Maui Blue Book: unsafe advice?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:15 PM
#21
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"Though the books are an excellent resource - they are really detailed in the beaches and activities section for instance - I am not sure I agree with how much they do reveal. Part of the fun of a holiday is to explore - the books kind of take that pleasure away."
Who is stopping you from exploring further? They haven't discovered everything on all the islands. Would you make that same comment about other guidebooks?
love
roxy
Who is stopping you from exploring further? They haven't discovered everything on all the islands. Would you make that same comment about other guidebooks?
love
roxy
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:16 PM
#22
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"Regarding trespassing, the authors also state that while the trails they follow may cross private lannd, they have been used for many years by locals."
Surely there is a huge difference between seeing your neighbor cut across your backyard and having dozens of people every day (or more) do the same?
Surely there is a huge difference between seeing your neighbor cut across your backyard and having dozens of people every day (or more) do the same?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:53 PM
#23
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The real trashers I witnessed were clearly locals, not tourists. For some reason, the locals seem to get a real burn about that book. I actually believe what's at play here is resentment that any of us tarvel to the islands and enjoy them. I think Maui has a raging Oregonian complex. Surfs up!
Dec 2nd, 2004, 01:26 PM
#25
Marilyn, legally, there may not be any difference at all, and how many of these trails actually go through backyards where the homeowner can see people?
But why doesn't Maui county set up a system of trails? Anybody using the trails would have to have buy a pass, which could be for varying lengths of time, at varying costs. The cost of the passes would pay for maintenance of the trails and for a small number of rangers to patrol the trails. The people of Maui are not shy about gouging tourists for tours, etc., so why the reluctance to do something here? You know this could be resolved, but all I see is whining. Well, how badly will they whine when those millions of tourist dollars go elsewhere?
But why doesn't Maui county set up a system of trails? Anybody using the trails would have to have buy a pass, which could be for varying lengths of time, at varying costs. The cost of the passes would pay for maintenance of the trails and for a small number of rangers to patrol the trails. The people of Maui are not shy about gouging tourists for tours, etc., so why the reluctance to do something here? You know this could be resolved, but all I see is whining. Well, how badly will they whine when those millions of tourist dollars go elsewhere?
Dec 2nd, 2004, 01:36 PM
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Barbara, I meant "backyard" as a metaphor. I don't know about the other places in MR that might involve trespassing on private property. My only experience was at Blue Pool.
However, we were there on an overcast weekday in March, not exactly the busiest tourist season, and there were dozens of people milling around, crossing the stream, etc. (I can only imagine how many people are there on a sunny day in December.) I wouldn't like it if I lived there. It was not a matter of trashing the area, but simply of people being there.
In any case, with the world political situation the way it is, I doubt if Hawaii tourist dollars will do anything but skyrocket. Most people would prefer to take their chances being washed out to sea by a rogue wave to being the victim of a terrorist bomb, even though their chances of the former are probably far greater than the latter.
However, we were there on an overcast weekday in March, not exactly the busiest tourist season, and there were dozens of people milling around, crossing the stream, etc. (I can only imagine how many people are there on a sunny day in December.) I wouldn't like it if I lived there. It was not a matter of trashing the area, but simply of people being there.
In any case, with the world political situation the way it is, I doubt if Hawaii tourist dollars will do anything but skyrocket. Most people would prefer to take their chances being washed out to sea by a rogue wave to being the victim of a terrorist bomb, even though their chances of the former are probably far greater than the latter.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 01:44 PM
#28
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travelplans - you never did respond to my statement about your calling local people ninnies...
And now you say," For some reason, the locals seem to get a real burn about that book. I actually believe what's at play here is resentment that any of us tarvel (sic) to the islands and enjoy them "
We've already explained the "burn about the books", or didn't you believe what we wrote?. As for your imagined observation of our resentment... we like people who come to the islands and enjoy them. We like people who love our land and respect it and its beauty. What we don't like is people who refer to us as ninnies for expressing our honest opinions about the destruction of our property and watershed lands.
