No.

Though I suspect your husband's attitude will make it look as if they are.

I have been a member of this forum since July 1993 (used 3 different names throughout the years)-- possibly one of the oldest members to date. I used to see this question posted and discussed more frequently in the past. In a synopsis, if I was to answer in general terms the answer is that absolutely NOT, the vast majority of the French people that I have come across after 7-8 visits to various parts of France have been very pleasant and not one instance of rude behavior. God honest truth. Go to France, if you don't you will be missing out on one of the most beautiful, interesting countries on the Globe.

No the people of France do not hate those of America.

Sometimes busy waiters with too much or too little education may not observe all the usual attitudes you may be used to but does not mean they hate Americans.

Unless, of course, you are your husband are bankers, when, of course, all bets are off.

Aboslutely not - thats like asking if all Americans hate the French. Complete over-generalisation.

If you are polite and respectful of them and their culture they will treat you the same as I am sure you and your husband would treat a visitor to the US.

If you are obnoxious and rude (and definitely not saying you or any other american are) then you will be treated as such as I am sure you would treat a visitor in the US being rude and obnoxious.

You do need to be mindful of the differences in culture however - service is not the same friendly service you get in America as it just isnt done that way in France generally. You have to request the check and can be ignored for long periods if you dont ask for something. You dont get ice in your drinks generally. So as long as you are aware of what you might run into and not consider these things rude then you should be absolutely fine!

Enjoy France!

We were there last month and the people were friendly and very nice.

What the French dislike are loud obnoxious tourists, not restricted to Americans. More and more French speak passable English and are quite willing to be friendly and helpful.

NO. As Viajero says, this used to be as regular a question as restaurant in Paris.
With regard to waiters, we've had a big dose of attitude from time to time--have had it in the US also.
It is courteous to try to speak a few words of French, observe THEIR custom of saying hello and goodbye and thank you upon leaving a shop (as I do in the US!).
Manners make you nice to know. France is a wonderful place with nice people.

Now that the basic fact has been established (though doubtless someone will come on the thread to allege French xenophobia) perhaps the discussion could focus on "What I need to know about France & the French in order to have a pleasant holiday"

You've had good advice about cultural differences. They are subtle and they are important. The French are scrupulously polite, IME. Politeness expresses itself differently: through reserve, formality, deference... in short, through "correctness". Not the American style at all.

That may make them seem cold or brusque. As a people, they are not.

They can also be scathing in response to what they see as rudeness in others.

I've never experienced the intense hostility or the menace of violence I sometimes observe as a visitor to the US. But I've been told off, in no uncertain terms and in a tone of high dudgeon. I generally deserved it.

We have been to France 8 times and have traveled all over the country. I do not recall a single instance of rudeness and certainly have had no indication that the French "hate" Americans. To the contrary, if you treat them with respect, they are quite friendly for the most part. It is nice to greet them when you enter a store - (Bonjour, Madame). They prefer to help you rather than have you pick up the merchandise. Restaurants do not rush diners in and out to turn tables - the table is yours until you are ready to leave so you normally have to specifically request the check, etc.

I do find myself a little baffled by tedgales characterization of Americans as intensely hostile and violent. As an American I haven't experienced either.

I have had many extremely pleasant interactions with French people in Paris and in provincial France, with never a hint that anybody disliked Americans.

I think some of the perceptions of rudeness among the French come from misunderstandings of the fundamental differences between our rules of courtesy and theirs.

I have sometimes had conversations with French people about the differences in manners between US culture and French culture, and they have always been surprised that things that are second nature to them are not second nature to us. Saying bonjour and au revoir upon entering and leaving a shop fall into that category. In fact, saying bonjour before engaging in any conversation seems to fall into the same category. It seems to appear rude to many French people if you just embark on a conversation without a preliminary greeting.

I have heard people say that the French are rude because they refuse to understand our attempts to speak French and answer any comment we make in French by speaking English. In my opinion, what is going on here is that the French people are as eager to practice their English as we are to practice our French. In my experience, an attempt to communicate with me in my own language is a sign of trying to be helpful, even if from my point of view I would rather be speaking to them in my flawed French.

"Sometimes busy waiters with too much or too little education may not observe all the usual attitudes you may be used to but does not mean they hate Americans."

Most French waiters are career waiters who have trained for the job so never say they lack education! Their attitude is different to an American waiter's yes, but that has nothing to do with their education level, it is to do with cultural differences, and respect.

Accept that things will be different in France (or anywhere in Europe for that matter), no ice, no airco, small beds, meals taking hours, service being "slow" (at least by US standards!), food sometimes not what you are used to, and if you can accept all that you will have a wonderful holiday.

Go for it!

What are planning on wearing?

We spent 8 days in Paris last year, as an add on to a trip to Scandinavia. My husband didn't really think he would like it.

Guess who's heading back for 6 weeks later this year?? He absolutely LOVED it and now we will spend 2 weeks in Paris and the rest of the time exploring southern France.

The suggestions above are all good; common courtesy and good manners go a long way towards feeling welcomed - in France or anywhere for that matter.

We are planning our 9th trip to France this fall. Many people have said the same to us that the French are rude. Our comment is always the same---"When was the last time you were there?" Their answer is the same---"We'll we've never been there, but we've heard that."

Read the common courtesy tips in the above posts and you will be treated kindly.

Of all the places we've been, we feel the most welcome in France----enough said.

Hi rol,

Your DH's friends are at least a decade out of touch.

Not only are the French not anti-American, the government has spent a number of years working on teaching those in trades popular with tourists how to be more welcoming and friendly.

The perception of dislike for Americans comes mostly from those visitors who don't bother to take the time to learn what is expected of guests visiting strangers.

They really do think that it is important for someone to say "bonjour" (or bon soir) prior to doing or saying anything else.

They expect "s'il vous plait" and "merci" as a matter of course.

They think that people who offer to pay in US dollars instead of Euro are dolts.

Despite what your husbands acquaintances might have told him offers of nylons, chocolate and American cigarettes will not be met with approval.

Enjoy France.

"french people do not like americans and are rude to them"

I have to say that never in my life have I seen this phenomenon. Not just by Frenchpeople towards Americans, but by anyone anywhere towards visitors from an unpopular country.

Some people in once-occupied Europe, or those former British Empire nations that brainwash their young into believing all their problems are the fault of a nation that stopped governing them 50 years ago or more, often mutter behind their backs at a foreigner from a country they believe has damaged theirs (or, late at night, after a few drinks, tell them what they think). But I've never, ever, seen this turn into rudeness during routine tourist activity.

If rolfene's husband is hearing different, he's socialising with "multiple sources" of restricted social skills. There are lots of reasons an American might choose to regard some French behaviour as rude (Nikki's excellent note lists some of them). Only the truly crass will assume that what they perceive as rudeness reflects someone else's attitudes to his nation.

The experiencer of rudeness might just be wrong (he might think that not being given the bill in a restaurant within 0.3 milliseconds of arriving is "rude"), he might be unaware he's just offended someone (handling fruit at a market stall is ill-mannered in France) or he might just be the kind of obnoxious git who invites rudeness (Parisians suffer boors and fools about as graciously as New Yorkers). Or a gazillion other things.

One true lesson about the husband's "multiple sources" is that many Americans do leave France convinced they're being victimised. In 100% of cases, they would do better to examine why they think that than passing on unfounded explanations for a phenomenon they may well have misunderstood anyway.

<< He has heard from multiple sources that french people do not like americans and are rude to them >>

I've had this said to me as well. Every time I ask the person what towns in France they have been to where they have been treated poorly. Without fail, every single person has then stated that they have never been to France.

Tell your husband to go back to "those people" and ask them where and when the French were rude to them. I guarantee he will receive the same answer as I.

Yes, I have experienced rudeness in France. I have also experienced rudeness in America. And, on occasion, I am rude.

Have been to France (Paris several times, Loire Valley, Provence, Strasbourg and a few other cities) a number of times over a 40 year period; have never been treated rudely or unkindly so far, as a matter of fact, just the opposite most of the time.

We had rented a car in Avignon and on the day to turn it in, we put the wrong gas and it stopped in front of a tire place that was ready to close.
The tire guy put it in his store (pushed it in--I speak VERY VERY little French--can read well).In the waiting room was a couple, who at first didn't say much, but after apologizing for their bad English, said they would take us back to our hotel.
In the meantime the tire guy was talking to EuropaCar or whoever. Having to make MANY phone calls. Staying past his closing.
The nice couple returned us to the hotel. The car got picked up 'sometime" and there were no charges to our credit card for any of it. That doesn't seem very rude to me.

Need to add, the couple became our go between with the tire guy, explaining our situation, etc. Their English was quite proficient but they were apologetic.

My wife has had quite a few problems in France and she is French. Okay French Canadian. On many, many occasions the French have asked me (native English speaker) to translate for them what my wife has just said to them in french. I love translating my wife's french into french. It really pissses her off.

I strongly suggest your husband not learn Canadian french before you go to France.

