PalenQ

Since 1931 in Germany long-distance inter-city bus service has been banned by law, according to the following article that also explains that moves are afoot to now allow unfettered long-distance bus services in accordance with a general de-regulation of public transports in Germany.

The law was put in in 1931 the article says to protect the German nation rail system - Deutsche Bahn.

So soon there may be an alternative to the train when say going from Frankfurt Airport to Berlin, Munich to Berlin, etc.

In Germany, a Move to Lift Ban on Long Bus Trips - NYTimes.com
Sep 9, 2010 ... Germany Moves to Lift Ban on Long Distance Bus Trips ... The revised law could take effect in time to allow wide-open bus competition by ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/bu...bal/10bus.html

hetismij

Long distance bus travel is horrible. And let's face it train fares are not that bad.
I am off to Cologne for the day tomorrow, to visit the Messe. €78 1st class return. Could have got it even cheaper if I'd booked it a week earlier.

How will they get the buses into the city centres under the environmental zone laws? A lot of cars aren't allowed in, and they pollute less than buses do.

quokka

Discussion about this appeared on the news in Germany about a month ago but disappeared just as quickly, without any results. NY Times are really up to date, it seems.

PalenQ

hetismij - i agree about bus travel v train travel - buses to me are horrible too - cannot move around - may not have a loo onboard - bags heaped into an undercroft and seats much more cramped than trains.

DalaiLlama

Don't believe everything you read, here or in the press. There is a lot of untruth about that report, just check www.touring.de/Nationale-Buslinien.14.0.html, and input Prag-Nürnberg at www.bahn.de and see how that is now run as an Expressbus, and that's just a couple of examples. City-to-city buses have been running and are running as we speak.

PalenQ

There are some buses run in lieu of rail service like the Nurnberg Prague bus, upon which Deutsche Bahn tickets are honored i believe

and yes the article said touring company won a court case to run some services - but to say there is a lot on untruth in the article i think from what i read in it is just not so.

DalaiLlama

Need more evidence?

Quoting from www.berlinlinienbus.de/index.php:
BERLIN LINIEN BUS verbindet Berlin und andere deutsche Städte mit über 350 Zielorten in Deutschland und Europa.
Das flächendeckende Liniennetz besteht aktuell aus über 30 nationalen und 25 internationalen Buslinien und wird ständig um neue Zielorte und Buslinien erweitert

From http://www.fahrplan-online.de/fahrpl....php3?land=908
Buslinie Polen -Hannover - Köln - Brüssel - Paris. Hält auch Aachen, Düsseldorf, Essen, Bielefeld, Braunschweig, Magdeburg. Hinz-Travel-Express

That'll do for now. City-to-city buses have been running and are running as we speak.

PalenQ

The article mentions that laws allow international bus service going thru Germany and, according to the article, with the caveat they do not take passengers strictly between German stations although they can pick up for international destinations at many German cities.

The article is talking about strictly domestic long-distance bus services - and Touring is the exception because they took it to court and the court ruled in their favor. If other companies did they may win too but it appears the law will change because of the court case.

There are non Duetsche Bahn trains too like the Connexx trains between Leipzig and Berlin i saw a few years back.

Russ

I don't understand. The "Ab 9 Euro" service has connected Mannheim and Hamburg for some time now.

http://www.touring.de/index.php?id=14&L=1

PalenQ

I don't know either - nothing but what article says and it may be full of mis truths but the general point is valid - Germany has hindered a domestic bus service like you see in Britain and Italy by making most such services illegal and soon will be liberalized so that you will have more than a handful of such services.

Publius

There was a time when I rode Greyhound busses. I never liked them but used them because I couldn't afford the alternatives.

Now there is a great, competitive bus service that runs from Chinatown in DC to Times Square in NYC. I haven't taken it yet but it's supposed to take about 4 hours and cost around $30. I'd ride that rather than pay Amtrak rates.

I've also bussed all over Mexico. It's amazingly affordable and as nice as any train (primera plus or executivo class). I've bussed from TJ to Guadalajara. It would be better to fly to either DF or Guad and bus from there. The long leg across the Sonora desert is worth skipping (not to mention the border violence).

I wonder if long distance bus was banned because it would compete against the government monopoly? Or if there was another reason?