And now you say," For some reason, the locals seem to get a real burn about that book. I actually believe what's at play here is resentment that any of us tarvel (sic) to the islands and enjoy them "
We've already explained the "burn about the books", or didn't you believe what we wrote?. As for your imagined observation of our resentment... we like people who come to the islands and enjoy them. We like people who love our land and respect it and its beauty. What we don't like is people who refer to us as ninnies for expressing our honest opinions about the destruction of our property and watershed lands.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 02:04 PM
#29
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Leelane, you need to read my post again. Did you miss the part where I said I can only share some of the "mishaps, rescues and deaths that are often attributed to visitors following the advice in the book."? Every few weeks we read in the local news of a mishap, and nearly always the trapped hikers or a member of the unfortunate's family is quoted as saying they thought they were in a safe place because of what they read in the book.
Do the authors say that Naili`ilihaele is on private property owned by Alexander and Baldwin and is part of the East Maui Irrigation watershed lands? Earlier this year when 24 hikers were trapped there A&B was seriously concerned about how to best protect themselves, since obviously posting signs was not sufficient. The hikers told the fire chief who rescued them they found their way to the site via MR. Had one of those hikers died, do you think the families would sue the MR authors, or A&B? This a very legitimate concern, and one does not have to have read the book to be aware of such occurrances here on the island.
I have friends who own property adjecent to one of the locations featured in the book. They have experienced many problems with traffic in what was once a peaceful quiet rural area. Now they can set their clocks by the arrival of the first cars each day. The grass and plants they once had growing on the edge of their property has now become a muddy parking area. They have given up trying to keep the cars off of their lawn. Additionally, they are now very concerned about their property values. They are thinking of listing what until very recently was their dream house, because of the extreme increase in traffic and people, but they are pretty sure that this will be a negative selling point to any potential buyers.
And as for the place names, I stand corrected if the authors do use the correct names, but, again, this is only a common sentiment I hear regarding the book, specifically from Uncle Charles Kauluwehi Maxwell, a respected Hawaiian activist, culturalist and a member of the Ahihi-Kinau/Keoneoio Advisory Group. Again, this purely anecdotal, but one does not need to read the book to see and hear the impact it has had.
And, although some of you feel the authors provide sufficient warnings, perhaps it might behoove them to be a bit more clear for those who do not fully get it. Not everyone who visits here has experience with the ocean, with tropical storms, hiking through the hot sun, over jagged a`a or swimming in and around coral reefs. Another seriously common complaint I hear is the failure of the authors to thoroughly explain kapus and fully indentify sacred places. It is really nice to say that we should rely on personal repsonsibility to not trespass or place ourselves in the way of danger, but a little education can go a long way. I hate reading of visitors who are injured or worse on their vacations here.
Do the authors say that Naili`ilihaele is on private property owned by Alexander and Baldwin and is part of the East Maui Irrigation watershed lands? Earlier this year when 24 hikers were trapped there A&B was seriously concerned about how to best protect themselves, since obviously posting signs was not sufficient. The hikers told the fire chief who rescued them they found their way to the site via MR. Had one of those hikers died, do you think the families would sue the MR authors, or A&B? This a very legitimate concern, and one does not have to have read the book to be aware of such occurrances here on the island.
I have friends who own property adjecent to one of the locations featured in the book. They have experienced many problems with traffic in what was once a peaceful quiet rural area. Now they can set their clocks by the arrival of the first cars each day. The grass and plants they once had growing on the edge of their property has now become a muddy parking area. They have given up trying to keep the cars off of their lawn. Additionally, they are now very concerned about their property values. They are thinking of listing what until very recently was their dream house, because of the extreme increase in traffic and people, but they are pretty sure that this will be a negative selling point to any potential buyers.
And as for the place names, I stand corrected if the authors do use the correct names, but, again, this is only a common sentiment I hear regarding the book, specifically from Uncle Charles Kauluwehi Maxwell, a respected Hawaiian activist, culturalist and a member of the Ahihi-Kinau/Keoneoio Advisory Group. Again, this purely anecdotal, but one does not need to read the book to see and hear the impact it has had.
And, although some of you feel the authors provide sufficient warnings, perhaps it might behoove them to be a bit more clear for those who do not fully get it. Not everyone who visits here has experience with the ocean, with tropical storms, hiking through the hot sun, over jagged a`a or swimming in and around coral reefs. Another seriously common complaint I hear is the failure of the authors to thoroughly explain kapus and fully indentify sacred places. It is really nice to say that we should rely on personal repsonsibility to not trespass or place ourselves in the way of danger, but a little education can go a long way. I hate reading of visitors who are injured or worse on their vacations here.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 02:28 PM
#30
Why would the Maui people rely on guide book authors to identify sacred places? Why doesn't the local authority/tourist board/whatever so this? These things you'r all so unhappy about are notgoing to stop just because, on Maui, one guide book isn't available.
