right location and space. I've never used them, so I can't offer any personal experience, and it may not be what you're looking for. (Don't be put off by the headline of this article):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/oct/07/airbnb-grown-up-couch-surfing

http://www.airbnb.com/

(By the way, I love the Pantages theater.)

kanvis
I again sugget athomeinlondon like I did above IF you aren't set on a flat. The rooms in Belgravia might suit. Except for not being able to cook dinner (we did often pick up stuff from Waitrose nearby and eat in the room) or do laundry (except in the sink), you might find they offer you the other things you are looking for--room, neatness, proximity to all the stuff you need, walking distance from some sights (like Hyde Park and Harrods), 2 minutes from two pubs where the local residents spilled out onto the sidewalk every evening on their way home from work, 10 minutes from Belgravia's-village-like (well, sorta) feel of apothecary and bank and market and bakery on a few streets. It was lovely.

PS, Kanvis,

I should make clear that many of the accommodations at AirBnB are completely independent apartment rentals. Here's the report of one traveler who used them:

http://www.frommers.com/community/forum.cfm/tips-tools-deals/lodging/airbnb-first-experiences

Hi,
I loved the area around Bloomsbury. It is near the British Museum. I would grab a coffee and sit in one of the many little parks. Take a look on google. It is within walking distance of the major sites (I love to walk). There was a great Indian restaurant in the neighbourhood. Just a thought. Btw, I love your enthusiasm. I try to approach my trips in much the same way. The last trip I looked for tours (walking and hiking) advertised in British newspapers and the like. I was able to find a walking holiday that attracted more Brits than tourists. It was great fun and I got to meet many "locals" as opposed to tourists.
I look forward to hearing what you finally end up doing!