I can't believe this is a serious question.

I don't think the French dislike Americans, but we were paid what the speaker said was a BIG compliment when we used our French in restaurants - that we seemed like Canadians!

Ah my point about education might have been missunderstood

too little - then may not understand what the tourist is asking for so does the wrong thing, brings the wrong drink etc

too much - is keen to show his outstanding skills at understanding and may offer too much information. bring too much ice as he knows that americans like ice, when the customer thought he had made it clear, etc

As you say in France being a waiter is a career, not a job for those waiting to be actors etc.

Some say that Parisian are a bit distant. I've never had a problem.

It might help not to be too loud and learn a few starter words such as hello, good-bye, thank you and you're welcome. That usually causes a smile and go from there.

We were once in a train station when we saw a bit of a commotion. I believe a trainmaster was accusing an American student of changing the date on her train pass. She was just starting to cry.

She seemed to have a growing crowd on her side until she decided that the way to go was to curse at him. That definitely turned the crowd against her.

Ah, a teenager behavior carried onto adulthood. Less one knows about the situation, the more one is certain about the situation in black and white terms.

OK, I think we've nailed this one.

mamcalice, I did not characterize Americans as hostile or violent.

But I've never seen a streetlight in France, nor been given the finger nor been shouted at in public (except once in Paris, by a crazy). I've experienced all 3, mercifully rarely, in the US. (And here in Canada too, btw.)

During our first trip in 1972, we were admiring the wrought iron work on the doors of Notre Dame. A well-dressed elderly mqan engaged us in conversation and bought us a coffee. He was from the WWII era and was still thanking Americans, even those who were obviously too young to make any contriburtion.

The French were anti-American during the civil rights era and the US involvement in Vietnam. That animosity was filled with historic irony.

We made a trip in the 1980's when the people were universally extremely rude and intolerant. After the Albertville Olympics and the national campaign to act human, the problem has seemed to disappear. There is still a problem with the Parisians and the way others speak French.

No streetlights, Ted? What is the proper etiquette for bumping into a Parisian on a dark street corner?

Damn android autocorrect. I wrote streetfight - guess I should have typed street....fight

In my experience the French men are some of the most polite and courteous people I have encountered. It never fails if I am on a bus or train or going on stairs, a French man will reach down and carry my bag every time. And I certainly appreciate that!

what? those cheese-eating surrender-monkeys? Darn them all. Darn them all to heck!

(It's the Brits and French who don't like each other, sort of, we've been having jolly wars for and against for centuries. I'm not aware of the French not liking Americans. I thought some Americans turned against the French a few years ago - remember 'Freedom Fries'?).

There's also some confusion I've seen in people's minds on this forum between not necessarily approving of a country and its actions, but that not effecting how you view the individual citizens. America's foreign policies do get a lot of criticism in Europe. If you are a certain type of extreme patriot American it seems that you are able to translate that into 'doesn't like Americans'. You know, can't bear to hear a word that's 'anti-American' in all the meanings of that phrase. We are not so hung up on our national identities in Europe. Criticise our country and we don't imagine you are criticising us personally.

Go to France. Mind your Ps and Qs. Have a lovely holiday.

Everything depends on your perspective.

I have been to France numerous times and had only one or two contacts that I consider rude (no more than you would find anywhere else).

However, the French in general are more reserved than Americans and service staff tends to be more professional and less gushingly friendly (and silly IMHO) than you often see in the US. Also, people do not go areound grinning all day - or shout have a nice day at everyone they encuonter. Some people thinks that means they are rude. These are the same people who think New Yorkers are rude - when we are merely busy and moving faster than they are.

However, if he really beleives the French are rude I'm sure he will find someone who is.

It bears repeating: France really is a lovely place (for the most part). Even if the French people were as rude as they are reputed to be in certain circles, their country would still be well worth visiting.

Fortunately, they are not. So go!

Colduphere - too funny re: French Canadian. We recently flew through Montreal on the way to Paris, so of course started to hear French much sooner in the journey than usual. Being most used to hearing Parisian French, Canadian French did sound funny to my ears, though I couldn't pick out exactly what the differences were. Glad to hear I'm not the only one...

<<We made a trip in the 1980's when the people were universally extremely rude and intolerant. After the Albertville Olympics and the national campaign to act human, the problem has seemed to disappear.>> Strangely I made a trip in the 80s as well, spending a month in France over a summer. People weren't universally anything - so many were very nice and engaging. I had a lovely time. As much of this post seems to point out, whenever you make a blanket statement, you go down a dangerous path. I'm certain there are plenty of others with great experiences from pre-Albertville. As others have said, if you go looking for rudeness, you'll probably find it.

i did research before my trip to France on this very subject. After visiting i came to two preconcieved conclusions that were justly vindicated:

1. The French are simply a very proud people. any effort to speak a few key phrases goes a long way and met with smiles
2. Parisians are in just as much of a hurry as New Yorkers.

That said, i've encountered far worse attitudes in DC or NY than anyplace i traveled in all of Europe. (All you have to do is fly back to JFK and have Keesha scold you for not having your passport already out) Some Americans tend to stick out like sore thumbs by talking loudly, wearing ridiculous fanny packs with gleaming white sneakers, and complaining how everything is different. Every Parisian i encountered outside of service industry was pleasant and accomodating. I'm not saying go buy Rosetta Stone... just make an effort to "fit in" and you'll be among us that can't wait to go back

Nona1 makes a great point. I've had several conversations with French people (and other Europeans) over the years about US policies, politicians, government, etc. The conversation typically doesn't last long when I tell them I agree with what they're saying. I certainly never took it personally.

Dunia - my favourite example, as it happens every trip is ... Quelle heure est-il?

In France it sounds like ... Quelle heure est-il?

When my wife says it, it sounds like ... urtil.

Which leads to the person saying something like ... Excusez-moi madame. Je n'ai aucune idée de ce que vous avez dit. Monsieur, comprenez-vous ce qu'elle a dit?

It makes my holiday.

I assume some people sometimes mix up what is the norm and what is the exception.

I guess you can say that the average waiter in France can be reserved, compared to his American counterpart. But so is any waiter between Sevilla and Helsinki.
You are not supposed to handle fruits with bare hands. Fine, but same goes for Italy or elsewhere.
You say Bonjour when you enter a (small) store - but I've also been greeted a zillion times when I was entering a small store in the States. You obviously don't scream Bonjour into each corner of the store when you go into Galleries Lafayette.

Actually, it is a total myth that it is local customs in France to throw yourself at the mercy of a waiter or accept lousy service. They will not make a fuzz about nothing, but if the restaurant should not get the meals right or the sommelier brings the wrong wine at a wrong temperature you can experience what happens when monsieur le client is losing his patience. It may still be in a polite tone if you can't understand the language, but the content can be crystal clear in what the customer thinks of the waiter and the establishment.

cold --
Other side of the coin. I speak a little French from my Foreign Service days, though it's a bit rusty now. It worked in France last time. But I was surprised during a short trip to Montreal last fall that no one seemed to understand me. I mean, no one. They switched to English and didn't appear annoyed (smart, with a paying customer).

I've kept out of this because I smell a troll.

That's interesting Fra_Diavolo. I think most would say that French from France is much much easier to understand than French in Canada (there are a few variations up here). The French are much more precise. So I would have thought your French would be easily understandable in Montreal.

Someone may have an answer.

I don't smell a troll, but then again I seldom do.

I know this is an attitude held by many, and I have encountered it over and over again when I say I am going to France. And it isn't held exclusively by people who have never been there; I have had conversations with people who describe their bad experiences in France. I am never sure whether to ascribe this to misunderstanding, which is probably the case a good bit of the time; or to general lack of comfort in unfamiliar surroundings; or to provocation; or to self-fulfilling prophecy.

I occasionally watch Canadian news in French, and every time I do it occurs to me that the accent and intonation sound very much like what my elderly neighbors in the Périgord sound like. It's a kind of nasal twang and the overemphasis of final syllables, like they're talking through a kazoo.

I think a lot of it is people who expect rudenss and conflict and then either see it where it isn't or cause it.

My second trip to Paris we encountered some people going the same place and decided to share a cab - before we realized they were hauling a ton of luggage. Long story short - at the end of the ride they were outraged when they were charged extra for luggage - and started shouting about being cheated. The official rate sheet - which the cabbie had, clearly showed the specific (minimal) charge but they went on at a great rate - louder and louder - about not wanting to be cheated. We paid for their luggage (they didn't know) just to get them to shut up and stop embarassing us. And they were still convinved they were right - even without a word of French (and I had enough to red the rate info).

Voila! Rude french cab driver trying to cheat them.

It's very hard to generalize about spoken Canadian French.

I agree it's not a euphonious accent. But the best Quebec French is very good and very lightly and pleasantly accented.

The worst "joual" and - lower still on the scale - really bad Ontario French are horrid, a linguistic abomination and full of quite unnecessary Anglicisms.

Acadien French is a mystery to me. Meaning I can't follow it, not that I haven't heard it.

