Maui Blue Book: unsafe advice?
Nov 30th, 2004, 07:18 AM
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Maui Blue Book: unsafe advice?
In keeping with the theme of a similar thread about Kauai....does anyone think that some of the places the authors suggest you visit on the beauteous isle of Maui are dangerous? if so, which ones? thanks! Until recently I thought everything these books said was gospel.
Nov 30th, 2004, 09:50 AM
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I have never read the book, but can tell you of mishaps, rescues and deaths that are often attributed to visitors following the advice in the book. Last year there was a drowning at the so-called olivine pools, which has been described in the book as "a calm playground in a stormy sea," and the man's brother was reported as saying they were only following the advice in the book.
There have been several rescues of hikers from lava tubes at Naili`ilihaele Stream (I don't know what silly name the book gives to this place--I only know the proper name), all of whom have said the book lead them to the site, which, by the way is on private land, clearly marked as such.
Hikers were trapped just recently at Helele'ike'oha Falls (you probably know it as the Blue Pool). Waioka Pool (I think this is the one they call Venus Pool) is just waiting for it's first real mishap. Again, private property. I see a great increase in ill-prepared hikers in slippers scurrying across the rocks and jumping from places that I would not jump. The same at Twin Falls.
I think the oddest MR-related thing I ever saw was a group of four-six adults and a handful of kids traipsing down the trail to Kaihalulu (Red Sand) Beach, one of them had a todddler in a backpack. The parents than caused a bit of an uproar when they discovered sunbathers in the buff, as this was offensive to their children. They had their copy of the book in plain view in one gentleman's hand as they came down the trail. The trail there is treacherous with much loose cinder and I would never hike down there with my child, let alone on my back! Does the book not mention it is a clothing optional beach?
The problem I hear cited most-often is that the authors present a false sense of security at places like these, places where a flash flood can come along at any time, or where one good wave could wash you out to sea. This has been presented to the authors, as well as requests that they also be more responsible in directing people to sacred, private and protected lands, but the best they could do was send a "representative" to the meeting. Their rep said that she would take the information back to the authors, who, as far as I know, have never responded to the requests.
I really wish the authors would use proper names for places, instead of the made-up names they use. It is culturally insulting. They claim to be taken in by the islands, so why not teach people to real names for places? I just don't get this. Would you go to ancient sites in Europe and make up new names for places to make it easier for the American visitors? Gee, Coliseum is too hard to pronounce and spell, let's call it the Roman Toilet Bowl.
There have been several rescues of hikers from lava tubes at Naili`ilihaele Stream (I don't know what silly name the book gives to this place--I only know the proper name), all of whom have said the book lead them to the site, which, by the way is on private land, clearly marked as such.
Hikers were trapped just recently at Helele'ike'oha Falls (you probably know it as the Blue Pool). Waioka Pool (I think this is the one they call Venus Pool) is just waiting for it's first real mishap. Again, private property. I see a great increase in ill-prepared hikers in slippers scurrying across the rocks and jumping from places that I would not jump. The same at Twin Falls.
I think the oddest MR-related thing I ever saw was a group of four-six adults and a handful of kids traipsing down the trail to Kaihalulu (Red Sand) Beach, one of them had a todddler in a backpack. The parents than caused a bit of an uproar when they discovered sunbathers in the buff, as this was offensive to their children. They had their copy of the book in plain view in one gentleman's hand as they came down the trail. The trail there is treacherous with much loose cinder and I would never hike down there with my child, let alone on my back! Does the book not mention it is a clothing optional beach?
The problem I hear cited most-often is that the authors present a false sense of security at places like these, places where a flash flood can come along at any time, or where one good wave could wash you out to sea. This has been presented to the authors, as well as requests that they also be more responsible in directing people to sacred, private and protected lands, but the best they could do was send a "representative" to the meeting. Their rep said that she would take the information back to the authors, who, as far as I know, have never responded to the requests.
I really wish the authors would use proper names for places, instead of the made-up names they use. It is culturally insulting. They claim to be taken in by the islands, so why not teach people to real names for places? I just don't get this. Would you go to ancient sites in Europe and make up new names for places to make it easier for the American visitors? Gee, Coliseum is too hard to pronounce and spell, let's call it the Roman Toilet Bowl.