PalenQ

I wonder if long distance bus was banned because it would compete against the government monopoly? Or if there was another reason?>

the article says because of the government railway monopoly but in today's terms i would like to think the carbon footprint would be a factor - not sure if buses are as environmentally friendly as long fast trains and in today's world if they were not i would lean to banning them as well if they duplicated rail service that was significantly less a ozone depleter (I am not sure buses are but suspect they may be)

DalaiLlama

Buses are not for everyone, but when you can do trips like my recent Greyhound from Buffalo NY to Cleveland OH, for about twenty bucks, in less time that it would have taken me to do the airport check-in thing, with an empty seat next to me and a clean bus, that's pretty dang good. Arrived rested, in the middle of town in walking distance from my appointment - what's not to like?

And those long-distance coaches all over Spain, like from Madrid to Seville at freeway speeds for very little money, it's hard to argue against if you want to save money and avoid shuttles and airports and such. http://www.madrid-guide-spain.com/ma...ional-bus.html

In Switzerland there is the fabulous system of Postautos - the (formerly and in some cases still now butter-yellow) buses that nimbly go where trains don't, with their three-tone horn that little kiddies tend to imitate endlessly. www.postauto.ch

Other types of coaches (not the citybuses or the Postautos) like the Swiss "Fahrt Ins Blaue" excursion buses (you pay and hop on and you don't know where it's going - a popular pasttime in Switzerland) are called Car (capital C). Sometimes AutoCar. But a car is called an auto, pronounced differently according to the local dialect. In French it's voiture, of course.

To each his own, but buses/coaches are definitely a viable mode of transportation, and there are some available in Germany already, soon more, some of us hope.

PalenQ

To me the key thing is competition - free competition between trains, planes and buses - benefits everyone - just like deregulation of European air spaces created a whole network of cheap flights that are often way way cheaper than taking a train.

that said my time limit for a bus is about 3 hours before i start crawling up the windows wanting to get the H out!

flanneruk

"not sure if buses are as environmentally friendly as long fast trains "

According to Chris Goodall's "Living a Low Carbon Life" (still the best-informed antidote to the imbecilities of Greens who don't use their brains), a properly managed coach journey always dumps less carbon into the atmosphere per passenger-mile than overfast trains. EXCEPT in the case of France, where they have the sense to generate their electricity nuclearly. Coaches, usually, are even slightly more environment-friendly than ordinary trains. Trains are insanely, and planet-destroyingly, heavy compared to environmentally responsible forms of transport.

And that's before you factor in the environmental cost of building landscape-destroying track that carries next to no passengers.

PalenQ

Planes, Trains, Automobiles (and Buses): Which is the Greenest Way ...
Mar 19, 2009 ... Remember how I said the emissions of trains and buses get reversed for ... No matter how you cut it, flying is the most carbon-intense option. ... of emissions per mile on a short-haul flight versus a long haul flight. ...
planetgreen.discovery.com › Tech & Transport

comes to same conclusion Goodall does

yet the new TGV-Est in France has seen very significant lowering of the carbon footprint - mainly thru i think lessening the number of wheel sets and a general slimming down of the train itself along with a beter aerodynamic shape

kerouac

Anyway, France has the same long distance monopoly -- only international buses and no domestic long distance buses.

There have been so many international bus catastrophic crashes crossing France (Moroccan buses, Dutch buses, Polish buses...) that I'm sure that if they could ban international buses, they would. The train remains safe.

flanneruk

" flying is the most carbon-intense option. ... of emissions per mile on a short-haul flight versus a long haul flight"

Totally meaningless sentence.

Madrid to Rome by plane is less than half the kilometrage of Madrid to Rome by bus. London to Lisbon by train is almost as absurd. Athens to Rome by train or bus is almost three times the distance of the plane.

In all these cases, flying on a full, efficiently designed, plane dumps less carbon per passenger than getting a train. If that train is one of those willy-waving overfast status symbols, or (from Athens to Rome) a fuel-burning Communist-era gas-guzzler, you'd be a more responsible citizen chartering Concorde.

kerouac

In France, it's easy to compare because when you buy a ticket or rent a car, you get a carbon emission statement.