Kanvis

Hello all,
I have written a couple of posts to ask questions about a trip I am planning for March 2013 (13-29th this includes 2 travel days). Unfortunately I feel like I am caught between a rough place and the stress of it all is driving my absolutely mad. My intuition tells me that we should visit Paris, London, and either Venice or Verona. Neither of us has been outside of the United States, but our favorite place in the states is San Francisco. We love the feminine beauty of the city, the ability to leave your hotel room and walk for hours without getting bored, and the majesty of the bridges.

I included our thoughts on SF as this might help with advice regarding Paris and London. We like the idea of renting an apartment or flat and doing walking tours of the city. We also like the idea of heading to the local market and cooking together or taking a cooking class. As I have said in my last post, the aim is to live like the locals, not create a list of places we want to visit and then making a complicated touring schedule.

In Paris we have to do the following:
1. Try many croissants, crepes, macarons, and decide which is the best (we will hold a small award ceremony in our flat)
2. Visit a museum (orsay perhaps)
3. Sail down the Siene at night
4. Have a symbolic wedding ceremony on the balcony of our apartment
5. Get lost and speak only broken french to find our way home
6. Kiss on every level of the Eiffel tower
7. Find the best steak and burger
8. Buy french perfume and feminine delicates

In London we must
1. Take the Jack the Ripper walking tour, at night
2. Take the Harry Potter tour
3. Take the city walk tour of the city
4. Have a proper english breakfast and tea time
5. Go pub crawling
6. Try a traditional Sunday Dinner (i hear the yorkshire pudding is amazing)
7. Find the best steak and burger
8. Ride the eye
9. Visit Stonehenge
10. Ride the double decker bus
11. Shop at harrods (we might be able to afford a key chain)
12. Hit up some of the free museums

These are the things we want to do in Italy, please recommend a location
1. Find the best Gelato (we are willing to taste as many as we must)
2. Find the best Pasta/Pizza
3. Have a convo with as many people who are willing
4. Get lost in cobblestone streets
5. See at least one piece of art that brings tears to our eyes
6. Make Pasta
7. Buy indigenous keepsakes
8. Buy an italian leather purse or sandals

a few caveats: I am allergic to seafood and my fiance does not eat fish, if you have any restaurant or regional recommendations for great food within these parameters, please help.



I know you might think these things are silly, but we need whimsy in our life more than anything else. We know we might discover more on our journey, but finding things you didn't plan for, is half the fun. How many days should we include, and do these cities deliver what we are looking for? Thank you in advance

Aduchamp1

You have many romantic notions that must be satisifed. I wish you well that you achieve this. I hope you do not miss the serendipitious adventures while searching for the preconceived notions.

The one idea I would drop is to live like a local. That is also an idealized version that may satisfy your imgaination but not the reality.

Good luck.

Kanvis

Would you recommend a hotel over an apartment? Our idea of living like a local is just staying in an apartment buying some items (picnic fresh fruit from the market) and trying to be more independent. We will still indulge in restaurants and such

Kanvis

Sorry, I probably should have combined my last two post, I'm sorry if I broke protocol

grandmere

These all seem to be things you can do w/o the input of others; eg, for Paris, just do it! I would only question a great steak and burger; whereas you can certainly find steak and burgers in Paris, I think you might be a bit disappointed since beef in France does taste different from US beef. You might better enjoy beef bourguignon or another dish where the beef has been cooked in wine,etc. (Or you may love the French steak or burger!) And with few exceptions you will find a wide selection of meat available in restaurants; it would be difficult, in fact, to find a place that only serves fish or seafood so that should be no problem for you. Lots of chicken, beef, pork, and other animals (such as rabbit) that you might want to try.

Good luck!

grandmere

As to hotel vs apartment: do you think you will be ok w/o the availability of concierge or person at front desk to lend some help with directions, calling taxis, making recommendations, etc.? You would be absolutely fine w/o this; it's just how comfortable you are doing it on your own. I mention this only because first-timers are sometimes hesitant to do without the support that a hotel provides.

kybourbon

>>>Have a convo with as many people who are willing<<<

How's your Italian?

I really don't understand the choice of either Verona or Venice, but Venice seems to have more restaurants geared to seafood.

Zerlina

Why has Rome fallen out of the picture? For everything on your list (except maybe 3.: what is a convo?), it offers more possibilities than Venice or Verona.

di2315

I'd vote for going with your intuition, every time!

You are the only ones who really know what you want from this trip - if it's your first to Europe, then everything is going to be new and fascinating.

I'd also go for an apartment - even though locals will say you're not really living the 'local' life, it's the closest we travellers can get to the real thing.

Our apartment experiences have meant so much more than those of hotels; the fact that you need to shop for food etc puts you into spaces that you'd miss out on if you ate in restaurants all the time.

In European cities most people will be able to help you, even if you don't know the local language. Just learn to say 'hello' in their language, keep a smile on your face, and you'll find how helpful people can be.