Here Today, once again, READ THE BOOK! Or, stop telling us what's wrong with it.
Here Today, once again, READ THE BOOK! Or, stop telling us what's wrong with it.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:02 PM
#31
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As usual, I find Here_today's posts to be helpful, thoughtful and intelligent. She is posting to report on how people who live on Maui perceive Maui Revealed. She does not claim to have first-hand knowledge of the text, but clearly does have helpful first-hand knowledge of how people on Maui think about the book. Her comments are valuable regardless of whether she has read the book.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:25 PM
#32
And I also usually find Here Today's posts to be knowledgeable and very helpful, but in this case, by repeating what is virtually gossip, no matter who it comes from, she is perpetuating falsehoods. I'm not going to call them lies, because they're not, really. They are ignorant assumptions, though. However, she doesn't just repeat things, she makes judgements too.
Travelplans, all guide book restaurant recommendations are out of date by the time the book is printed, unfortunately. So you have to take them cautiously.
Travelplans, all guide book restaurant recommendations are out of date by the time the book is printed, unfortunately. So you have to take them cautiously.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 06:52 PM
#33
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Yes, these are places that have been used by locals for many years. But the big difference is the jump from a few people to hundreds a day. I have heard of upwards of 300 cars a day stopping at Ula'ino Road. Some of the places have great cultural significance, and have been visited by many generation of kupuna. Other places, if you ask locals, they might be reluctant to tell you how to get there, whether for your own good, or because you just don't belong there. Try asking locals in Hana how to get to Kaihalulu. Chances are they will ask you "Why you want go there?"
We have many trails here on Maui. We have Haleakala National Park full of trails. Poli Poli, around the crater, `Iao Valley--all have clearly marked trails, complete with warnings posted, park rangers, facilities. Would you go to say, any random area in New Hampshire or Arizona and hike through private lands? Sure locals might be hiking in there, but they know the terrain, know the dangers, and probably know the landowners.
I sincerely doubt that restricting tourist access to private lands will affect the tourist trade here. We have miles of beaches--all public lands, much National and State park lands. For years people have been coming here without the need to swim in a stream on private land.
Most of the visitors I meet are wonderful people and most of those who live here are open and friendly to those of you who come here to visit. Aloha is very much alive and well, and if you give aloha, you will get it back ten fold. But respect is important. You would expect visitors to your home to respect you and your home, wouldn't you? Taking the attitude that we should be falling at your feet because you chose to come here to vacation will not endear you to anyone here. Sure, tourism is a large part of our economy, but if it were to go away forever tomorrow most of the islands would simply revert back to the fishing and agricultural societies that many wish we still had. Those who came here to profit from the tourism would just move on. My husband lived here in the 1960's and 1970's, before there was tourism. He lived a carefree life, spear fishing, surfing, cutting bananas, working at the long-gone distillery and on the ranches. He often waxes poetic and laments the loss of the simpler life he remembers.
And talk about how we "gouge" visitors will not endear you to us either. Doing business here is very expensive; living here is expenisve. This is in part due to the tourism on the island. Much of the land has been converted to tourism uses, thus raising the costs across the board. When there were no hotels or vacation rentals, land was cheap, thus taxes were low. I know many small business owners who eke out a meager living, serving the needs of tourists. Costs are higher, so the prices are high too. If you are referring to the large resorts, then shame on you for allowing them to gouge you. But they are not the people of Maui--they are mainland and Japanese corporations who will gouge you as easily anywhere else in the world. I think if you stopped to think about what you are saying and compare the cost of services to those in other resort areas, you will find that no one is gouging you.
Barbara, I wish you much aloha. If you feel that I am in some way trying to mislead you by sharing with you, I apologize for not being able to express myslef more clearly. If you search the Maui News, the Honolulu Advertiser or other news sources you can find all of the events I have recanted, including the references to MR. Not everyone who visits here is savvy enough to know that there is danger in the ocean and in the mountain streams, and sadly, many are injured or worse. The question was posed, what places in the book could be considerd unsafe? I do not need to read the book to know what places can be unsafe here on our wonderful island. Nor do I need to read the book to see how people I know personally are affected by large numbers of visitors in their neighborhood, or to read in the paper how Alexander and Baldwin fear they may someday face a lawsuit because are being led to dangerous palces on thier property.
