John

Well, it’s obvious that “class” distinctions change over time. In the past, lineage and property were the keys to one’s class assignment, now it has more to do with education and access to power (and property.) But I think class is still much more tangible in the UK than in North America, in that so many aspects of British life, like the media or educational systems or patterns of speech or accent, all have class-related cues and protocols. It’s certainly diminishing and way less noticeable than a few decades ago, but it’s still there, in’it, guv? In the US, by comparison, the gulf between the best off and worst off is much greater than in the UK, but the American culture is so much more diverse and so much bigger that “class” or place in the social system is not perceived as the root of the differences, but ethnicity or origin or some other “classification” scheme is still at work. <BR> <BR>PS, Just wondering, that would be the “British” classes? <BR>

Erlsegaard

This must be why everybody thinks Americans are so naive. It does not take incredible genius to pick out major class divisions in either the UK or the US. Some people maybe adopt certain attitudes towards life in adulthood which, if they have reasonably good credentials, perhaps can lift them into the sphere of another class and make their children comfortable in it. They themsleves though will almost always reveal their middle or lower class origins unless they are very good. And the number of people who successfully pull this off, while not insignificant these days, is still proportionally small. Perhaps the middle class in America is now so huge (and the rich keep themselves by and large so well-hidden and out of direct contact with the masses) that people aren't conscious of them. But the philosophical approach and attitude towards many areas of life of the upper classes in the US is quite, quite different from what you would encounter in the overwhelming majority of reasonably prosperous middle class people. And in rather significant ways too, in my opinion.

Eli

Don't recall any class system on the tube. Everything seems to be 2nd class. Did notice 1st and 2nd class on the train from London to Edinbourg, though...

egg

Yes there is a class system in the UK, but people are usually quite relaxed about it. Different groups have different attitudes and interests. Interests also overlap. I live in a country village where there's a mix of middle and working class. The "big house" has been bought by a farmer so we have no representative of the upper classes. Nobody looks up or down on anyone and there are certain events like the annual flower show where for instance a lawyer or doctor will be deadly rivals with a farm labourer about their roses. The workman respects the doctor for his education and skills and the doctor will admire the way the farmworker can lay a hedge. <BR>I've lived in the States and there is definitely a class system. You can even see it reflected in the names people give their children. There seems sometimes to be an "I'm just as good as you" rudeness when the "lower orders" deal with those whose education and status is higher than their own. <BR>Oddly enough, there was a lot of social mobility in the UK after WWII when bright working class children were selected at 11 to go to grammar schools (grammar schools as in learning Latin, not grammar schools as you know them.) <BR>The system was abandoned in most places because it was perceived as being devisive and now most schools are neighbourhood comprehensive schools and it's hard on children who have to attend schools in poorer areas. Often, but not always these schools get worse results. <BR>As for the Royal Family, there is far less deference but I think that the Monarchy will survive but will become more like the Scandinavian model. If it ain't broke, why fix it. If you look at the world's most stable democracies, most of them are monarchies. <BR>Interesting thraed.

Falcon

Upper class: <BR>Own: Land <BR>Sports: Bridge, croket (not to be confused with cricket), water polo, fox hunting <BR>Smoke: Women rarely smoke. <BR>Social: Very restricted private clubs even having the financial means does not guarantee access. e.g. annual balls etc. Events normally take place in private at “weekend” or “summer retreats”. <BR>Accent: Exaggerated use of words which have long since disappeared e.g “carbuncle” and no I do not know what it means. <BR>Schooling: Expensive exclusive residential e.g Eton (pre – 5 years old private nanny) <BR>Activities: Antiques, converting private family castle into museums for visitors. <BR>Income: Hard to figure as most live on historic wealth rather than current earnings. <BR>Other identification: Tweed hats and Ranger Rover cars. <BR> <BR>Middle class: <BR>Own: More than one residential address (usually second residence in Cornwall or in Spain) <BR>Sports: Rugby; golf, sailing, cricket <BR>Smoke: Cigars <BR>Accent: As you hear on the BBC <BR>Clubs: Fitness clubs, squash clubs, corporate club membership, <BR>Social: Voluntary charity activities, art classes, <BR>Schooling: Private “day” schools. <BR>Activities: Private banking; investment banking; international law; tax law; captains of industry; proprietors of large listed enterprises, politicians high level journalists. <BR>Income: Above US $100,000. <BR>Other identification: Plastic surgery, health farms, unnecessary number of credit cards, basic (i.e. limited) knowledge of a foreign language <BR> <BR>Working class: <BR>Own: Usually nothing – live on credit and in cheap tacy rented accommodation <BR>Sports: Darts, rarely play other sports - usually watch sports on TV. <BR>Smokes: Cigarettes including nasty “roll your own”. <BR>Social: Public houses (“pubs”) Getting drunk seen as acceptable activity for women as well as guys. <BR>Accent: varies between which part of the country. Indeed when you can tell from which part of the country somebody is from they are definitely working class. <BR>Schooling: State schools. <BR>Activities; Public sector workers; salesmen; factory workers; low level (local) white collar lawyers accountants, local journalists; bank managers etc; refuse collectors <BR>Income: Anything below US $100,000 <BR>Other identifications: Satellite dishes, eating french fries whilst walking along the street. <BR> <BR>

