Article on England's southwest
Jul 3rd, 2017, 04:18 AM
#1
Original Poster
Article on England's southwest
Jul 3rd, 2017, 04:41 AM
#2
mmm - too weird for me. We enjoyed Wells much more than Glastonbury which is full of old hippies and the like selling crap to the gullible, whilst the Abbey itself was more or less deserted.
and no mention of the locals "blacking up" in Padstow, which has understandably drawn some criticism in recent times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummer%27s_Day
and no mention of the locals "blacking up" in Padstow, which has understandably drawn some criticism in recent times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummer%27s_Day
Jul 4th, 2017, 10:26 PM
#6
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"Glastonbury which is full of old hippies and the like selling crap to the gullible"
Just keeping up centuries-old traditions.
True, a xenophobic, murderous and puritanical coup d'etat in the 1530s suspended them for a few hundred years, replacing them with self-righteous Protestant humbug.
But it's good to see Glasto returning to its medieval roots
Just keeping up centuries-old traditions.
True, a xenophobic, murderous and puritanical coup d'etat in the 1530s suspended them for a few hundred years, replacing them with self-righteous Protestant humbug.
But it's good to see Glasto returning to its medieval roots
Jul 5th, 2017, 03:57 AM
#7
Original Poster
" a xenophobic, murderous and puritanical coup d'etat in the 1530s"
Huh? If you are referring to the establishment of the Church of England and/or the dissolution of the monasteries, "puritanical" is not the word most would choose for Henry VIII, and there was certainly no overthrow of the state involved.
If that is not what you are referring to, what is?
And given the option of Catholic humbug or Protestant humbug (rather than none) I would take the Protestants, with whom there is at least more choice of humbug.
Huh? If you are referring to the establishment of the Church of England and/or the dissolution of the monasteries, "puritanical" is not the word most would choose for Henry VIII, and there was certainly no overthrow of the state involved.
If that is not what you are referring to, what is?
And given the option of Catholic humbug or Protestant humbug (rather than none) I would take the Protestants, with whom there is at least more choice of humbug.
Jul 5th, 2017, 04:34 AM
#8
I suspect xenophobia has been a condition on most of the European stage for a fair few 100 years now.
The good thing about the switching back and forward between "true religions" during this period has lead to a country where the fair majority have moved out of the grasp of priests, I just wish it was all of us.
The good thing about the switching back and forward between "true religions" during this period has lead to a country where the fair majority have moved out of the grasp of priests, I just wish it was all of us.
Jul 6th, 2017, 12:29 PM
#11
@bilbo - I have a theory that religious fanaticism is a matter of genetics, and there was a large exodus of those carrying the relevant genes to the US.>>
An interesting point, thursdaysd, though it should be said that the British were much more enthusiastic Church goers until relatively recently. Why we have stopped going? I know why I stopped but I can't speak for others.
An interesting point, thursdaysd, though it should be said that the British were much more enthusiastic Church goers until relatively recently. Why we have stopped going? I know why I stopped but I can't speak for others.
Jul 7th, 2017, 06:49 AM
#12
I suspect multiple wars and the blending of religion with nationalism had a significant positive affect for the older generations. I'm told nothing makes a believer like hiding in the bottom of a shell hole.
For present generations, the growth of counselling, the welfare state, even state education has taken away some of the attraction, while kiddy fiddling and out-of-wedlock child/mother torture never did much to bring people into the fold.
Meanwhile the rise of the fundamentalist religous bigots and anti/science forces has not helped.
For present generations, the growth of counselling, the welfare state, even state education has taken away some of the attraction, while kiddy fiddling and out-of-wedlock child/mother torture never did much to bring people into the fold.
Meanwhile the rise of the fundamentalist religous bigots and anti/science forces has not helped.
Jul 7th, 2017, 11:12 PM
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"it should be said that the British were much more enthusiastic Church goers until relatively recently"
There's no one single answer - and Britain's lack of interest in church-going isn't particularly different from much of the rest of Western Europe.
It might look that way to British tourists in southern Europe, because of the massive cultural legacy of Catholic feasts and the religion's surviving visual monuments (like the endless crucifixes on roadsides in the German-speaking belt).
But go to Sunday Mass in most of France, Italy or Spain and the churches are as underpopulated as anywhere in England: in fact far emptier than in much of London or the most affluent rural communities - where Catholicism's survived better than Anglicanism, and both have survived far, far better than conventional Nonconformity. Indeed the reason the question's been asked by a Cornishwoman (Nonconformity being the default Cornish religion for the past 200 years) may be that Methodist and Baptist congregations have fallen fastest of all
Globally, of course, Western Europe's the oddity: not the US. Declining Christian attendances almost everywhere west of the Polish border (and, though it's rarely mentioned, even in Poland) don't contrast only with growing mosque attendances throughout the Muslim world (and stable Hindu affiliation), but with soaring Christian observation in Eastern Europe, China and Korea - and with the extraordinary growth over the past century in Christianity's following in Africa. Crudely: in the 19th century almost everyone south of the Sahara observed local religions: now they're almost all Christian or Muslim.