I'd say the standard of spoken French is far more even in France, though I admit I've never dealt with the rural peasantry or the urban underclass.

NO! I have been to France 5 times and had no hint of rudeness. Although I don't speak French, I always try and have learned enough to get by on. We do make an effort to not be too loud at restaurants and other public places, are polite and patient and have had great experiences.

My husband has a theory that the rudeness people say they encounter is their own rudeness being reflected back on them. I HAVE seen some behavior from my fellow Americans that I want to apologize for and it makes me cringe. (Please don't snap at people to get their attention)!

I remember a local man at a cafe making a point to ask me where I am from and saying, "welcome"...no rudeness at all.

If your husband won't go...go on your own. Do try to learn a few words and phrases, smile and you will have a great time. France is amazing...don't miss it!

At one time, the Cabinet minister responsible for my department was an Acadien from Nova Scotia. At Christmas he wished us all a "Yoyeux Noel". I was gobsmacked.

tedgale - I have, in Dijon. Surprised me as I was in a bar, waiting to be seated for dinner.

Someone on the sidewalk outside where I was, started yelling. One of the men at the bar went outside and they proceeded to punch and wrestle each other.

The locals didn't think much of it, as if it happened frequently. Kind weird.

That was probably a Roman outside that bar. If you had been socialized with Asterix cartoons like us in Europe, you would have known that fist fights are a daily exercise in Gaul. Especially after too much magic potion or with Romans around to beat up.
http://www.free-hdwallpapers.com/wallpapers/entertainment/46499.jpg

. I'm certain there are plenty of others with great experiences from pre-Albertville. As others have said, if you go looking for rudeness, you'll probably find it.
_____
I do not look for it. We have made live-long friends with people from other coutries. We just came back from the UK and Ireland and they are among the nicest people we have ever encountered. And the Spanish and Italians are extremely gracious and kind when you attempt to speak their language.

No - but as my French son who grew up in France and many of his relatives claim the French are rude to everyone, even the French!

I have tried very, very hard to learn a few words of Scottish. But they still speak back to me in complete gibberish.

Just a couple of comments.

I completely agree that formailty of address is much more important, the French generally are not as direct, almost all queries, conversations, greetings start with "Bonjour, madame or monsieur, " or the person's name if you know it, rather than launching straight in as we Americans tend to do.

I've been taking French for 3 years in a structured class of from 8-10, a core group of 5 have been at it for the full 3 years. Our instructor said last month, that if we were all in agreement, she thought we could start to use "tu" (tutoyer) as an address instead of "vous".

Apart from the occasional difficult fontionnaire, which could be anywhere, the French have been helpful, kind and welcoming to us.

Hi FD,

>I speak a little French from my Foreign Service days, though it's a bit rusty now. It worked in France last time. But I was surprised during a short trip to Montreal last fall that no one seemed to understand me.<

I've been able to get over the years with my increasingly rusty and out of date Parisian French, but on a visit to Alsace the proprietor of the hotel where we were staying requested that I please speak to him in German.


I'm not sure if it was because Parisian was too different from what he grew up with or that he found my Brooklyn accent unbearable.

I have a feeling that your husbands friends are either dolts, or have never been to France. Pick one.

I also do not understand why any negative interaction with a service person is blamed on them not liking your nationality.How pray tell do they even know if you are American, I know I sound just like an American .. wear same clothes , watch same tv shows,, I live near Canadian/American border . It seems a bit conceited to assume that all english speaking tourists are American, they are not, so perhaps they "hate" the Aussies, Brits and Canadains too? No, of course not,, how about , the waiter just had a fight with his wife, or his dog died that morning, and he is just having a bad day? Does anyone ever just think they are freaking humans, and like anyone some have good and bad days and you may accidently be on the recieving end of a grump, who may well be grump equally to everyone !

The rudest waiter we had was in Hawaii.. do Hawaiians hate Canadians?

Cathinjoetown: if you and your classmates addressed each other by your first names, it would be anomalous to use vous. Your teacher should have made the switch long ago, IMO. If you were Monsieur and Madame to each other, that's a different story.

Colduphere, I was married to a Scot for over 20 years and still had to ask for a translation.

ted, I agree, but that's how our instructor wanted it although we always addressed her and each other by our first names.

"if you and your classmates addressed each other by your first names, it would be anomalous to use vous. Your teacher should have made the switch long ago, IMO. If you were Monsieur and Madame to each other, that's a different story."

I beg to disagree. You can very well address people (your colleagues at work for instance) by their first name and still use vous.

Anyway, verb endings are more predictable in the 2nd P. Pl. That's why I've always preferred it.

I think it would be very useful to address classmates as tu. I never get a chance to practice the familiar form of verbs and would be pretty clueless if I were in a situation that called for it.

I’ve just reread the OP. A troll, as suggested by Kerouac? Perhaps. This subject has been discussed endlessly in many threads. I have a problem with the essential question of the OP. Do you honestly see the complexities and subtleties of the two countries so simplistically?

To respond in kind: (simplistically)

Yes, I have had some negative experiences in Paris. By far, my experiences have been been rich, exciting,and wonderful.

Be strong, curious and welcoming to new experiences. Don’t allow yourself to be 'shut down' before you even set foot in Paris, and in the rest of France. Stop being ruled by preconceptions, or a poll of ‘how you should experience your own life’.

When thinking about it, we call most of our neighbors by their first names as they do us but it's "vous" all the way round. Maybe there's a progression, first Mme or M. and of course vous, then first names and vous, then first names and tu!

As rolfene hasn't replied to a single post since 2006 I rather doubt, copperandjade, that you'll get much of reply.

I must say, it is true. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Frank people hate Amercians. It begins small, a rise of the nose, a wince of the eye and before you know it...yep...crepes in your pants. Mostly it comes from those that were born in the Petit Mime regions, near the villages of Marceau and Marcel. Amercians locked them all in boxes when they were little and would not let them out. To this day the hatred simmers. They did get some relief though when they brainwashed Walt Disney and had him create the Small World ride...the song, the horror...



dave

I don't think rolfene is a troll becuase I remember my first trip to Paris years ago. I was told by some people, one was a relative, who told me why go there? The people are rude. Funny when I know they had never visited. My friend who went with me didn't like it and never told me why but ended up living there for 2 years.

On my second trip to visit her, I took my mom with me who had a bad experience. While getting on the bus to my friend's flat, a Parisian woman would not move out the way that is reserved for bikes, strollers or things with wheels. Well, of course, that was were we went with out luggage. Sure enough the bus turned and one suitcase took my mom out at the knees, knocking her into the woman. The woman wasn't old and boy did she start cursing in French. As my mom went down she hit her head and couldn't get up. The woman was ok and she stepped over my mom and went to an open seat which there where plenty of. My poor mom was laying on the floor and I could barely help her up. My mom felt horrible and kept trying to apologize and the woman kept cursing at her until my friend finally said real loud in English, she should apologize to you for not moving out of the way. At that point we knew the woman spoke English and we know she heard us when we got on the bus and said how she should move as there was space for her to move to. We got on the bus at the same time.

That one incident in Paris in less than 24 hrs on arrival, has caused one person to really dislike Paris and the people. Now would all Parisian's have been like that? Probably not.

We were in Edinburgh two weeks and Mrs Adu thought one guy was speaking Bulgarian until he said, "Aye."

rolfene,

Leave your husband at home and go yourself.

Good idea ParisAmsterdam!

I've been all across France and had many moments of kindness that the French went out of their way to be helpful.
Americans who go unprepared of the basics will get what they think is rude. Knowing basic French words for hello, good bye thank you, will get you far. I've seen Americans yell at waiters for their check, a no, no, Pick up merchandise in a boutique, a no, no. Order something they didn't know what it was and complain.

I didn't know what a duvet was, or whatever those things to clean your butt are called, on my first trip to France. So I washed my clothes in mine. I got snapped at for doing that. How was I to know?

duvet is a blanket, I think you mean bidet but I think it's trolling you are doing 9as usual)

Unsubstantiated bigotry!

How long will this pointless thread continue?

One of the most poignant days of my life occurred about three years ago when visiting the American war cemetery near Normandy and there were many French school children there standing at complete attention as they played the US National Anthem and each placing a flower on one of the graves. It almost brought tears to my eyes and should dispel this silly notion. Lots of American boys lie in cemeteries in France and gave their lives so that France might be free and the vast majority of the French people know that.

Open your mind and heart, Paris is possibly the most fabulous travel experience out there. Go to Normandy, there is an American flag flying in every village and new memorials to our soldier/liberators being built every year. Don't buy into Faux News. The French people may dislike some of our government's policies( doesn't any thinking person) but they certainly don't hate us. There are rude people everywhere, probably even in your own neighborhood! Life is what you make it and if you can afford to see France it is definitely your loss if you don't. Read "Is Paris Burning" and contemplate what could have been destroyed. Or just forget a fascinating place and go to Hawaii, now there is an interesting place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Open your minds...I think Kerouac is right! I went and looked and Rolfene (kind of sounds like rolfing or throwing up) has not replied to about 10-12 threads she's started since 2006. And she's gotta be loving this one--about 75 entries?