Brianh

Working class blokes don't play sport? <BR>Football, football and more football! Seems like every pub and social club in my town has got it's own team of footballers.

champagne

Not all well off middle class people send their children to private schools. Left wing liberal types send them to state schools, but they make sure that they buy a house in the catchment area of a good school. <BR>There are also definitely two kinds of working class, the rough and the respectable. The respectable rent decent council houses or buy them. They don't get drunk or eat chips in the street. They merge into the lower middles. <BR>What you would consider upper in the US is probably our upper middle. Money has little to do with it in either country. You can be as poor as a church mouse and still be a lady or gentleman or a millionnaire and as common as muck. I've noticed that the educated middle classes in the US are often quite modest in things like cars, kitchen appliances etc. <BR>The US is not a classless society. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of my ability in that respect, but I can "place" an American just as easily as I can a Briton.

sylvia

The census sorts us all into social classes for statistical purposes. There is a BBC website about it at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/re...s/class1.shtml <BR>You can type in your job or profession and find out which class you belong to.

ClassX

What's 'croket' and 'tacy' rented accomodation Falcon ? A Carbuncle is a facial blemish and all this 'class' stuff is a crock of s**t. I'm as good as anyone who was ever born or will ever be born and that's the way it is.

classy

"I'm as good as anyone who was ever born or will ever be born and that's the way it is" <BR> <BR>Well, Jesus, Shakespeare, Beethoven, Einstein etc. eat your hearts out!

Roger

Of course, we have a class system in America. A couple of examples to stir the hornets' nest. If your idea of a wonderful vacation is Disney World, you are middle class with, minimally, working-class antecedents. Same goes for vacationing in Cancun, the casinos of the Bahamas, Las Vegas, Atlantic City or the cruise ship that Kathie Lee Gifford advertises. College educated left-wing yuppies love to give their newborn girls last names for first names (ie. Taylor, Logan, Regan, Bailey). Left-wing yuppy women often don't take their husbands' last names or they use a hyphenated last name or keep their "maiden" last name as a middle name. Their yuppy left-wing husbands' are too intimidated by their wives to object. Some of the husbands hyphenate their names as well- their feeble protest of patriarchical society. <BR>People more comfortable with their status, rural types, small businessmen, local gentry, like to give their offspring normal names like John, Mary, Susan, Tom etc., etc.

Sheila

I find this fascinating, too Just wondering. <BR> <BR>So, how IS it different today? <BR> <BR>I don't really know because I wasn't there before. But it definitely isn't to do with money. <BR> <BR>I believe it is about what is in people's minds. It exists, it's not about being better or worse than someone else; just different. <BR> <BR>I was in the tot shop in my local small town this evening and saw a lady, tall slim, particular sort of hair style, wearing jeans and a t-shirt and what I would call "English" spoken. I had her pegged as upper or upper middle class BEFORE I heard her call her son, Cosmo. I don't mean that there was anything judgemental about the judgement; but these things are innate <BR> <BR>Are there circumstances where the classes are kept separate? <BR> <BR>Probably. For example I'm not likely, however high I rise in my profession, to be invited to Prince William's wedding; or, for that matter, the local Highland Ball. But i have friends who will and are. <BR> <BR>Does anyone curtsey to anyone who is not the Queen or Queen Mum or Prince Charles? Absolutely not. Never. Unheard of. <BR> <BR>Should a 'lower class' person marry an 'upper' class person, he/she would not cross class boundaries. The children would probably be upper. <BR> <BR>None of this matters one whit, and no-one should lose sleep over it or imagine that anyone here does.

classy

Roger, I suspect that what you call middle class is what in England is lower middle/upper working. No English middle class person would be seen dead at Disney World unless they could claim that they are only going for the kids' sake. They would visit Las Vegas so that they could amuse their friends with photos of hilarious wedding chapels etc.