One reason Christianity does well where it does do well is its close association with the West's better exports (like the rule of law and free speech) - or rather its offering an alternative structure to often discredited local politicians. It's also closely associated in Africa (like Islam) with modernity, however weird that might sound to anyone following the antiocs of Boko Haram and the Christian militias opposing it.
That rarely applies in Western Europe. But it doesn't apply in the US either, so the interesting question does come back to why Christianity's less embedded in modern Europe than in the US.
It's complex, but to me the four main reasons are:
- Science. Scientific explanations of natural phenomena just aren't discredited in Europe to anything like the extent they are in much of the US
- The problem of evil. Christianity's struggles to explain the survival of evil are arguably the biggest cause of religious disaffection: how can a loving God permit the Holocaust or the carnage in the trenches? Far tougher to answer in a continent that's seen so much evil over the past century
- Immigration. Most US immigrants in the past century brought Christianity with them: very often a denomination (Catholicism) that gave migrants a support network - and the discipline of compulsory Sunday Mass attendance. For Western Europe as a whole, not really true (though surprisingly true in Britain, as any glance at Sunday congregations or parish registers will show): immigration overall has brought more Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs - who support their mosque or temple for similar reasons to why many churches in Hispanic parts of California and Florida remain full.
Human rights. Churches had a huge role in the US civil rights movements of the 1960, and much of this heritage survives, at least in the Black community. Churches did play a part in the 1989 Eastern European struggles against Russian imperialism - but they affected a small proportion of Western Europeans, and the halo effect has disappeared faster than it has in parts of the US.
There's no one single answer - and Britain's lack of interest in church-going isn't particularly different from much of the rest of Western Europe.
It might look that way to British tourists in southern Europe, because of the massive cultural legacy of Catholic feasts and the religion's surviving visual monuments (like the endless crucifixes on roadsides in the German-speaking belt).
But go to Sunday Mass in most of France, Italy or Spain and the churches are as underpopulated as anywhere in England: in fact far emptier than in much of London or the most affluent rural communities - where Catholicism's survived better than Anglicanism, and both have survived far, far better than conventional Nonconformity. Indeed the reason the question's been asked by a Cornishwoman (Nonconformity being the default Cornish religion for the past 200 years) may be that Methodist and Baptist congregations have fallen fastest of all
Globally, of course, Western Europe's the oddity: not the US. Declining Christian attendances almost everywhere west of the Polish border (and, though it's rarely mentioned, even in Poland) don't contrast only with growing mosque attendances throughout the Muslim world (and stable Hindu affiliation), but with soaring Christian observation in Eastern Europe, China and Korea - and with the extraordinary growth over the past century in Christianity's following in Africa. Crudely: in the 19th century almost everyone south of the Sahara observed local religions: now they're almost all Christian or Muslim.
One reason Christianity does well where it does do well is its close association with the West's better exports (like the rule of law and free speech) - or rather its offering an alternative structure to often discredited local politicians. It's also closely associated in Africa (like Islam) with modernity, however weird that might sound to anyone following the antiocs of Boko Haram and the Christian militias opposing it.
That rarely applies in Western Europe. But it doesn't apply in the US either, so the interesting question does come back to why Christianity's less embedded in modern Europe than in the US.
It's complex, but to me the four main reasons are:
- Science. Scientific explanations of natural phenomena just aren't discredited in Europe to anything like the extent they are in much of the US
- The problem of evil. Christianity's struggles to explain the survival of evil are arguably the biggest cause of religious disaffection: how can a loving God permit the Holocaust or the carnage in the trenches? Far tougher to answer in a continent that's seen so much evil over the past century
- Immigration. Most US immigrants in the past century brought Christianity with them: very often a denomination (Catholicism) that gave migrants a support network - and the discipline of compulsory Sunday Mass attendance. For Western Europe as a whole, not really true (though surprisingly true in Britain, as any glance at Sunday congregations or parish registers will show): immigration overall has brought more Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs - who support their mosque or temple for similar reasons to why many churches in Hispanic parts of California and Florida remain full.
Human rights. Churches had a huge role in the US civil rights movements of the 1960, and much of this heritage survives, at least in the Black community. Churches did play a part in the 1989 Eastern European struggles against Russian imperialism - but they affected a small proportion of Western Europeans, and the halo effect has disappeared faster than it has in parts of the US.
Aug 1st, 2017, 03:51 AM
#14
Original Poster
Re Science: Much of the opposition to science and scientific explanations in the US comes from the religious right. Not sure the same kind of fundamentalist religion has much of an existence in Europe.
Aug 1st, 2017, 04:25 AM
#16
Original Poster
Bilbo - any better if I add "wing" to "right"? But yes, the situation in the US could well be described as scary - even before the current "administration".
I might also add that the education system is almost totally under local control and funding, and that home and religious schooling is legal, very popular, and these days often subsidized. Putting Betsy de Vos in charge of the Dept. of Education is a classic case of putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
I might also add that the education system is almost totally under local control and funding, and that home and religious schooling is legal, very popular, and these days often subsidized. Putting Betsy de Vos in charge of the Dept. of Education is a classic case of putting the fox in charge of the hen house.
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