stoweflake

Hi!

I am going to be in Shanghai this spring and want to go to Dali in Yunnan Province. What is the best way to get from Shanghai to Dali?

I have traveled quite a bit around Yunnan before with a group, so I am not so interested in other parts of Yunnan, except maybe Kunming.

Thank you for your help.

thursdaysd

Fly via Kunming.

Shanghainese

There are no nonstop flights as thursdaysd said, the stop is in Kunming, or take a 4-hour bus to Dali.

We were in Kunming in November, the Stone Forest is touristy but worth seeing. Yuantong Temple in the city was a more serene place with nice architecture, and the Green Lake Park filled with migrating Siberian geese was quite a sight.

We stayed at the New Era hotel for $64, convenient location, great breakfast, very comfortable.

thursdaysd

Or see if the Camellia has a deal - but stay in their deluxe rooms, not the hostel!

Aquilani

There is now direct flights. Perhaps you can fly to Kunming first, and then take a bus. You can find a flight on http://www.chinahighlights.com/china-flights/

been2china

There's a nice article about Dali here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2009/feb/01/dali-china

ekscrunchy

I looked at this because I am considering traveling this route next year. I am shocked at the prices listed in the link above--more than US$300 one-way from Shanghai to Lijiang (with 1 stop--probably Kunming). Are these really the going rates?

thursdaysd

Well, Peter is always telling us to wait until we're there to buy plane tickets. I took the train - to Chengdu and then Kunming and then flew (bus and train back to Kunming via Dali), but I didn't have time constraints.

ekscrunchy

Yes, but Peter does not always consider people WITH time constraints when he gives advice like that! I asked him about this on another thread. It is all well and good to wait until the last minute if you have an open-ended ticket home.

Shanghainese

EK -- this is a popular route, last year early Nov our one-way Lijiang to Shanghai Hongqiao airport with a 35-minute stop to change planes in Kunming was close to $300 including taxes/fees at discount fare. We were in Xian and after checking with chinese agents and other websites, Ctrip was the lowest.

Compared to hotels and food, internal airfares and admissions to attractions are not inexpensvie in China.

PeterN_H

I'm glad to find the board has mind-readers who know what I consider and what I don't. Perhaps I should point out what, in reality, I do consider, which is quite different.

Internal airfares are, for the most part, very reasonable. They tend not to be cheap if you buy them from overseas, well in advance, or even domestically through foreigner-targeting agents in high-volume destinations or indeed Chinese spammers who post links here in search of the gullible.

A very great deal of domestic flying is walk-up, and more planned only a few days in advance. Indeed, the best-priced tickets are only available from a month or so before the flight.

It is common to get a decent discount even when flying the same day on many routes. Back in the days of the ferries from Hong Kong to Shenzhen Airport is was entirely usual in the Kowloon waiting hall to be drowned out by Chinese businessmen on the phone trying to buy air tickets out of Shenzhen even as they boarded the ferry.

It is almost unheard of not to get the ticket you want a few days before, unless certain routes are chosen at certain particular high-traffic times of years (Spring Festival, the October week holiday). It is commonplace to hop around the country just buying tickets as you go. Flights between major destinations are so numerous that it is almost unheard of not to get on a flight some time on the day you want, and usually around the time of day you want. And there are always innumerable routings through third destinations if push comes to shove, although I have not been turned away from a direct flight I wanted since heavy floods cancelled all flights out of Urumqi (as well as trains and buses, and I was marooned for the best part of a week). That was in 1996, I think.

What you have to pay of course varies on route and season, and there are no absolute guarantees on any of this. Nevertheless, at all times of year I hop around, sometimes arriving in a town and buying a ticket to leave the following day, even in the midst of holiday seasons, and typically paying 30% less than published fares by shopping around a few agents I happen to pass and always buying my ticket from an agent at the point of departure. That's just how flying in China is, and I've shopped around and bought flights out of Kunming and flown the next day in the past. Kunming to Dali is for tourists only, and is unlikely to be very attractively priced, and certainly not when bought in a third city.

Your choices:

Use overseas booking engines and a) be unable to see most domestic flights at all, b) risk paying three to four times as much as you need to

Use a Chinese on-line agent such as Ctrip of similar, but a) not see discounted tickets until a month before at the very earliest, b) risk bait-and-switch problems, c) risk difficulties paying with an overseas credit card, d) risk difficulties if a refund is required

Arrive in China, put your head into a few local agents at random, buy there, and take the price with which you feel comfortable (typically a great deal lower than the published fare, typically a little lower than Ctrip).

There is no rule to finding the best price other than you have to cast about. Sometimes you'll find the best price (although matched by downtown agents) at the airport, but sometimes twice the best price. Hotels may very occasionally find you a decent price, but are more likely to ask for twice the price (and indeed you really shouldn't waste your time with agents in foreigner-haunted hotels, in expat ghettos, or highly recommended by expats). Even the agent you used last time, now assured of your custom, may up the price on you as you make further purchases. You *always* have to look around.

Now let's not hear any "That's all very well, but..." harrumphing. This is just how things are, and if you want to come to China, you have to deal with how China works, however unreasonable or irrational it may occasionally seem.

Some visitors want to pay as little as they can, and will just buy when in China. Others decide (without experience) that surely too much time would be needed and that way try to make themselves feel all right with paying more.

Some just decide that language is a problem. But no Mandarin is required, just a little gumption.

Those just decide to make a big meal of all this were best just to live with the prospect of paying more than they have to in order to organize their entire trips down to the last millisecond. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to travel, only the way with which any particular traveller feels comfortable.

But there are ways that go with the flow of a country, and ways that do not.

And there are cheaper ways and more expensive ways. If not being 100% certain of boarding the 9.42am to Guangzhou will cause weeks of sleepless nights, then there's clearly a remedy.

Peter N-H

rkkwan

Check prices on ctrip.com. You can prebook with them, so you don't have to wait until you're in China. But to get the best rate, you shouldn't book too far out.

ekscrunchy

Harummph!! (Sorry, could not resist!) Thanks to the three of you. Peter we owe you many thanks for taking the time to explain the situation. It is a dilemma and with your explanation we now have the information necessary to make the choice.

Shanghainese

Keep in mind Ctrip only books 2 months in advance.

marya_

Peter, your explanation above was very helpful. It takes some of us awhile to fully break down our preconceptions about how things "ought to" work and build up a real understanding based on accurate local information so bear with us.

Can you comment on the case in which one is traveling in a family or small group? If I am traveling in my family of 4 and avoiding major holidays, I assume that I can use the walk-up approach detailed above. Is there any opportunity for volume discounts? How about senior or youth discounts? Thanks for any additional information about how this works.

[Stoweflake, hope you don't mind this detail question in the context of your larger discussion.]

PeterN_H

If you're buying a batch of tickets you should be able to negotiate a slightly better price with a live agent once in China. I'm not aware of official airline discounts for groups, but certainly not for groups of four, and you wouldn't want to be buying from the airline directly anyway, since this would cost you a lot more to start with.

I don't believe there is any discount for seniors, and have certainly seen none advertised.

Discounting for children works on height for sights and for bus and rail transport, but for flying works on the same age brackets and discounts as flying elsewhere.

Ctrip may have tickets nominally available two months out but this is irrelevant. Whatever it advertises, it doesn't actually know what the real ticket prices are going to be, and, as already pointed out, the real prices (or something like them) don't usually start to show up until a month or less before flying.