aldo

Roger: <BR> <BR>Did your parents send you to John Birch summer camp or something? Such anger could be beneficial if (a) you focused it on a worthwhile cause, and (b) you were not such a sociopath. <BR> <BR> <BR>

mel

Class X: <BR> <BR>I think Falcon meant "Croquet" - a game played on a lawn where you hit balls through a series of hoops. Normally one would also be drinking Pimms & Lemonade or Gin & Tonic. <BR> <BR>And I think that he meant 'tacky' - which is generally considered to be downmarket and tacky. However, I think that this is very much a matter of personal taste - I know a lot of well-off, so-called upper middle class people who consider gold plated cutlery and taps (faucets) to be the height of desirability. This I consider to be deeply tacky. <BR> <BR>Would also like to comment on the statement that upper class women 'rarely smoke' - well not the case with the vast number I know/have met. And the upper classes are notorious drinkers - but not cheap lager, of course! <BR> <BR>And most 'kinky' sex practices were popularised by the british & french aristocracy - they had nothing to worry about so were very easily bored!! The lower classes were too busy trying to put food on the table... (Just a fact that amuses me...) <BR>

sandi

There are only two classes of people all over the world: Those who got class and those who don't got class...and you know who you are.

Yikes

So, a working class income is less than US$100,000. <BR> <BR>Hmmn, guess now I can watch 'Coronation Street' with a clear conscience.... <BR> <BR>

Just sondering

To Falcon: Your listing of what constitutes the different classes was very interesting and certainly made clear distinctions. Thank you for helping me understand so clearly the divisions. <BR> <BR>Sheila: I like you. I have read your answers on other threads and I always enjoy your posts. You hold back nothing, tell it the way you see it, and you have a sense of humor. Oh, by the way, in your first post, your example of the the people where you live whose family were the largest landholders 800 years ago just astounded me. I don't even know what anyone in my family did two hundred years ago, yet alone what they were doing 800 years ago! And thank you for answering so many of my questions. <BR> <BR>There are so many mentions in these posts about income in Britain. I did not realize that so many in the U.K. had such high incomes. The breaking point between the lower and middle class at $100,000 is just incredible. Much, much higher than it is here in the States. <BR> <BR>There are different classes of people here in the States, but I thought the differences among the middle, upper-middle, and lower- upper classes were to subtle for people outside the States to identify. I didn't realize it was so obvious. <BR> <BR>And Sylvia, your link to the BBC site regarding the seven different classes is very interesting. Thank you for posting that. <BR> <BR>Champagne, you said "but I can "place" an American just as easily as I can a Briton." What criteria do you use? Accents? Dress? <BR> <BR>I was also wondering...in Britain, do the mothers raise their kids to "stay withing their class" or to try and rise above it? I mean most parents around the world always want more for their children than they had, but how does that apply to the "class system" in Britain? <BR> <BR>

Sheila

Two points to the last post ( and thank you for the kind words) <BR> <BR>I really don't think class is related to income; and I'm falry certain that the average wage (I'll check it out later today) is about £23k. So if you were to break between lower and middle class on income it would be at a salary a lot lower than $100k. <BR> <BR>The final question is an interesting one. I suspect the answer is based on "class". Most parents aspire for a better standard of living for their children; and Scotland in particular in the UK has a tradition of universal education which allows the "lad o'pairts" to achieve that. <BR> <BR>But if you live in crummy housing with poor schooling, I suspect the edge is very much taken off aspiration to anything other than a leakproof roof and less condensation in the bedrooms. <BR> <BR>And we'll always have the feckless, like the poor, amongst us

champagne

Whew Just, how do you "place" someone? <BR> <BR>It's difficult. I started work in the US and met my new workmates for the first time. There was a quiet, grey haired woman sitting in the corner. She wasn't expensively dressed but everything about her said "lady". I think upper middle Americans tend to be quietly spoken and generally modest with the modesty that comes with self confidence. I remember visiting a lower middle class couple and the woman proudly showed me her kitchen. That is typical lower middle behaviour. Lower middles in the US and also here have immaculate houses. Educated middle class people are less tidy on the whole and have books lying around. The furniture may well be old and shabby but will have been passed down through the family. <BR>Here in England my husband's works magazine publishes photos of men who have retired. They are all head and shoulders snaps of men in dark suits, but I can tell at a glance who are managers and who are process workers. I don't know how, but I just can. An American friend told me that she has exactly the same ability but can't explain it either.