Just wondering

There is talk about a class system in the U.S. on another thread (the biographies one). <BR>And it got me wondering: <BR> <BR>Is there still a functioning class system in Britain? If there is, how strongly do people feel it and how is it different than the way it used to be? Is is different for the people in Scotland? The people in Wales? <BR> <BR>And, one more thing, do the BRITISH (not the Americans) think that the monarchy is on it's way out or do you think it will be around for another few hundred years or so?

Jim

The British take this class thing far more serious than we ever would do. <BR> <BR>I would agree that the comments made inside that other thread that - financial success or failure – in itself is insufficient to change one’s class in Britain. <BR> <BR>Remember that the Great Britain and India were together run by one administration for 300 years and both have strong rigid class systems embedded in them. Although India was the “colony” both the cultural impact was clearly both ways. <BR> <BR>Living in Britain for two years now I am struck by just how much my golf club exaggerates in welcoming so many “well spoken” (i.e related in some way to the nobility) British guys whenever they choose to show up – even though they hardly play golf!!! <BR> <BR> <BR>

Just wondering

Jim, that's interesting that your golf club is so welcoming to the "well-spoken"--can you elaborate? <BR> <BR>And also, I'm wondering how welcoming are they to you, with no class system (so to speak) behind you?

ifitlookslikea

Just wondering, Just wondering, were you looking for trouble? Jim gave you an honest look, and you jumped on him, desperately digging for something on which to nail him and prove your unspoken point. <BR> <BR>Is the thorntree site off-line today?

BrianH

I don't think the monarchy will disappear overnight...things don't often happen that quickly in the UK!However, I do think the importance and the reverence people used to feel for the royal family has decreased dramatically over the last 20 years or so. People do regard some members of 'The Firm' (Prince Edward, Fergie etc)as a bit of a joke although the Queen does still command at least a bit of respect mainly because people recognise that its a hell of a tough job she's doing. As for the future of the monarchy - who knows. I think abolishing it would probably be a step too far for most people. The constitional monarchy arrangement seems to have worked fairly well over the past few hundred year - better the devil you know perhaps! <BR> <BR>The class system still exists here in this country with the Queen and her family sitting right at the top of the tree. However,I do think decline in the popularity of the royal family is an indication that the class system is not what it used to be. Things have changed in this country. A lot of the old assumptions and beliefs have been swept away as new technology and better educational opportunities are available to more people, opening up the world to them. Incidentally, being working class is fashionable now. For example in the fifies having a cockney accent was not thought to be desirable but today it is thought to be very trendy! <BR> <BR>The Scots and the Welsh have a reputation for being less class conscious than the English and have certainly always been more left wing. <BR> <BR>

Just wondering

To BrianH: I believe that the monarchy brings in a lot of money with the tourism it generates, so I don't see it disappearing anytime soon, either. I know that I hope it stays in place, at least for my and my children's lifetime. It is very costly, tho, to the British, isn't it? <BR> <BR>I have been to your country several times, and I have never seen anything which would lead me to believe that there is a class system operating. Except once while visiting my friend, she mentioned that she was going to change her clothes before we left for dinner, since there was a good chance her 'betters' would be there at the restaurant.

Steve Mueller

<BR>I'm not convinced that the dissolution of the monarchy would influence tourism to any significant degree. The palaces and castles would still be there, they wouldn't be demolished or sold. It might be interesting to watch Charles get evicted, though. Anyway, I would still visit Windsor and Edinburgh Castles, whether the Queen resides there or not (actually, I don't think she resides at Edinburgh anymore, regardless). Germany and France are covered with historic structures that are associated with former Monarchs and Emperors. <BR> <BR>From an American perspective, it seems that the greatest cost of such a rigid class-based society, is the lack of socio-economic opportunity available to working class people. My impression of the UK has been that, if your father was a shopkeeper, you are likely to be a shopkeeper. If your father was miner, you are likely to be a miner. And so on. I can't imagine the frustrations faced by the son or daughter of a working class Brit that is rejected from Cambridge or Oxford because the admissions board refuse to see past their working-class accents.

Marc David Miller

The structured class system of Britain is in the decline--with about 90 exceptions, hereditary peerage is no more.

Jane

The vocal class system is at work in N.A. as well, when was the last time you knew what area a person was from and how did that change your opinion of them? How about an Indian accent? <BR> <BR>We still have a long way to go.