After five years living in Paris (and traveling there several times a year for years before) and now back in the States, I can only say I wish even 50% of the people I meet here were as kind as 99% of the people I dealt with there.

I can't tell you how many people have said to me, since I returned here, "Oh, I was there in 19XX. You know, they hate us."

I usually reply, "Really? They don't hate me. What did you do?"

In Paris, as in MOST places, you usually get back what you give.

I could not agree more.
BUT really this is an old saw, and I think ST.Cirq had it right 'way back. NOT a serious question for now--let alone ever.
BUT I will point out to our "maybe" holier than thou Americans, WE that is WE have such provincial language skills, and if someone comes up to us asking in less than perfect English, how to do such and so, a LOT of people will say "no comprendez" and walk on. Make the EFFORT, people. I have ALWAYS found that to be true--particularly in France for 50 years of travelling there--that if you try to communicate, they will try to help.
All the other replies have also offered insights--they are naturally reserved, VERY VERY polite, etc. AND they expect that in return. REspect it.

I'm sure there are French people who dislike Americans. Everyone has a prejudice.

Why would you care about someone else's problem.

Go, be yourself and if being yourself is a treat for others, you will be well received wherever you go.

How I wish I had read toupary6's response. That's it exactly.


"I can't tell you how many people have said to me, since I returned here, "Oh, I was there in 19XX. You know, they hate us."

I usually reply, "Really? They don't hate me. What did you do?"

Mon Dieu! A friend of mine, quite a few years older than I am, who had never traveled in Europe, just returned from a week in Paris. She absolutely loved it, and said the very best thing was how kind everyone was to her. She had a very active week, took marvelous photos of Giverny and Versailles, and hopes to be able to return. She also really didn't know much French at all but mastered "please", "thank you", and "good day", which she used liberally and garnered respect from all and sundry.

BC

@bookchick, that fits with my first experiences, including my first trip as an adult. I was very good at reading menus -- beyond that, I had a vocabulary of MAYBE 50 words. Somehow, I managed to have conversations with people who didn't speak English.

As a storeowner said to me, "If people are of good will, they will understand one another."

Of course, several years later, with very good French, I kept meeting people who wanted to practice their English. We worked it out.

My other favorite, "They all speak English, you know. They just pretend they don't."

I answer, "Oh, so you're prepared to speak French with them when they come here?"

Obviously, I've had plenty of practice with these remarks.

Amen toupary

I usually reply, "Really? They don't hate me. What did you do?"
______

We have been traveling for 40 years and been to over 40 countries, including a number of trips to Paris, and the only people with whom we have ever had consistent trouble were the Guataleman military and Parisians.

And just to make things worse:

We live in Manhattan and the rudest and most agreesive tourists are French speaking. To be honest, however, I cannot discern between the various regional French accents and the Québécois.

As noted above, things have gotten better over the past twenty years and Paris remains one of my favorite cities.

Thinking back, I remember when it was the Americans who didn't like The French during the Bush administration.
Some ignorant politician called for a boycott on french fries, not knowing they are a Belguem original.
French Wine was being poured in gutters, French products boycotted. What a terrible, foolish time it was.

We were in France last June and were blown away with how amazing the people were. I've never been treated so well traveling anywhere before. Go and have a great time.

<I'm sure there are French people who dislike Americans> The bigger question is, <How many Americans dislike the French> The French people are wonderful. Found that in the 80's, 90's and our most recent trip. We had great experiences, both in Paris and the countryside. I can remember one unpleasentry with a waiter and that includes about 100 days on the ground. But so many helpful experiences. Just don't go with an 'attitude'and you will be fine.

The people who say the French don't like us have never even been there themselves. We have been to Paris 8 or 9 times and never encountered French people that did not like us and in fact Americans could take a lesson in manners from them. We even know people who boycotted anything French during Bush regime and then few years later go to Paris....Go figure!

It's an urban myth/stereotype. Not over the top fake nice like Americans but nice especially if you're respectful.

Good manners are the same all over the world. I have been travelling where Americans have been present-they needed to tone down a little. They were clearly wealthy and were determined to show it. That never works, anywhere.

I agree Christopher. I hate dining with an American group in France. They can be so loud, you can see the waiters cringe
and have seen them told to tone it down. But, as an American, no offence, I suffered more from the Germans in groups.

My very candid reply....When you travel anywhere outside the US...you are outside the US! So do not expect everything to be just like is here, it won't be, but isn't that just why we love to go?
So first, be nice, be polite, blend in...leave your team baseball hats etc. at home, be curious, have an attitude of discovery and wanting to learn what life is like where ever you go.
I see "Ugly Americans" with fanny packs and cameras hanging from their necks, traveling in obnoxious loud packs, and I want to scream, we are not all like that! so just don't be one of those.
I found Paris to be delightful and most gracious, maybe that is because I made the effort. Parisians are very proud and they have a right to be...it is one of if not the most fabulous cities
I have seen.
As in life, you get back what you give, so smile and expect a fabulous experience.

I believe there to be "Ugly" in many groups. I have never had one issue in France. Never anyone being rude. I love being there whether it is the countryside or streets of Paris, and if they were rude I doubt it would stop me from enjoying their country - so rich in many things. Never let anyone's opinion good or bad keep you from seeing for yourself, at least one time, France and many other countries.

Welcome to France wherever you're from, if you are kind and polite, we'll be too!
It is Mother's Day today in France.

I am willing to leave my baseball hat at home, even though it is a "Les Expos de Montréal" hat and therefore quite popular in Paris, but I cannot leave my fanny pack at home. It goes with everything I wear and gives my body a more natural shape.

Et bonne fête des mères!

gives my body a more natural shape

LOL!!

BC

I want to thank everyone for their responses. My husband sat down and read all of them and he is now willing to look at going to France! You have all made a major impact on my future! Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out

I'm very happy to hear that, rolfene. I hope you have a wonderful trip, and that you'll share your experiences when you return.

I'm sure that even a troll like that has a useful psychiatric value for all of the people who posted with sincerity.

Kerouac dude, clearly you need to leave the psychiatric assessment to those with appropriate medical training. It was with total sincerity and honesty that I posted my question. My husband grew up in a small town where there are very rigid values....looks like you don't have the ability to realize that other people may not be as "worldly" as you and have much more limited experiences. The remarks posted here were pleasantly surprising for him and helped him realize that maybe the viewpoints he was raised with may not be totally accurate.

So despite what your cynical reasoning may tell you, the remarks posted here truly made a difference in my life as we will be heading to France next spring

Okay, the troll has now out and preening. The two different styles of writing absolutely confirm my original evaluation. Sweet little "Mrs. Naive-and-submissive" is now calling people "dude" and talking about psychiatric assessment -- which is the term that "she" would have used regarding her "husband" in the original post if that had been the least bit authentic.

Dude, if you are going to troll, at least maintain your gender assessment until the subject finally dies.

This will be my last response. Uh, I am a female medical student and most of us in med school are in the habit of calling each other dude after long nights on call(again I ask that you leave the assessments to professionals)....I'm very comfortable with psychiatric diagnoses and definitions and clearly you need to see someone to help you with that trust problem.

Again, I want to thank everyone for your contributions!

Well looks like I'm late to this party, but no I have never experienced hatred or rudeness from the French as an American tourist.

rolfene:

I SO understand your husband's disbelief that Paris/France would be enjoyable, and I hope your experience will reward both of you.

My father's sister and her entire progeny have never left the borders of the US (Canada would be too exotic of a destination, and you just know Mexico would scare them to death), and they are firmly convinced that we are "wrong" about liking the French. Yes, I'm sure they were "Freedom Fries" idiots.

Now that I think of it, my own father, who did see South America and part of France and England, for years thought we had to be "wrong" by visiting Paris over and over and over again until we finally dragged him to Paris with us.

And then he became a ridiculously over-the-top Francophile.

Nevertheless, I'm going to differ a bit from some of the above posts:

Someone MIGHT be rude to you. It will have nothing to do with your nationality. It might have something to do with your command of language--but even then, it just won't be that big of a deal. Everything else will be SO wonderful!

Happy planning.
AZ

When I was 18, I disliked my visits to France because I did not find the people friendly. I returned in my 40s and found the French the friendliest ever! They loved to help a big totally lost American family of 5. If we so much as opened a map, help was offered. If we asked for street directions, we were escorted! We asked the apartment lady for a restaurant and she walked us there. An old man chased us down with a handful of Euros, thinking they fell from my husband's pocket (I wish they had! But Lord knows we didn't have nearly that many Euros!). While waiting for pizzas to take on a boat, the proprietor served us wine then corked it to go. My personal favorite was staring blankly at the wine supply having no clue what to buy. A young guy (just another customer) made a recommendation of a wine popular with Americans (said Trader Joe's carries it!). It was cheap and fabulous. No wait. My favorite was the old man in Le Marais who designed an historical renovation and was so proud he summoned us into the courtyard to see it.