Nov 30th, 2004, 10:18 AM
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here_today_gone2Maui - Very well said, I couldn't agree with you more.
For those of you love the "blue books", please remember that they are neither gospel nor totally reliable. The local folks whose private property has been trashed and trampled by the readers of these books understand that.
For those of you love the "blue books", please remember that they are neither gospel nor totally reliable. The local folks whose private property has been trashed and trampled by the readers of these books understand that.
Nov 30th, 2004, 10:36 AM
#6
Here today, you know, you really ought to read the book before you criticize it.
The "silly name" the authors use for Naili`ilihaele is - Na'ili`ili-Haele (p.232-233).
They always say when private land is involved, but also go tell you to get permission before crossing it (p. 76 amongst others).
Yes, they say that the Red Sand Beach is used by nudists, and describe in detail how difficult it is to access the beach (p.97).
Unfortunately, many tourists who read this excellent guide book seem to leave what brain they have at home, along with whatever sense of responsibility they usually have. The authors of these books are not responsible for the actions of careless,ignorant people. If you read the whole book, not just the captions under photos, you will find most complaints are already addressed in the books and major revisions are not necessary. Clearly, many people do not read the whole book, just a few paragraphs here and there.
The "silly name" the authors use for Naili`ilihaele is - Na'ili`ili-Haele (p.232-233).
They always say when private land is involved, but also go tell you to get permission before crossing it (p. 76 amongst others).
Yes, they say that the Red Sand Beach is used by nudists, and describe in detail how difficult it is to access the beach (p.97).
Unfortunately, many tourists who read this excellent guide book seem to leave what brain they have at home, along with whatever sense of responsibility they usually have. The authors of these books are not responsible for the actions of careless,ignorant people. If you read the whole book, not just the captions under photos, you will find most complaints are already addressed in the books and major revisions are not necessary. Clearly, many people do not read the whole book, just a few paragraphs here and there.
Nov 30th, 2004, 10:49 AM
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The Blue Book is wonderful, and if visitors turn off their brains and manners, why blame the messenger? I heard this same dumb rap from some places in Maui that got panned. Seems obvious why folks are upset with the authors for revealing what is actually going on in paradise. The only trashing I saw was by Maui residents. aloha.
Nov 30th, 2004, 11:05 AM
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This is obviously a hot button topic!
I read the book before i went to Maui: several times. Without having the real thing in front of me i will say that as i was reading i thought it all (the hikes, waterfalls, pools, etc.) sounded like one big cool theme park that i definitely shouldn't miss. i guess in hindsight it's a good thing that once i got to Maui i was too busy relaxing to run around trespassing on people's private property and flirting with danger!
seriously though, i think there's an issue here that's important and won't go away and shouldn't. the authors' enthusiasm is contagious. i know it's gotten to me. i don't consider myself all that ignorant and foolhardy, but i hate to feel that i'm missing out on anything either, and therein perhaps lies the problem for many of us tourists.
I read the book before i went to Maui: several times. Without having the real thing in front of me i will say that as i was reading i thought it all (the hikes, waterfalls, pools, etc.) sounded like one big cool theme park that i definitely shouldn't miss. i guess in hindsight it's a good thing that once i got to Maui i was too busy relaxing to run around trespassing on people's private property and flirting with danger!
seriously though, i think there's an issue here that's important and won't go away and shouldn't. the authors' enthusiasm is contagious. i know it's gotten to me. i don't consider myself all that ignorant and foolhardy, but i hate to feel that i'm missing out on anything either, and therein perhaps lies the problem for many of us tourists.
Nov 30th, 2004, 11:15 AM
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It has been my experience that American tourists have a bad habit of expecting the world to be sanitized for their pleasure, and they react with shock and dismay when they discover it hasn't been. Maybe it's our culture of warning labels on everything--my iron came with the caveat "do not iron clothing on the body". Or the pernicious influence of theme parks? Who knows. Sounds to me like the Blue Book is mostly accurate, but that some tourists assume the existence of safegaurds where there aren't any.
Put another way: how emphatically must a tour book point out that people can drown in an ocean, or that you could fall down and hurt yourself while hiking??
Put another way: how emphatically must a tour book point out that people can drown in an ocean, or that you could fall down and hurt yourself while hiking??