My only word of caution would be to not try and fit in too many cities for this trip - hopefully there will be plenty more opportunities for travel in the future. You sound like the kind of people who want to take time to smell the roses, rather than tick off a list of 'iconic sites'. Di

kja

I once read - and have come to fully agree - that the single most important thing you can take with you when you travel is your sense of humor. Sounds like you'll be taking plenty of that!

So my reaction is: Go for it! You seem to have a clearer sense of what you want to do and experience than many travelers, and the only way you'll know whether your trip can be what you want it to be is to try!

Will each place deliver? Maybe, maybe not. They've been major tourist destinations a very long time for good reasons, but not everyone appreciates them. It seems to me that the more one expects them to be something very specific, the greater the risk of disappointment; the more one allows oneself to experience them for what they are, the more able one is to enjoy them. Instead of asking whether a place will deliver, it might be helpful to ask how you'll feel if you don't find out for yourself.

As Adu suggested, however, the goal to "live like a local" may be best left where you are, in fact, local.

I haven't been to Verona yet. From my long-ago experience of Venice (which I adored!), I'm not sure it meets your image of an Italian city - you can definitely expect to get lost (!), but the cuisine is better known (I think) for fish and seafood than pasta or pizza and shopping has more to do with glass than leather. Florence might better match your image, and its artwork brought many welcome tears to my eyes. (But I was moved to tears by artwork in Venice and other cities, too! Maybe a few more tears, and few more raptures, in Florence. I'm glad this isn't a test!) Venice is definitely beautiful and unique and home to some stunning art works and a likely source of incredible memories, even if not of pasta or leather shops.

Hope that helps! I'm sure you'll have a wonderful trip - your attitudes are right on!

Kanvis

convo, is conversation, I think I spent too much time on facebook today. My fiance and I are enrolling in language claases, so we can at least master the basics and show respect as guests of such beautiful countries.

Zeppole actually recommended Verona and after some research it seems really romantic, and we get a more local experience. We are young and hope to visit Italy many times in the future. We would like to save Rome and the Amalfi coast for another trip. It's always great to have something to look forward too. Rome is a little more faced paced then say Venice, and towards the end of our trip we would like to relax, lounge, and savor

To grandmere, I was just making sure our expectations were realistic. If someone said they wanted to relax and take it easy in LA or NY I might be a little concerned.

PatrickLondon

I don't see that anything in your plans is impossible or unrealistic, but to squeeze everything into your time-frame is rushing yourself: you'll need a fairly clear list of priorities about which things could if necessary go on to the "save it for next time" list.

And personally, I don't see Jack the Ripper as fitting in to the overall romantic image; nor do I quite understand people's fascination with Harrods. But that's a matter of taste.

daveesl

Kanvis, I like your style. You have things to do, but have not tied yourself down to absolute specifics, thus they can pretty much happen as they happen. As someone above wrote, you seem to be taking this all in with a good bit of humor and that is very important. As to the apartment idea, we essentially always use apartments, but then we also always travel off season (except for the annual Christmas trips).

No real suggestions, as your plans will work for any location

dave

avalon

ppen to prefer French beef to American. Hormone free and if cooked au point the taste to me is superior to US beef. Yes you do have to chew it it is not mushy like some US beef.The best burgers I have ever eaten have been in France and seem to be the latest craze in Paris in the last year or 2. But they are pricy compareded to US resto prices! A chain with always a line and the best sauce is Relais d'Entrecote. They have several places I am only familiar with the one on Rue St Benoit in the 6th. Robert and Louise is another noted for their grilled beef dishes.

zeppole

If you have seafood allergies, Venice is a challenge. If you are planning on renting an apartment, that helps.

Verona isn't known for having the greatest pizza or pasta, but it is a wine town with lots of alternatives to eating fish and it is romantic to me. Verona also has good train connections, not only to Venice, but to Padova (where you could see if the Scrovegni chapel makes you cry), and to Bologna for great pasta, which can also buy fresh and take back to an apartment in Verona. There is plenty of great shopping in Verona for a purse or sandals, and if you don't like the selection, Milan is close. If it gets hot, zip up to Trento in the mountains and do some gelato tasting, or over to Lago di Garda. Take a boat to Bardolino for a glass of red wine or ice cream on the lake. For whimsy, check out the chamber of the giants in Mantova's Palazzo Te and a bike riding around town.

Were I looking to have a cry over art in Verona, I would quickly check into buying tickets to the outdoor opera in the Roman arena in Verona.

I think Verona is a pretty place to have as a home base, and you can explore many quarters of the city. For a week's stay though, you will probably want to be doing a number of day trips by train. If that begins to dampen your enthusiasm, then Venice itself might be better, or Padova, which makes it much easier to slip in and out of Venice, has practically no tourists, and you can easily visit Verona from there as well. Padova also has less seafood than Venice.