My husband would differ slightly but he doesn't smile and make eye contact before asking for something. Proper greetings are key. I don't speak a word of French and they loved me. But I am a big smiler.

Ah yes, smiling. I have read here that the French think people who smile too much are weird. Well, I can't help myself, I smile a lot. And I have not noticed it to be a problem in France.

As of this moment, I still don’t know if this thread was a troll, or not.


Rolfene, I still find it curious that you did not find one moment to reply even ONCE to any other threads that you OP’d from 2006, including this one, until long into the thread.


We all replied, I think, with sincerity. After several days, you finally, after a 6 year silence, chose to reply to one of your own OP’s. Does this mean that you are a troll with second thoughts, or, that you are innocent of the fact that it is simply courteous to at least respond minimally to those people who have taken their personal time to reply to your questions? Given that you have now told us that you are a medical student, it strains credulity that you are unaware of common courtesy.


You have obviously been jolted by Kerouac’s words to actually respond to one of your own OP’s… the first time in the last 6 years. I doubt that Kerouac needs psychiatric treatment (as you suggest). From my readings of the key Paris forums--- Fodor’s , TripAdvisor, AnyPortinaStorm, ThornTree-LonelyPlanet, OurParisVariations---he is a valued, intelligent, and honest contributor to all forums. I respect his thoughts and extreme creativity. Sometimes I disagree. Certainly, his writings,( about 60,000 posts?) give far more of a base to think about, contribute to a trip to Paris, and mull over, than your limited posts of the last 6 years. ALL of your own OP’s were UNANSWERED by you until very late yesterday…roughly 115 posts and several days into this thread. Perhaps you are shy.

I read that too, so many times, but found my smiling helped me.
I speak a little French, They were always patient with me
and always had fun with the French who really have a great sense of humour once you know them.

I am going to disagree with a lot of people here. I have met many rude French people. If I had to guess, I'd say that exactly the same percentage of rude Chinese, Americans, and Namibians and everyother nationality O've come across. Probably because the French I meet are human just like the rest of us.

AND it is not because you're American, or because you say bonjour, or do not say bonjour. It is because the person is a rude person. Or because they are having a bad day, or because they didn't realize they were being rude.... human nature is a fairly universal thing.

I certainly agree that there are rude people everwhere, but I believe the percentages are small. Our first trip to Paris, we were lost in the depths of the Metro and someone stopped to help. Another time exiting the Metro a women stopped to ask if we needed help and pointed us in the right direction. When we were hopelessly lost in the hinterlands looking for our Abbey Hotel, a trash collector attempted to help, but could not speak english. Walked us over to a home, rang the door bell and we had our directions. Sitting at a breakfast table with eight French people, they included us in the morning conversation. And at another B&B, when we left after three nights we were like family and I received a big hug. My wife and I love the French as we love all the the people in all the other countries we have visited. For us, it's all in how one reacts to others. If someone is all business, so be it. We just don't take offense. Besides the waiter mentioned above, I can only remember one other instance where I was upset and it was in a shop in Budapest. If someone snaps at you and says, 'don't touch the fruit', big deal. We have only spent 251 days on the ground in Europe, always had a great time and never came home with any complaints about the people. Actually, have never had any complaints about anything. Well perhaps my wife with that bed in York, UK. Oh, and that dinner I had outside of Auxerre. I didn't understand the menu and it was the organs of the animal. Wife had a lovely meal.

Who gives a flying if the OP was a troll or not. The other answers I assume were honest.

If someone is an obvious troublemaker, have fun with it. If you have a direct answer, what difference does it make who posed the question.

People seem to derive great satisfaction from thinking they are unmasking some anonymous scoundrel. They think they are highly sophistaicated and will score points when they enter cyber heaven.

And another confirmation that Kerouac is a trusted and earnest contributor here and offered one of the funnier home made videos on these boards.

Jill--My husband said the same thing. He first toured France in the late sixties, so when he took me to Paris in 1998, he was astounded at the difference in rudeness quotient. By the second day of "new 'tude", he was converted to total "I'm coming back here as much as I can" mindset.

We love to irritate the small-minded back home by telling them that the only people who consistently brought up the war in Iraq to us in our many travels throughout Europe were the Irish. And OMG, don't misunderstand--we love the Irish and have been there three times.

Of course, my father's side of the family with mini-minds automatically distrusts the Irish and all Catholics, too, so I can't irk them with it! Darn!!!!

I think the answer also depends if you are talking about Paris or other major cities, or out in small towns in the countryside. Like anywhere else in the world, typically big city dwellers may seem more stand-offish (think NYC).

Kerouac and rolfene decide to put an end to the madness:

http://tinyurl.com/bnucqpf

You're aging well, Jack.

learn some of the language, please, thank you, etc. just the basics.. paris was one of the most walkable cities.. very friendly.. super food, the countryside just as nice... act like a guest.. not a demanding american.. dress appropriately.. no shorts for me.. no jeans... no tennis shoes... but that is just me... paris was my first trip to europe.. will never forget it...

kerouac, you look great in tight white pants

Kerouac, That was a brilliant video and if I could return to the 70s today, I would.

Except that there was no Internet, hence no Fodors.

OK, that settles it, I'm not leaving the present.

kerouac is a duo citizen I believe - born and bred in America and now living in France. Q- does he hate himself?

"(handling fruit at a market stall is ill-mannered in France)"

I think that most Americans traveling in France would not ever handle fruit at a market stall if they knew it was considered rude behavior. I certainly wouldn't, but the problem is, I had no idea that handling fruit at a market stall is a rude thing to do in France, and I think that a lot of other Americans would be just as clueless about this.

Saying "Merci" and "S'il vous plait" and "Bonjour" and "Au revoir," even those these courtesies are more a part of French culture than they are in American culture, are still commonsense behaviors that anyone should easily be able to understand or predict. But how on earth is someone unfamiliar with French culture supposed to know that handling fruit in a market stall is considered bad manners, unless told beforehand?

This is a serious question. Are there books you can buy and read before traveling to France that give specific cultural information like this in addition to information about sightseeing and hotel accommodations?

"Kerouac and rolfene decide to put an end to the madness:

http://tinyurl.com/bnucqp"

I totally love this. Laugh out loud funny, and sweet at the same time.

Absolutely not. My mother and I visited Paris, France in 2007. We, too, had heard about "rude" French people. NOT AT ALL. Every store, every cafe, every place we went they were wonderful. Even the waiters would, with patience, help us order meals. Most menus are English too, but some maybe not. They listened to what we Americans described and brought us delicious meals.

The old saying applies universally....."treat others how you want to be treated"!

You'll be fine! Enjoy your trip, cherish it!

D.

<Are there books you can buy and read before traveling to France that give specific cultural information like this in addition to information about sightseeing and hotel accommodations?>

<and I think that a lot of other Americans would be just as clueless about this.>


Yes. Sure. Most guidebooks have sections about local culture, manners, expectations. You could have found out even reading here on this forum. I knew before I went about not touching stuff in the fruit and vegetable stands. It's not only Paris, same goes for Venice, and I'm sure many other places. You can research local customs same as you can look for a museum or hotel to stay at.

you also don't pick up clothing. You ask the salesperson what you want to look at unless your're in a zara or H&M.

katkat, I topped an old thread by capo for you, that's about books on the French culture.

Frenchies are are a pretty great bunch really. I'm American and have spent quite some time in France, it's all good despite the stereotype of the angry Frenchman!

"I topped an old thread by capo for you,..."

I don't know what this means.

katkat, I just topped it for you.

"katkat, I just topped it for you."

Cigale, I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this.

Ok, scroll down until you get to the thread,
Loving the French as they are

"Ok, scroll down until you get to the thread,Loving the French as they are"

I took a guess that what you meant by this was that I should scroll down the list of thread topics in the main France list until I got to one called "Loving the French as they are."

I did this, for three screens (in other words, I clicked "Next 25" twice after getting to the bottom of the first page), and I saw no such thread.

So I still have no idea what you're talking about. But at this point I'm beginning to think it's not worth the effort to figure out what you're talking about.

Thank you for trying to help. If I figure out what you're trying to show me, I'll let you know.

I don't know your problem, I'll top it for you again.

Alessandra - even my macho hubby was sold when we came thru the Metro gates during rush hour with 3 kids and 5 roller bags, immediately jamming both gates when the suitcases got stuck because we are so incredibly stupid. One guy pried mine open while another guy hoisted my daughters up and over allowing my DH to deal with his. It was horribly stressful (embarrassing) but all of the French were cool with it. They waited patiently for us to get our act together and move on.

>>Given that you have now told us that you are a medical student, it strains credulity that you are unaware of common courtesy.<<

Way off the point, but if we're stereotyping anyway, I have to say my own stereotype of medical students pushes to the other extreme!