Nov 30th, 2004, 11:18 AM
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Should a tour book even mention things on private property?
I wouldn't like it if someone wrote "Durham Revealed" and said: walk around to the back of the house and take a good look at the magnolia tree.
Even if the author of Durham Revealed said it was private property, I wouldn't want my home to become a tourist attraction.
I wouldn't like it if someone wrote "Durham Revealed" and said: walk around to the back of the house and take a good look at the magnolia tree.
Even if the author of Durham Revealed said it was private property, I wouldn't want my home to become a tourist attraction.
Nov 30th, 2004, 11:40 AM
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The problem with Helele'ike'oha Falls (Blue Pool) is that while the falls themselves are not on private property, you pretty much have to trespass on private property to get there. The people who live there are very unhappy about the situation and their liability should someone be injured or killed in the process of trying to get to the falls.
We went there last spring and yes, we had the book, but in our group of 8 people one person was reading it and was concentrating on directions. I would not go back -- there are plenty of other beautiful places to see without intruding on others right to privacy.
We went there last spring and yes, we had the book, but in our group of 8 people one person was reading it and was concentrating on directions. I would not go back -- there are plenty of other beautiful places to see without intruding on others right to privacy.
Nov 30th, 2004, 11:45 AM
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RE: E's comment...
AND, the authors DO give a warning at the beginning to the effect of "nature is not Disneyland, it's hard, rough, wet, and unpredictable, use common sense, dummy". Or something like that.
And yes, the Olivine Pools were calm at the bottom when I was there, except for the high point over which the ocean would roar, filling those beautiful pools. We saw idiots (I'm sorry, that's what they are) standing up there on the slippery rocks, shocked that a massive wave just hit them, and they very easily could have been washed away. You need to use common sense, people. Slippery rocks? A churning ocean? Muddy trails? You are not allowed to suspend common sense on vacation and no matter what the book says about a place, it needs to be evaluated at the moment you're there.
And to be fair, the authors often say things like "this is how we found these beaches at a certain time, you may find them differently and you always need to evaluate them for yourself" and "this place is great, but high surf means you can't go" or "if it's raining, don't go" or "watch the skies and beware of flash flooding at any time on a stream". The book is full of warnings, it isn't fair to selectively read it and say "but the book said it's okay". Yes, accidents and deaths are a sad occurence but to march blindly into nature and then blame it on the book? YOU are responsible for YOU, whether it's in Hawaii or crossing the street at home. Just because the light turned green doesn't mean it's safe to cross without looking both ways. "The green light said it's okay" is not an excuse, and neither is "the book said it's okay".
And, on another point, as mentioned by Barbara, the falls at Na'ili'ili-haele are called out as such. They also say that the Venus Pool's real name is Waioka, and I'm pretty sure they do the same with Blue Pool, as well as the Seven Deadly Pools and many, many other places throughout the islands. They probably feel if they only told you the Hawaiian name some people would look at you like you're nuts if you asked about it without knowing a "common name". There's also Keawanaku Beach in south Maui, which they claim they named, in deference to the ancient Hawaiian place name.
Sorry, I get a little worked up with so many people seemingly unwilling to take responsibility for themselves lately..."I didn't know the coffee would be hot", etcetera.
The point is, Stellaluna, go see whatever you desire, but when you get there, make sure that the conditions are good and you feel safe. Be careful of rogue waves at the Olivine Pools, be careful walking on chunky lava where it's easy to fall down or twist an ankle, be careful of rain/flash flooding at the Seven Deadly Pools and any other falls/pool (always watch the skies, the weather can move very quickly on Hawaii), and be careful of muddy trails--Na'ili'ili-haele was pretty muddy when we were there and it had places that required ducking and holding onto bamboo for support. And some people were made really nervous by the stream crossing at the beginning, and guess what? They turned back! Good for them!
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AND, the authors DO give a warning at the beginning to the effect of "nature is not Disneyland, it's hard, rough, wet, and unpredictable, use common sense, dummy". Or something like that.
And yes, the Olivine Pools were calm at the bottom when I was there, except for the high point over which the ocean would roar, filling those beautiful pools. We saw idiots (I'm sorry, that's what they are) standing up there on the slippery rocks, shocked that a massive wave just hit them, and they very easily could have been washed away. You need to use common sense, people. Slippery rocks? A churning ocean? Muddy trails? You are not allowed to suspend common sense on vacation and no matter what the book says about a place, it needs to be evaluated at the moment you're there.