Mel

The so-called 'class system' is no longer what it was and there is much 'fluidity' within the groups. I think that traditionally it took three generations for a family to move up (or, I suppose, down) a class. So making/losing money will never be the way out/up. Old money will always win over new....

classdifferences

Well actually I think the US has quite a class system too. <BR> <BR>I was raised in an upper-middle class household in the US where it was just a given that all the children would go to college and graduate school. My husband was raised in a very blue-collar working class household where no one in his family ever went to college (some didn't even finish high school). I can't honestly say that he or his siblings were any less intelligent, talented or motivated than my siblings and I - it was just socioeconomic status that made the difference in what was expected of us and what was considered "normal" for us to do. <BR> <BR>It seems to me that most of the time people in the US do follow in the socioeconomic footsteps of their parents too, just as you say the ones in the UK do. Of course there are exceptions to the rule (my husband, through a series of unusual events, had his eyes opened to other possibilities, and he is actually now a university professor himself). But I don't think these exceptions mean the class system doesn't exist. His path was a very unusual one. <BR> <BR>It seems to me the essence of a class system is one where a person benefits/suffers from their family's socioeconomic status rather than their own individual accomplishments. I can't resist mentioning one of the most obvious examples of late: whatever you think of his politics, do you think George W. would have been accepted at Yale, given his academic record, if his father had been an unknown car mechanic in Dallas?

old money

Mel : in the US, in the South, there used to be a saying to the effect that Old Blood (meaning a long-established family) was better than New Money, but the best of all was Old Blood and NO Money. (A wry response to the fact that most of the Southern "aristocracy" lost all their fortunes in the Civil War.)

Mel

Old Money: Alas I'm of peasant Irish stock - no money and no line!! Ah well, perhaps I can marry into it...?!?!

Steve Mueller

<BR>In this age of scholarships and government grants and loans, I don't think that the financial resources of parents are a critical element to obtaining a college degree in the US. <BR> <BR>My father was a bricklayer and I am a physicist. As an undergraduate, I had scholarships that paid for all but $4,000 of my tuition over four years (and that was easily covered by student loans). In graduate school, I received fellowships that covered all of my tuition (plus a $1000 per month stipend) until I received my Ph.D. <BR> <BR>Even those that are not academically competitive enough to earn a scholarship can finance their way through college entirely on the basis of loans. It may be difficult to go to Harvard or Yale by this route (you would be paying off the loans for the rest of your life), but a degree from a state college is attainable. I've known plenty of people that used student loans to be the first in their family to go to college.

Sheila

Is there a class system? No, not a system. <BR> <BR>Is there class? Oh by golly yes. <BR> <BR>People probably feel strongly about being able to move up; but if you don't have the blood you'll never be "upper". <BR> <BR>I don't think we think about it; it just "is" and we accommodate it in the way we live. Mostly nowadays it's to do with land, money and education. <BR> <BR>I live in Aberdeenshire in Scotland. the largest landowner in the county is Farquaharson of Invercauld Estate near Braemar. (no title, but very definitely upper). His family was the largest landowner 800 years ago. Now talk to me about fluidity between classes....

Steve Mueller

<BR>One more comment. If George W. Bush was accepted into Yale only because of his family connections, why is it that none of his siblings were accepted into any ivy league university? GW was the only one that got in. Was there a quota on Bushes?

Brianh

I do not know how much the royal family costs the country but I don't think overall that it's that much. The Queen and Charles do pay taxes on any income they generate and the civil list has been cut quite drastically. It may be that in a few years the royals will be more or less self-financing. I do know that the Queen has recently had to pay off the Queen Mother's overdraft...all £4,000,000 - its all these bottles of London gin <BR>The class system and the splitting up of people into working/lower middle/middle/upper middle class etc is definitely less overbearing than it was say 50 years ago. Some people are still however very much aware of what 'class ' they feel they belong to. There is a long tradition of working class culture and politics in this country and people are proud of that. But I would say that the majority of people in Britain, just like elsewhere, judge people as individuals rather that worry about what 'class' they fit into. It only matters to those people to whom it matters.. and there are not really many of them anymore.

Idontknow

Steve: re: why none of W.'s siblings were admitted to Yale. I don't even know whether they applied, but if they did and were refused admittance, I can only assume that it's because even people at Yale can learn from their mistakes.

Steve Mueller

<BR>If Yale University has the capacity to learn from its mistakes, then it is highly unlikely that it is admitting students solely on the basis of class status. <BR> <BR>Incidentally, George W Bush scored in the top 10% of his SAT tests (as did Al Gore). How well did you do?

Just wondering

There are a lot of interesting responses here and I learned a lot today. <BR> <BR>In my original post, I asked how is it different than it used to be. I know that there were some places where the lower classes would not have been admitted, etc, in the past. So, how IS it different today? Is it just in people's minds, or are there circumstances where the classes are kept separate? Does anyone curtsey to anyone who is not the Queen or Queen Mum or Prince Charles? Or is that outdated now, too? <BR> <BR>Sheila, you say "People probably feel strongly about being able to move up; but if you don't have the blood you'll never be "upper". That is fascinating to me. Do you mean that should a 'lower class' person marry an 'upper' class person, would he/she then be considered upper or not? Would the offspring from this marriage be considered 'upper class'? <BR> <BR>I grew up reading constantly, especially stories about England (fact and fiction books), and the class system (in novels, anyway,) has always been fascinating to me. It seems like it adds so much to the personalities--again, in novels, that is. Don't know about in real life, so I guess that is why I am asking. <BR> <BR> <BR>Please keep the comments coming, as this is so interesting. <BR>I remember the show "Upstairs, Downstairs" that was shown here in the States for several years and it had quite a huge following over here. So I guess I am not the only one interested in the English classes. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>