Maui is a wonderful place and we love to share it with anyone who can appreciate the beauty of our island. But you must understand that people live here, just as you live in your neighborhood, and they deserve the same respect that you deserve in regards to your privacy and your property.
We have many trails here on Maui. We have Haleakala National Park full of trails. Poli Poli, around the crater, `Iao Valley--all have clearly marked trails, complete with warnings posted, park rangers, facilities. Would you go to say, any random area in New Hampshire or Arizona and hike through private lands? Sure locals might be hiking in there, but they know the terrain, know the dangers, and probably know the landowners.
I sincerely doubt that restricting tourist access to private lands will affect the tourist trade here. We have miles of beaches--all public lands, much National and State park lands. For years people have been coming here without the need to swim in a stream on private land.
Most of the visitors I meet are wonderful people and most of those who live here are open and friendly to those of you who come here to visit. Aloha is very much alive and well, and if you give aloha, you will get it back ten fold. But respect is important. You would expect visitors to your home to respect you and your home, wouldn't you? Taking the attitude that we should be falling at your feet because you chose to come here to vacation will not endear you to anyone here. Sure, tourism is a large part of our economy, but if it were to go away forever tomorrow most of the islands would simply revert back to the fishing and agricultural societies that many wish we still had. Those who came here to profit from the tourism would just move on. My husband lived here in the 1960's and 1970's, before there was tourism. He lived a carefree life, spear fishing, surfing, cutting bananas, working at the long-gone distillery and on the ranches. He often waxes poetic and laments the loss of the simpler life he remembers.
And talk about how we "gouge" visitors will not endear you to us either. Doing business here is very expensive; living here is expenisve. This is in part due to the tourism on the island. Much of the land has been converted to tourism uses, thus raising the costs across the board. When there were no hotels or vacation rentals, land was cheap, thus taxes were low. I know many small business owners who eke out a meager living, serving the needs of tourists. Costs are higher, so the prices are high too. If you are referring to the large resorts, then shame on you for allowing them to gouge you. But they are not the people of Maui--they are mainland and Japanese corporations who will gouge you as easily anywhere else in the world. I think if you stopped to think about what you are saying and compare the cost of services to those in other resort areas, you will find that no one is gouging you.
Barbara, I wish you much aloha. If you feel that I am in some way trying to mislead you by sharing with you, I apologize for not being able to express myslef more clearly. If you search the Maui News, the Honolulu Advertiser or other news sources you can find all of the events I have recanted, including the references to MR. Not everyone who visits here is savvy enough to know that there is danger in the ocean and in the mountain streams, and sadly, many are injured or worse. The question was posed, what places in the book could be considerd unsafe? I do not need to read the book to know what places can be unsafe here on our wonderful island. Nor do I need to read the book to see how people I know personally are affected by large numbers of visitors in their neighborhood, or to read in the paper how Alexander and Baldwin fear they may someday face a lawsuit because are being led to dangerous palces on thier property.
Maui is a wonderful place and we love to share it with anyone who can appreciate the beauty of our island. But you must understand that people live here, just as you live in your neighborhood, and they deserve the same respect that you deserve in regards to your privacy and your property.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:17 PM
#34
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You know what everyone.... I DON'T NEED TO BE FAIR TO THE AUTHORS. Here-today-gone-to-Maui does not need to read the books. She has intimate information that makes her a perfect witness to the effects this book has had on this island. I own three of their books, Maui, Kauai and Big Island. I have read them front to back. I have invested my money in their product. I have advised others to check their books out. And days like today, breezing thru many of the previous posts, I regret recommending their book. What has the Blue book offered me personally? Triking and the dangerous but glorious Olivine Pools. That's truly it! $45 for 3 books. I found blue pool on my own, reading about it in an obscure place for the perfect picnic spot. My first trip to Blue Pool, I had locals waving and laughing because they knew with my car, I was a tourist in the know. My presence was welcomed, so long as they didn't have to tow me out!The last time I visited, well it was a short trip. The vibe is lost. The neighbors have been violated. You could just feel it. How would you like 100 to 500 people a day suddenly parking in your front yard, and then cutting thru your woods to leave trash on your hidden neighborhood gems? I am always looking for hidden gems. However, I prefer to hear from people from this forum and fellow adventurers. If you are staying in Hana, investing in the community, you will be told the hidden gems.