And to be fair, the authors often say things like "this is how we found these beaches at a certain time, you may find them differently and you always need to evaluate them for yourself" and "this place is great, but high surf means you can't go" or "if it's raining, don't go" or "watch the skies and beware of flash flooding at any time on a stream". The book is full of warnings, it isn't fair to selectively read it and say "but the book said it's okay". Yes, accidents and deaths are a sad occurence but to march blindly into nature and then blame it on the book? YOU are responsible for YOU, whether it's in Hawaii or crossing the street at home. Just because the light turned green doesn't mean it's safe to cross without looking both ways. "The green light said it's okay" is not an excuse, and neither is "the book said it's okay".
And, on another point, as mentioned by Barbara, the falls at Na'ili'ili-haele are called out as such. They also say that the Venus Pool's real name is Waioka, and I'm pretty sure they do the same with Blue Pool, as well as the Seven Deadly Pools and many, many other places throughout the islands. They probably feel if they only told you the Hawaiian name some people would look at you like you're nuts if you asked about it without knowing a "common name". There's also Keawanaku Beach in south Maui, which they claim they named, in deference to the ancient Hawaiian place name.
Sorry, I get a little worked up with so many people seemingly unwilling to take responsibility for themselves lately..."I didn't know the coffee would be hot", etcetera.
The point is, Stellaluna, go see whatever you desire, but when you get there, make sure that the conditions are good and you feel safe. Be careful of rogue waves at the Olivine Pools, be careful walking on chunky lava where it's easy to fall down or twist an ankle, be careful of rain/flash flooding at the Seven Deadly Pools and any other falls/pool (always watch the skies, the weather can move very quickly on Hawaii), and be careful of muddy trails--Na'ili'ili-haele was pretty muddy when we were there and it had places that required ducking and holding onto bamboo for support. And some people were made really nervous by the stream crossing at the beginning, and guess what? They turned back! Good for them!
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roxy
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:40 AM
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I have not visited Maui though I am planning to go next May, so I have the 'blue book' as well as other guide books (Lonely Planet and Rough Guide) - Yes I'm a guide book junkie! And I have been using these boards alot to plan ... so this is just my two pennies based on that...
It seems to me that the blue books do not reveal a lot more than say LP and RG - for instance the Blue Pool is in both these guidebooks. However I think what they do do is make the information a lot more accessible - just in the way the book is written, and also there is a lot more detail on how to access these places. It is written in such a way that some ppl will take it as gospel.
Though the books are an excellent resource - they are really detailed in the beaches and activities section for instance - I am not sure I agree with how much they do reveal. Part of the fun of a holiday is to explore - the books kind of take that pleasure away.
I also really don't think its necessary to give bad reviews for hotels, restaurants. Other guidebooks just list positive reviews - and I've read that some businesses have really suffered due to the blue book.
I can see why the books receive a bad press in Hawaii - I myself come from a small island that attracts a lot of tourism (admittedly not on the same scale as Hawaii) - and if my favourite places were suddenly overrun by tourists it would certainly annoy me!
Anyway... just my 2 pennies
It seems to me that the blue books do not reveal a lot more than say LP and RG - for instance the Blue Pool is in both these guidebooks. However I think what they do do is make the information a lot more accessible - just in the way the book is written, and also there is a lot more detail on how to access these places. It is written in such a way that some ppl will take it as gospel.
Though the books are an excellent resource - they are really detailed in the beaches and activities section for instance - I am not sure I agree with how much they do reveal. Part of the fun of a holiday is to explore - the books kind of take that pleasure away.
I also really don't think its necessary to give bad reviews for hotels, restaurants. Other guidebooks just list positive reviews - and I've read that some businesses have really suffered due to the blue book.
I can see why the books receive a bad press in Hawaii - I myself come from a small island that attracts a lot of tourism (admittedly not on the same scale as Hawaii) - and if my favourite places were suddenly overrun by tourists it would certainly annoy me!