"Rudeness" is such an elastic category, since it depends on perception, but a common factor can be self-absorption: just not being aware of the effect you might be having on the people around you, because you're not really paying attention to them. It cuts both ways. Excited/anxious/nervous new arrivals in a place are perhaps particularly prone to it - as are locals who are trying to get somewhere or are concentrating on doing their job, or whatever.

Many generalizations as well.

Our large local market provides small plastic baskets, you choose/handle your fruit or veg then hand the basket over to be weighed. If I waited for the stall owners to pick fruit for me, I would be there all day. Handling clothes? Probably not at high-end boutiques but otherwise when in doubt, watch what others are doing. Somewhere I had heard never to ask to share a course in a restaurant. That turns out, generally, to not be a problem.

I was in Paris a few weeks ago, at a café with sunny and shady tables, tables in the shade were chilly. When a sunny table opened up we took it but NOT before telling our waiter. He still chewed me out for disrupting process, I assume because he had to tell the other waiter what we had ordered (we already had our drinks). I offered to settle up with him but he was happier just being grumpy, giving me a mini-lecture on not understanding organization. BTW, the café was not that busy.

My wife ordered some sauteed baby potatoes at a Parisian restaurant during our visit there together. We were served standard deep fried potatoes instead. My wife speaks conversational French and explained the error.

Though I don't speak French I suspect the waiter's reply was something like "Dude, these are sauteed potatoes". My wife eventually prevailed, an amusing highlight of our visit.

I went on that trip expecting to dislike Paris. How wrong I was.

This is a link to the thread Learning to love the French as they are:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/learning-to-love-the-french-as-they-are.cfm

The reason it did not appear when katkat looked "in the main France list" is that the thread has no tag on it, and appears in the list of threads under Europe. All threads on the Europe board are in one list. If you search for France threads you will get a list of the threads on the Europe board that have been tagged France by the original poster.

Topping only works if you are looking at the whole Europe list or if you are looking under a country with which the thread has been tagged.

Nikki: Thank.you. I didn't know what "topping" meant to begin with, and when I made a guess that cigale was referring me to a specific thread about France, I certainly didn't know that I would not be able to find the thread unless I looked under Europe and not France, since she didn't tell me that.

Topping means adding a reply to a thread so it rises to the top of the list.

The way this board works can be confusing. I believe many if not most people just browse through all the Europe threads without viewing by country. Many people do not realize that there are not separate boards for each country, but that there is just one list for all of Europe. Selecting a country such as France operates as a filter. Cigale probably assumed you were looking at the whole list as she was, and she probably did not notice that the post she topped was not tagged as France.

Well, all's well that ends well. Thanks again, Nikki.

Mama mia. Nikki, my real life friend, thank you.
Trying to help often goes astray.

Had fun reading this whole line. We lived in France many years ago and our children were born there. The French have a different worldview and when you understand and respect it, you do just fine. Personally, we were often embarrassed by demanding Americans in Paris and quickly switched to French to not be lumped in the same category. Clearly many Americans were not demanding and made friends, as did we. A sense of openness, curiosity, flexibility and humor benefits all travelers in any culture.

Rolfene,

I stand corrected. I think it's amazing that you have found a med school where you have time to take a vacation to France. My friends who went to med school were busy almost non-stop, but maybe that was the institution they were at. Given that one of my kids is thinking of med school some day, can you break your vow and tell me what school this is? It sounds far more humane than any I've heard about.

I've been taking French for 3 years in a structured class of from 8-10, a core group of 5 have been at it for the full 3 years. Our instructor said last month, that if we were all in agreement, she thought we could start to use "tu" (tutoyer) as an address instead of "vous".>>

lol, cath - in our italian class we were on familiar terms from Day 1. italians just get there faster, i suppose.

Rolfene, please don't go. we need new blood and a many of us need a psychiatrist too.

kerouac - love the film. do you think that he looked at his back view in those white trousers? definitely the male equivalent of "does my bum look big in this! and where did they get the Sacha Distel lookalike?

French rude? Bien sur IMe - rude to everyone, even their French counterparts - non-discriminatory ruders! c' est la vie en francaise - accept it as a cultural trait to be witnessed much as Americans are considered overly friendly by many Brits and Europeans.

Paris is unlike the provinces where you will see lots of overweight people and smiling is acceptable.
Those who have not traversed France don't see the differences.
I love the French. My only bad experience was a hotel on the west coast in Brittany where a waitress was nasty, dikey and didn't like Americans.

I don't know if rolfene is a troll or not, but she certainly should be complimented for enrolling in med school as a mature student after having raised a family:

http://www.fodors.com/community/united-states/beaver-creek-activities.cfm

She is not a troll. She was asking sincere questions and a few people took exception to her requests.

The only time I have ever had a bad experience in France is in Paris. No, they are not as warm as Italians for the most part in my opinion. But, very gracious and polite and a beautiful country.

I was in a lovely restaurant in Honfleur as a solo female diner. There was a French family, old man and woman (70+ years) with a woman who seemed to be their daughter (40 or so years).

Every time I looked up from my reading, eating, etc., at least one of them, if not all three, were staring at me and talking about me. I did hear the word "American" more than once.

When they left the restaurant, they all stared at me while passing my table. What was all that about????


Sorry, but I did find it to be quite rude.

joannyc I can't speak for the family but maybe they were impressed to see a solo American woman brave enough to have dinner on her own in a foreign country. I understand it may seem rude but maybe their English was not good enough to talk to you. I'm sure it was not a negative feeling

Every time I looked up from my reading, eating, etc., at least one of them, if not all three, were staring at me and talking about me. I did hear the word "American" more than once.

When they left the restaurant, they all stared at me while passing my table. What was all that about????>>

joannyc - I've been looked at like that in more places than i care to mention, including in the US. we refer to it in our family as the "two heads" look - ie they are looking at us as if we'd got two heads.

it's the natural curiosity of people about someone who is different.

Well, age has its privileges, but if they caught my eye, I'd smile and raise my glass to them.

...or perhaps a finger.

There are people in every country, including our own, who do not like people who are "different". They will not travel outside the U.S. because they will not feel comfortable being in the midst of "different". The thing is, people really are the same, wherever you go. People are people, with all their fears, all their likes, hopes and dreams. My husband and I have traveled in France many times. Once, years ago, when we were cashing travelers' checks in a bank in a small town in Normandy, we asked the teller where we might find a good place for lunch. The assistant manager overheard, came over to advise, then put on his jacket and personally walked us to a lovely restaurant. Another time, when we were unsure of which direction in the Metro in Paris, two elderly ladies personally walked us to the correct platform. Our French was not great, and their English was not great, but they wanted to help and we connected. Since then we have traveled all over the world. People all over really are just like you and me. There are good and bad, positive and negative, wherever you go.

joannyc,, well dining as a solo female was not that unusual, I have done it many times, as have thousands of other female visitors to france, but I am amused that you got defensive and felt the people were being rude or saying hostile or negative things about you.

Perhaps they thought you were attractive looking, or liked your hair do, or admired your solo travel .. and why did you not just smile at them as suggested, even raised your glass, perhaps you missed an opportunity.

Another thing, sometimes people ARE a bit rude, perhaps they were just some of those folks, you have them in America, and we have them in Canada,, so lets stop the stupid race/nationality sterotyping which for some reason always involves thinking the worst of another entire nation based on isolated behaviours of a few people.. like everyone in America is not a gun toting redneck,, but what if I was a tourist and met one or two of them, then would it be fair for me to say all Americans were like that? of course not.

PS I find the Italians so phoney,, lol, so I guess I sterotype a bit too,,

Joannyc was probably switching her fork and knife every time she ate a bite - dead giveaway.

Oui.

<< immimi on Jun 10, 12 at 10:35am ...or perhaps a finger>>

LOL! That was my thought, too!

I tend to doubt that they were impressed by my solo dining. I have done it thousands of times throughout the world. And, yes, I have had some women and men approach me and tell me they were impressed with my independence.

This family didn't even crack a bit of a smile throughout their staring.

I don't pretend to know if they were saying hostile or negative things about this "American" so, no, that wasn't it.

St. Cirq, I assume you are being facetious. However, I hold a fork in my left hand and a knife in my right hand. How do you eat?

I really don't know what it means. I've dined alone so often
in France and had great encounters with people seating next to me. No stares, nothing uncomfortable but plesasures.

Me, too, cigalechanta!

This was an unusual and uncomfortable exception.

And why would you think they even cared what you were doing?

Full disclosure: I am in love with France and the French. I have never been treated better anywhere -- and I've been a bit of a nomad.

When I lived in Paris, someone said to me, "They know you love them, so they respond in kind."

You don't have to go that far, but a little civility goes a long way.

I have seen a number of rude people in Paris. They were not French.

I was posting while cigalechanta was posting.

I have been in Paris with her. She is well received because she is warm and open.

Try it sometime.

Wheever someone tells me they have been "mistreated" in Paris, I can usually tell why.

katkat1950: This is a serious question. Are there books you can buy and read before traveling to France that give specific cultural information like this in addition to information about sightseeing and hotel accommodations?