How serious is your seafood allergy? Have you got cross-contamination issues?

zeppole

PS, Kanvis,

I wanted to add that I am a local in Italy and I disagree greatly with Aduchamp's post about aiming toward living like a local when you are here in Italy. Italian life is not so exotic that you can't be a participant very easily, even with language obstacles. The rhythms and customs of Italian life are public. People do spend a lot of time conversing at the market, enjoying coffee in an outdoor cafe and meals with whom they love, and they tend to do these things at very regular times. Many of the things that visitors enjoy doing -- shopping, strolling in the early evening, admiring the gorgeous buildings and being delighted at the sight of children playing or the sunset -- are the very things Italian also enjoy doing, quite openly. And yes, they will "convo" with you.

To deride this as "romantic" is to miss the point that Italy is one of the most romantic places in the world. To live like a local in Italy is to live romantically. Keep as a value when you come here.

qwovadis

Congrats on your trip I go a lot. Apartments seem great I have done them usually they are not scammers no elevator stairs no AC rodents old tine bathrooms go with an agency of repute franceby.com italyby.com or forget it never wire money to all the INDIVIDUAL scammers that tout on the boards vrbo craigslist airbnb in clever disguises.

In LON londontown.com Dolphin House IS a nice modern apartment complex or many nice hotels there. In Paris ihg.com Crowne Plaza Reppublique in a nice Haussmann building in a central area. In Venice www.bauervenezia.com my fav from 200 euro for me last www.otel.com

Economy is super bad in many places average locals do not live very well shrink your world and your budget by 50% that
is how the average Joe lives not sure I would want to spend my vacation doing that.

www.eurocheapo.com for more budget advice everywhere but
if you like upscale SF you will not like budget hotels in Europe most WAY to basic.

Happy Hunting!

qwovadis

The next bankruptcy candidate: Italy shocked the stock ... this year expected the gross domestic product ... the budget deficit by Shrink in 2014 to 0.2 percent of GDP.
economicsnewspaper.com/policy/...bankruptcy-candidate-italy-shaken

Folks are making the best of it but youth unemployment approaching 30% things are far from "romantic" for most families currently but they are a very spiritual people and are making the best of a bad situation the worst probably since WW2.

Kanvis

Thank you so much for all of the replies

The one thing that has gotten our family through some really tough times, is learning to have a sense of humor. I know that I cannot control most things, but I can control how i react to them. I choose to be positive and to take things in stride. Unpleasant things don't last forever and when they end you are usually better for it.

If we encounter some mishaps, they might be frustrating, but those are the stories you find yourself telling over and over again

To Zeppole, when I eat shellfish, or touch it I usually break out in hives and my tongue goes totally numb. Cross contamination might be an issue, but I have survived almost 30 years thus far, so here's hoping.

Where else could we go to find great pasta and pizza? One poster mentioned Tuscany, which we think is beautiful, but we don't drink wine, so viewing wineries in the area would be one thing we wouldn't include. We have been to napa, and found it beautiful, but we felt we missed something important, because we didn't get to taste the wine we learned about.

I'm worried that we will get a taste of Italy and wish we had more time. Paris is a must for us, but we are truly trying to figure out what else we should include. We were pretty set on Venice/Verona, but my fiance is determined to have great pasta and pizza. The italian food in our hometown is truly sad.

I still think Verona or Padova or even Venezia would be great hubs. My only concern is that we would have to keep taking trains out, and that might get hectic. Is there another hub we could use?

Zeppole, what do you think of Florence or maybe a Rome and Venice split instead of London. I hate to give up the city walks and such, but I'm willing to forgo London, if we can better achieve our goals.

jamikins

I think you can well achieve what you are looking for, with the exception of a great steak - they tend to pan fry steaks here in Europe and unless you want to spend a lot of cash on a fancy steak restaurant in London you will likely be disappointed. I think burgers the same - we have just given up and enjoy these things when we go back to N. America (I think N. America does these things the best!).

As for days - book open jaw, flying into London and out of Italy to save back tracking. Looks like you have 14 days, so 12 on the ground? I would:

13 - fly
14 - land in London
15 - London
16 - London
17 - London
18 - London
19 - train in the morning to Paris
20 - Paris
21 - Paris
22 - Paris
23 - Paris
24 - Fly to Italy (Venice is maybe easier because it has an international airport?)
25 - Italy
26 - Italy
27 - Italy
28 - Italy
29 - fly home

In London if you want a more 'local' feel you could rent an apartment somewhere like Hampstead. It is a bit farther out, but on the tube network and has a really nice villagey feel. South Kensington is nice as well. For pub crawls you will have no problem - just do it. The Jack the Ripper tour is ok, but almost everything is gone and you just see parking lots etc where events happened. Also it is PACKED with tourists!
Try looking at www.walks.com to see things you like - they do a really good tour of Stonehenge and Salisbury thats affordable.

For a great English Breakfast - that's tough, but go to a pub that isnt in a super touristy location (avoid Leicester Sq/Soho/Covent Garden areas). For a great Sunday Lunch there are lots around, so closer to the time repost and I can make some recommendations.

As for Paris and Italy - all those things are very easily achieved. Its just up to you to make them happen!

Have fun!