Anyway... just my 2 pennies
Dec 2nd, 2004, 05:47 AM
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I am in agreement with all above who advocate people taking responsibility for themselves. I have the informative "Blue Books," and do not feel the authors are responsible for a reader who acts stupidly, and reads into a book what he wants to.
"HereToday" has often said that she has NOT read "Maui Revealed," then proceeds to trash it. Her credibility plummets with that statement. We all need to comment on what we actually know something about.
"HereToday" has often said that she has NOT read "Maui Revealed," then proceeds to trash it. Her credibility plummets with that statement. We all need to comment on what we actually know something about.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:10 AM
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Another thought on this topic: Barbara referred to this -"They always say when private land is involved, but also go tell you to get permission before crossing it (p. 76 amongst others)".
Can you imagine how much "fun" it is for the owners of the mentioned private property to be literally besieged by the readers of these books? Day in and day out, every day, all day, having people come into your yard, knocking at your door, asking permission to go through their property? The first 10 times it might have been ok. But then, imagine if it was your home, your yard, and then 50, 100, 200, 500 people assuming that since the "Blue Bible" is "reliable", it should therefore be OK to come knock at your door, and interfere with your daily life. Not to mention those people who neglect to ask and just trespass. Is it any wonder at all that local people refer to the books as Maui "Reviled"?
Can you imagine how much "fun" it is for the owners of the mentioned private property to be literally besieged by the readers of these books? Day in and day out, every day, all day, having people come into your yard, knocking at your door, asking permission to go through their property? The first 10 times it might have been ok. But then, imagine if it was your home, your yard, and then 50, 100, 200, 500 people assuming that since the "Blue Bible" is "reliable", it should therefore be OK to come knock at your door, and interfere with your daily life. Not to mention those people who neglect to ask and just trespass. Is it any wonder at all that local people refer to the books as Maui "Reviled"?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:20 AM
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Over stated, over stated! I'm beginning to wonder if some of those secondrate guide books for Maui (the jealous ones who didn't create something as interesting as the Blue Book) are posting here. To hear their hysteria, you'd think the goths had invaded paradise and were trashing private lawns as they lugged their boards to the beaches. Hysterics up!
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:28 AM
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travelplans, I'm a fan of the "Revealed" books and I will continue to use them (and the websites, which are invaluable for deciding on where to stay). But my conversation with a local at Blue Pool did change my mind about that particular location and others where you must trespass on private land. It's simply a matter of the Golden Rule.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:34 AM
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Hmmm, we used the Blue Book in Maui twice this year, extensively, and I don't recall a single trespass. I didn't trash anything either. Obviously one must use care and judgment at the pools by the falls and ocean. The Book doesn't advise anyone to take risks or throw caution to the wind. The "Blue" recommended that Maui Taco chain, and it was sfilthy, so we passed. Judgment always, always. These ninnies whining about the Blue Book sould like a bunch of Naderites! Isn't that right, Ahhhnoold?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:06 PM
#19
Regarding trespassing, the authors also state that while the trails they follow may cross private lannd, they have been used for many years by locals. The authors did not, from what I read, initiate new trails. Perhaps it would be in the interest of everyone if the local authorities looked into making these trails public rights-of-way. Obviously, there would be pros and cons, but instead of just complaining about one of the island's major sources of income and blaming the authors of a guide book, why not try to do something constructive?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:07 PM
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So travelplans - you think that local people who complain about their property being trashed are ninnies? How unkind of you.
I was going to say: why don't you send us your address so that we could do the same thing to your property, and then watch your reaction, but that obviously wouldn't work. Nor would it be very nice of me. So let me just say this: we obviously disagree about these books. And, if you search this site and read the other posts about them, you'll find that the people who are most upset about the books are the people who live in Hawaii. Not the people who visit. It's not only private property that's being damaged: it's also restricted conservation land.
Once again, please read the following:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar.../ln/ln01a.html
I was going to say: why don't you send us your address so that we could do the same thing to your property, and then watch your reaction, but that obviously wouldn't work. Nor would it be very nice of me. So let me just say this: we obviously disagree about these books. And, if you search this site and read the other posts about them, you'll find that the people who are most upset about the books are the people who live in Hawaii. Not the people who visit. It's not only private property that's being damaged: it's also restricted conservation land.
Once again, please read the following:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar.../ln/ln01a.html