Furthermore, they recommended many to hike into sacred land to snorkling spots past Makena. Bad for the spirits and the ecosystems. I love the entertainment value of the book. I recognize what they were trying to do, but they have done damage, tremendous damage. Really with no intent. You can find all these places without their help, if you search it out and are a true adventurer. They took the guessing out of it. They brought what should be well regarded and respected special places, and brought them to the masses, without any thought of how their actions would effect the way of life of many islanders, fish, and wildlife. Roxy.....you have confused me. We usually see eye to eye. Perhaps I misread some of these posts.
If you love it, Protect it!!! Otherwise, the only choice will be like Martha's Vineyard in MA, where there are private beaches, that only people renting in that area can gain access to. In due time, if I owned in Hana, this would be the option I would look for. Protect the beauty for the true visitors. Want to hike to redbeach, venus pool, show us your house rental pass..........it could happen.
Wow that was longwinded, sorry. I just need to defend the Mauians being attacked by tourists on this subject. You have no right, untill you live there and pay taxes there.
Mahalo
gyppielou
Furthermore, they recommended many to hike into sacred land to snorkling spots past Makena. Bad for the spirits and the ecosystems. I love the entertainment value of the book. I recognize what they were trying to do, but they have done damage, tremendous damage. Really with no intent. You can find all these places without their help, if you search it out and are a true adventurer. They took the guessing out of it. They brought what should be well regarded and respected special places, and brought them to the masses, without any thought of how their actions would effect the way of life of many islanders, fish, and wildlife. Roxy.....you have confused me. We usually see eye to eye. Perhaps I misread some of these posts.
If you love it, Protect it!!! Otherwise, the only choice will be like Martha's Vineyard in MA, where there are private beaches, that only people renting in that area can gain access to. In due time, if I owned in Hana, this would be the option I would look for. Protect the beauty for the true visitors. Want to hike to redbeach, venus pool, show us your house rental pass..........it could happen.
Wow that was longwinded, sorry. I just need to defend the Mauians being attacked by tourists on this subject. You have no right, untill you live there and pay taxes there.
Mahalo
gyppielou
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:28 PM
#35
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Barbara, darling, where do you live? I would truly love to come visit and discuss why you think you have more rights then people of this island. Maybe, I missed that you live there and pay taxes. If that is the case, I truly apologize for questioning you. However, if you are a tourist, or a friend of the authors then please repost and state your full intent before continuing to attack the residents of Maui.
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:53 PM
#37
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I just read somewhere that there was another incident this month (just before Thanksgiving) on Maui concerning this blue book. The tourist sounded extremely angry. Read it here.
http://mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=3302
http://mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=3302
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:56 PM
#38
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Roxy,
A fair point... I'm sure they haven't discovered everything about the islands. I guess the point I was making (not very well!) was that for my tastes theres just a little too much detail... my kind of guide gives me a few pointers and I go out there and discover on my own. Everyone's different, thats just my opinion.
do you not think the 'specialness' (sorry my brain is failing me, can't think of a better word) of some of these places could be lost by the way they are described in so much detail in the books? I've not been to Maui of course, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about! But that is just the sense I get.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves I do feel the authors have a responsibility to Hawaii and its residents over what they decide to put in print. All imho of course!
A fair point... I'm sure they haven't discovered everything about the islands. I guess the point I was making (not very well!) was that for my tastes theres just a little too much detail... my kind of guide gives me a few pointers and I go out there and discover on my own. Everyone's different, thats just my opinion.
do you not think the 'specialness' (sorry my brain is failing me, can't think of a better word) of some of these places could be lost by the way they are described in so much detail in the books? I've not been to Maui of course, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about! But that is just the sense I get.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves I do feel the authors have a responsibility to Hawaii and its residents over what they decide to put in print. All imho of course!
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:54 AM
#39
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I just read the article that Offlady referred to. A quote from it:
'At the Blue Pool, they saw "no trespassing" signs, but thought the signs were posted to keep people from venturing down nearby driveways. Vehicles parked at the end of the dirt road and a crowd of other tourists also gave the Pickels the impression that it was OK for them to be there, she said.'
That lady and her husband chose to ignore the posted warning. They are not victims!
'At the Blue Pool, they saw "no trespassing" signs, but thought the signs were posted to keep people from venturing down nearby driveways. Vehicles parked at the end of the dirt road and a crowd of other tourists also gave the Pickels the impression that it was OK for them to be there, she said.'
That lady and her husband chose to ignore the posted warning. They are not victims!