There is a series of books, which seems to be dying out in popularity. They are called "Culture Shock [name a country]"

For example, type in "Culture Shock France" in Amazon and you can read the reviews.

For those who find they are going through culture shock when in a foreign country, it'll be both fun and enlightening to read "Culture Shock, USA" to find out what difference customs and habits we have - things that we take for granted but come as a shock to visitors to the US.


Cowboy: I only had a couple of those Asterix books when growing up, but that's what, as a kid, I thought France was really like. Imagine my surprise on my first visit to France!

Most of those books are written to sell books (a little humor included) and have little to do with the reality.

toupary6, I think you need to re-read my threads if it is to my threads to which you are responding.

@joannyc, do you often think it is about you? You are hardly the first person who has misinterpreted the French.

However, since you brought it up, I have dined alone on numerous occasions in France. Before I lived there, I preferred to travel alone, so that's how it was. I was always well treated. As far as fellow diners, conversation if I wanted, left alone if I wanted.

Why would you assume their reaction to you was negative?

toupary6, << do you often think it is about you>>

No, I do not OFTEN think it is about me as I don't typically run into such behavior.

I usually have very nice dining experiences and often have interaction with those dining around me.

Do you read previous threads?

<<This was an unusual and uncomfortable exception.>>

@joannyc, I'm sorry you had an uncomfortable experience.

My question referred not to your experience in Honfleur, but to why you would think I had singled you out, out of nearly 170 posts.

Yes, I read every post before I respond to a thread. There was nothing particularly interesting about yours to make me single you out.

Clearly, you want to believe I did.

I rest my case.

Jill02--I loved your story. I can just picture it.

For others...
I am wondering if the references to "Culture Shock" is perhaps the "Culture Smart" series. I don't know the "Culture Shock" series, but we have found the "Culture Smart" series to be helpful, not so much for France (we were pretty well versed there already***) but in other countries. They have really helped keep us from acting like idiots from the moment we touch the turf.

I've often related in posts about an acquaintance who insisted she was treated rudely in France, and she actually teared up and did a little sob when telling me her experience in a restaurant. She had no clue that she had to ASK for the check. She thought the waiter was purposely ignoring her when he was actually being polite.

A far more serious problem is knowing what hand gestures mean in every country. Here's a funny article about that:
http://www.languagetrainers.co.uk/blog/2007/09/24/top-10-hand-gestures/

By the way, we were just in Vegas for a family celebration, and my husband noticed that the bartender poolside was not serving this one older gentleman. My husband was baffled because this bartender was particularly efficient and was very friendly. I was reading my Kindle at the time, and I looked up to see the gentleman in question. "Oh, that's a lay up" I said. "He was at the piano bar last night, and I heard the waitress say, 'Great, another Brit who thinks that because he's UK he gets to play by UK rules.'"

In other words, he wasn't tipping American style.

My theory is that he had probably been at the pool bar the day before, and the natural consequence of not tipping at a bar or just leaving small change was that he would be the last at the bar to get his drinks. He probably thinks Americans are rude, and his servers not familiar with UK tipping policies think HE is rude.

***follow up email for my claim that I was pretty well versed in French culture... Just to show that that when you think you know, you don't....

We thought we really did know all the rules. And generally, we've made that work. My one daughter always had this killer French accent, and because of it, we'd often get seated in the "French side" of larger restaurants away from American tourists.

However, in the Brasserie Lipp, she and I WERE treated quite rudely. We had been to Paris enough to know it was not our imagination. We were just astounded. When I got back, I wrote about our surpringly negative experience, and one poster wrote back immediately that I must have "missed the memo": Brasserie Lipp was renowned for its rude service.

Just Google "Brasserie Lipp rude" and you'll see he was right.

Now that I know, I actually intend to go back there this fall just to see if the treatment is still that bad. I'll take notes!!!

On the other hand, when we were Paris neophytes, my two girls, quite little at the time, and I wandered unknowingly into upperscale Fouquet's, a place where service has been accused of being haughty and arrogant. We were not dressed well (not scummy, but), our French was fractured, you name it, we were not ready-for-Fouquet customers. They treated my girls like princesses. I'll never forget it.

There is rude and then there is unforgiving. In other countries the people are more forgiving of not knowing all the intricacies and nuances of a culture. There are certain behavior which is universal, and then there are of course, others that are not. And that is what we are speaking about. I once forgot my etiquette in Paris and picked up a can of olive oil to read the label and was treated as if I molested a child.

The Parisians are unforgiving about not speaking their language properly. Last month a sister-in-law who is a well- traveled artist went to Paris for the first time and was told that it would be better for her to ask a question in Spanish than English.

And this jogged my memory of my first impression of France. We were taking a train from Luxembourg City to Paris. It was the usual second class comaprtment and became filled as we approached Paris. A woman in her haughtiest French said of my wife and myself, "First time in France."

If my French was better and could carry on a conversation, I would lied and said, "Deuxième."

Many, not all, Americans are intimidated by the French and justify this behavior because they too want to be part of what of they consider a more sophisticated culture.

As I stated above, I never raise my voice, rarely complain in hotels and restaurants, have made life-long friends in different countries and take umbrage at those who blame the visitor for this unforgiving behavior.

I was once waiting for a return trip home at CDG and the flight was delayed. The behavior of many of fellow Americans was indeed embarrassing, but so was the Ameican who had her scarf tied like proper Parisienne, and acted openly disgusted just show she was an elevated life form.

Never had any problems at all in France.
We were in Nice at the start of the Iraq war, and my DH was very concerned there would be rampant anti Americanism.

There was not, we had a lovely time.

I love your observation, aduchamp. I could always tell the tourists in Paris -- they were the ones trying to look Parisian. A true parisienne would never try to look like anyone else.

And I agree, Judyrem, I was in Paris just after we invaded Iraw, and people couldn't have been nicer.

We have been to Paris five times over 40 years. It remains one of my favorite cities for the food, museums, the use of light on buildings and structures as well as being spectacular walking city. I am not sure when we will return but we will.

*goes to get more popcorn as catfight seems to be brewing*

kerouac:



Thought it's "le popcorn" or maybe it's "la popcorn"

Did you have a nice "le weekend"?

??? Everybody seems to be agreeing, for the most part, today.

easytraveler, actually the French say "les popcorns".

kerouac: thanks for the elucidation.

Thank goodness the French have simplified their language!

Over here in California, I never know whether to ask for "los popcornos" or "las popcornas". Such are the overwhelming difficulties in life sometimes!

"J'ai acheté des popcorns au cinéma."

Try palomitas de maíz instead of hackneyed Spanish jokes.

Try palomitas de maíz.

>>"J'ai acheté des popcorns au cinéma."<<

Quel raffinement de goût.....

Patrick: Bien sur!

No wonder I got a strange look with: "je veux acheter un tout petit peu du popcorn"

Sacre bleu! What a faux pas!

Sorry, don't know how to make diacritical or any other marks in Fodors.

It is really painful for me to say 'des popcorns' but I have learned to do so.

Well, I suspect all your husbands "sources" have never been to France. I have never had anyone in this country volunteer directions to me as I peered at a map, followed me to return money I've dropped, or volunteered to translate a menu....all unasked...and this in Paris, multiple times, over two trips.
The people in Normandy remind me of the wonderfully polite world, long gone, of my childhood in a rural area. Most of the visitors at the American cemetery at Omaha Beach were respectful French...in short, I wish more Americans were as nice as the French I've been fortunate enough to meet.

Aduchamp--I would agree that SOME Parisians are unforgiving about pronouncing the language. But actually, we have had very few bad encounters that way.

In my French group at home, one of the Parisiennes is totally charming, a lovely, wonderful person. The other Parisienne is an arrogant, superior type. Guess what? We have two Americans that are horribly arrogant, superior types and the rest are just great people.

Basically I found that business is business no matter where one is. What gets anything done in the shortest amount of time works. Until I got to a certain level of communication, I do remember I wasn't allowed to finish a sentence in French with any cafe waiter before I was interrupted in English. It was a waste of their time.

As soon as my French was rather bearable (probably around my third or fourth trip), waiters were just fine with my imperfect French and I don't remember having any sort of problem since. Efficiency, efficiency.

My husband NEVER tries to speak any other language because his skills just don't lie there at all. Instead, he can order either a) beer or b) expresso in the right size in ANY country quite well with fingers and nods--and he always understands the change due him. No one ever seems upset with him.

An open outlook can do so much, too. A charming American couple staying in Amboise when we were only knew ONE single French phrase other than "please" and "thank-you" which they tailored to themselves in self-deprecating humor: "Nous parlons francais comme une vache anglaise" (the phrase is usually "une vache espagnole" I believe).

Bartenders and waiters adored them.

But here is where I say blanket statements really go wrong:

The positive: My sweet youngest daughter stayed in a rather snooty area for her four-month semester abroad. The market there was overrun by students, and market vendors tended to be rather brusque with them.

After her first week, though, those same vendors more or less "adopted" my daughter, going out of their way to make gentle and small corrections to her French. They would explain to other customers how well she was doing, and those customers eventually would join in, nodding approval or giving correction as needed.

The negative: Lest you think her charm or her language skill was the magic wand, she had a much less successful relationship, no matter how she tried, with the 7-11 type store on the corner. They just were not nice to her. However, at the end of her third month, she personally stopped a shoplifter in the store. After that, she could do no wrong.

Back to the negative: her Parisienne landlord (size 0) never quite got it, no matter how many times they spoke, that a) my daughter spoke excellent French and b) we all--including my linguistically challenged husband, could understand " 'tude" when we heard it. We have often said that had some Americans only met the landlord in Paris, they would have walked away with a total belief in the old stereotype.

Yet the older gentleman in charge of the new windows and window treatments for the apartment was simply adorable and absolutely gracious to her, speaking only in French to her during his three or four appointments--and he went out of his way to arrive early the day she left to help her down the stairs with her luggage.

People are people.

French is about my ninth language and I only speak two. My French accent is admittedly awful. But Mrs. Adu tries to learn a few words of the language of the country we are visiting and she is always greeted gaciously except in France. Her father was an immigrant and both my grandmothers were immgrants and some of current friends and relatives speak with accents. Mrs Adu tutors as a volunteer ESL. And the first thing you do, is never insult, laugh at, or intimidate someone who is trying to learn a language. There are two exceptions. Mrs. Adu was tutoring a Brazialian woman, who became a good friend, who told my wife that she wanted to buy "a two-bedroom condom." While, that is indeed impressive, it is hard to get the proper realtor.

The other is a current student, a shy young Japanese woman who is kind beyond words and works as a nanny. She told her that she taught a youngster "to crap." She meant clap.

Reminds me of my goofs. My late husband spoke French, Spanish and Russian. Me? a mess. We were staying in Arles at the famous hotel where all the bull fighters stayed, the NORD PINUS.
I referred to it as the NORTH PINIS, which my husband liked telling. At a bistro in Paradouu, our usual waiter wasn't his usual smiling self. I meant to say smile, Sourire
instead I said souris which means mouse. With that he broke out laughing telling everyone I called him a mouse.

What has the landladies dress size got to do with anything,, are only fat people nice and thin ones mean. Interesting .

"Des popcorns"? Another example of how anglicisms are more prevalent in France than in French Canada. Here the usual term is "maïs soufflé"; however sweet corn is "blé d'Inde", not "maïs" as in France.

justineparis--She was very much a tiny, svelte,dressed-to-the-tee, sophisticated Parisienne--and by her actions and words, we were made to understand that we were obviously overly tall, blobby American lifeforms she had to suffer. Favorite quote: in showing us "the dressing" (the closet), she said to my daughter (who is not overweight and is about 5' 6"), "It has room for normal clothes; even though your clothes will be much larger, I think you will be fine."

You obviously have not understood my point: I don't believe there is just one "type" of person in any city or country. Generalizations can be rampant and ultimately a disservice to all. For example, we were told Italian taxi drivers would rip us off--explain, then, the taxi driver in Florence who parked his car and chased after us into the airport to explain that we had overpaid him? I had a store clerk in "heartless" NY walk me down four blocks so I would get to the right place.

As I indicated, I have a very sophisticated Parisienne in my French group, equally well dressed (also size 0) who never would think of treating the rest of us as though we are cultural mutants.

The other Parisienne in the group, also size 0, consistently tells us that we Americans have no self control when it comes to food. Usually she states it just as we're reaching for our French cheese selection.

But we manage to regroup to reach for the cheese again, happily confirming her bad opinion of us. That makes her happy, too, so why not?

My point is that there are good, bad, rude, happy, sad people everywhere and blanket generalizations serve no one.

"are only fat people nice and thin ones mean"

????? How did you get that?

Personally, I think I was a MUCH nicer person when I was skinny. Shopping for a swimsuit didn't put me in a funk for three straight months

"The other Parisienne in the group, also size 0, consistently tells us that we Americans have no self control when it comes to food. Usually she states it just as we're reaching for our French cheese selection.But we manage to regroup to reach for the cheese again"

Not a very nice thing to say but according to my book of Table Manners you are not supposed to help you twice to the platter of cheese. In formal dinners, the hostess never passes it around a second time either.

Oops, now I am embarassed. Those of you who had dinner with me in Paris in March at Le Comptoir must have thought I was shameless. That cheese platter is now the screen saver on my phone. I will know better next time. Take only photographs, leave only footprints.

As a matter of etiquette, how many different cheeses are you expected to select from a chariot des fromages?

I believe three.
Nikki. I never noticed.

"Take only photographs, leave only footprints."

No footprints on the cheese, please )

I'm laughing so hard. Heck, I paid for the cheese and it was served on my darn dinner table in the USA. Ergo, my turf, American rules (aka "gorpful"). Tant pis!

I tipped myself 20%, too

As to the cheeses, I left fingerprints, footprints, and in the case of the last morsel (a very good Auvergne), I think an elbow print. My/our behavior was disgusting--and the cheese was SO wonderful.

In the words of that great philosopher, Edith Piaf...
"Je ne regrette rien". [Sound cue.]

[BTW--www.fromages.com be my life. I order from them all the time, even though I am also an American artisanal cheese--and beer--fanatic. Ordered one of their seasonal nine-cheese boards for this specific do. Local grocery store--a local chain--carries really wonderful whole-grain baguettes and organic walnuts, berries, I could use to go with this. Yes, we were in heaven.]

Yeah, in French restaurants, I choose three cheeses. If I am even offered three or more cheeses.***.

At home? After forking over $$$ (converted from $$ Euros)for this nearly perfect overnighted order of nine, I'll be darned if I was going to eat a tiny morsel of just three. Nine be me. Heck, everyone but the nasty size 0 (not to be confused with our nice size 0)did all of them.

Just so you know, the nasty size 0 was certainly NOT sipping her wine, and I know for sure that is not "comme il faut" at breakfast, noon or at dinner in Paris.

More specifically, I presented bottles (large French group) of a lovely Sancerre, a quite good Burgundy, and a decent California sparkling. I think Madame Nasty may have downed one whole bottle of the Sancerre in under an hour, and she then started to chip away at the rest.

I did not call her on it. Besides, while she was drinking, she wasn't eating that much cheese. More for us.

Again, I think she has problems that have nothing to do with nationality.

The NICE size 0 sort of cried when I brought out the cheese board. Darling, darling woman. She has really missed home, even though she has taken advantage of all travel opportunities within the US, God Bless her. She has made the most of everything here, including friendships, and we're going to hate to see her go back.

***Speaking of cheese after dinner...My husband and I see fewer and fewer offerings anymore. One very lovely restaurant at our Thanksgiving stay offered NO cheese.

When we started going to Paris at the end of the 90s, a cheese selection was regularly brought out on a cart. Same restaurants now, no cart. Selection of three if we're lucky. Selection of two was our Thanksgiving stay norm.

We found one "old school" place--and we're not going to tell!

That was a funny story AlessandraZoe! Pretty hard to let good cheese go to waste.

DH and I have eaten twice at a great old school place in Paris with a fabulous cheeseboard.
The first time we had quite a funny waiter and we wondered why he was kind of lurking around watching DH with his cheeseboard. I don't remember how many cheeses, but more than three for sure and the last three were increasingly strong and smelly. (but absolutely delicious)

I think the waiter was convinced we wouldn't eat the smelly ones because as DH gobbled up the last morsels of the strongest and smelliest he came over and shook his hand.

Another footnote to discussions about conversational behaviour and greeting people. This one applies to differences between Americans and British, but could equally well (or even more so) apply to Franco-American differences:
http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/introducing-yourself.html

That settles it, I'm moving to a culture where my embarrassing inability to remember people's names will be much less of a disability.

The condom story reminds me of me explaining football to my French girlfriend. I was trying to say third down and ten yards (verges) to go. But I said "vierges".

Third down and ten virgins to go.

lol, Patrick, how true.

the bit about people saying "how are you?" or how y'doin'" as they run past reminded me of how I felt when we moved to Cornwall. It took me ages to realise that the standard greeting "allright?" [said with a slight upwards inflection] was not an enquiry after my health, but the cornish equivalent of Hello, to which the correct response is not "ok thanks, how are you?" but "allright" said with a falling inflection.

in fact you could have a whole conversation using this one word, were you so minded.

Nikki - whilst not wishing to perpetuate any racial stereotypes, my impression from mixing with americans is that they are generally much better than the british as remembering people's names. they are also much better at introducing people than we are [this may be related to the previous statement, as introducing someone whose name you don't know is pretty impossible without a high degree of embarrassment on both sides]. in fact my american GF is so good at this, she has introduced me to people i originally introduced to her!

there is what i take to be a peculiarly british dilemma when you met someone you know well, and can't remember their name, but know them too well to ask.

what do you do then?