JJ5

KT, actually that's exactly the most common index used when systems or publications rate colleges. And they are indexed by programs thoroughly as well.

And Kennedy- I also know a ton of Engineers from U.of I. who've received an excellent all around education and have better paying jobs than the Purdue crowd. You can not assume the bigger name degree is worth more in reality any more.

MaureenB

Nikki, I remember responding to your post. Does your daughter go to D.U. grad school or law school? I hope your visit to Denver went smoothly. I just returned from Baltimore, helping my daughter settle into her first apartment. Thank goodness for Target, and Bed/Bath/and Beyond, right?

Maybe we should start a new thread, because this is an interesting subject-- the cultural differences on college campuses, east v. west.

In a nutshell, and without meaning to offend anyone, after two years in Baltimore my daughter misses the 'outdoorsy' nature of here vs. the nighlife-orientation she finds there. Free time is spent going out very late at night there, dressing up and going to dinners/parties. More emphasis placed on fine shoes, jewelry, and clothes. Contrasted with CU/Boulder, where kids go hiking and biking in free time, etc. and dress much more casually.

This is not to say one is better than the other, just different points-of-view noticed in the different environments. Weather probably plays a big part in the differences, I suspect.

Nikki

Maureen, our trip went quite smoothly except for our little detour to the mechanic in Crook, Colorado. I am not making this up.

My daughter is in the graduate school at D.U.

I am quite amused at your description of Eastern college culture. CAPH52, if she is still around, must be chuckling herself, since her daughter is at Hampshire College, where my daughter went for her undergraduate degree, and where nightlife, dressing up, and fine shoes, jewelry and clothes are virtually unknown. My younger daughter is at Brandeis, where this is also an unknown lifestyle. In fact I didn't think there were schools like that any more. Surprised to hear that Johns Hopkins is one of them.

suehoff

I definitely think a thread (totally off-topic, not very travelly-YIKES the travel only guys will scream)on colleges and their cultures-perceived and as experieced -would be fascinating. After three college kids I feel that we've traversed a few strata, lived vicariously through kids and our visits with them and met head on our preconceptions and hopefully we got smarter along w/ the kids....

MaureenB

I don't mean to imply that Baltimore and Hopkins, the east coast in general, or CU/Boulder for that matter, are precisely as my daughter perceives them to be. (Remember the wonderful Perception/Reality ad campaign by Rolling Stone??) Just her interpretation of her experience; unique to her time and place. No more, no less. But a learning process all in all. Like I said, I hope the bottom line is that she settles in Colorado eventually!
Our travels teach us many things...

KT

JJ5, I don't know which college rankings you've been looking at, but the ones I've seen, including the most commonly quoted one, U.S. News and World Reports, do not rank undergraduate institutions based on alumni income. Instead, the include such measures as peer assessment of quality, student-faculty ratios, selectivity, graduation and retention rates, SAT scores and high school class rank, and percentage of alumni giving. And the rankings are by no means uncontroversial in the world of higher education, because they don't address many less easily measurable factors.

JJ5

I just did a database search for college ratings sources. It's dense. There are 100's. They are actually rating them for political stance as well as degree program starting salaries.

There are also a lot of publications on highlighting the under-represented fields of study for the jobs most in demand for future populations. Nursing is one. And they ARE getting recruited right now. Many of the other fields are not. Students AND parents do want to know these things up front much more than in the past.

Not that they don't have any value for liberal arts or a holistic experience for some growth, but they also want a more marketable degree.

wyatt92

MaureenB- I think your daughter's observations regarding colleges on the East Coast vs. Colorado or other western states is probably a fairly accurate representation of the differences between these two parts of the country in general. Different parts of the country can be, well, different. That's why I think it's so important for kids to go to a college where they feel comfortable socially and culture-wise. Great if that's your state school but if not, well that's the way it is.

As we all know, college is about so much more than just academics. That's why the argument that paying for an out of state school or a private university is a "waste" or "worthless" is just ridiculous in my opinion. If parents can afford a high tuition and are willing to pay it then so be it. It's not a waste if a student enjoys where they are and have a happy 4 (or 5!) years.

I happen to have fallen in love with my state school and was very happy there but my parents wanted me to go wherever it was that I'd be happy. Same with my son, if he's got his heart set on a private college then I'll do my best to make it happen.

WxWyWz

We did n0t "send" our daughters anywhere. They chose to go to Tufts and U-Va-Cville

We spent over 18 years with each of them, teaching and guiding them and reinforcing that they would be responsible to fund their own schooling, as we did. Both have done great on scholarships & grants. They have kept loans to a minimum, working hard during school and harder during vacations. Trips home are at their own expense, both for transportation and lost hours at their parttime jobs and consulting business.

We are extremely proud of their sense of independence and determination. Our once little chicks are flying high.

Orcas

Lots of good points already raised in this interesting thread, so I won't repeat them. I'll just add a few observations.

Colleges across the country are doing a lot more to support undergraduates academically and socially than in the past. They are more concerned about retention.

At the state university my daughter is going to in Washington, WSU, 60% of the students take more than four years to graduate. I believe statistics are similar at UW. This is something to ask about and consider in figuring finances.

It is extremely difficult to get into many majors in the universities in Washington. Application is made after the sophomore year. There are a small number of slots for high demand fields like nursing, and the vast majority of students are not accepted. At that point, the student can change their major, try to get into a private school, or continue taking classes and reapply the next cycle. This is one of the reasons most students are taking more than four years to graduate. Another reason is that some courses must be taken in sequence and there are an insufficent number of classroom slots available. Students go on-line as soon as registration opens hoping to get through so they can register before classes are filled.

I am wondering if other states are having the same experiences. In Washington, insufficient State funding is the reason for the problems described above. I will add that tuition at state schools has gone up faster than the rate of inflation for several years. As well as getting more expensive, the state schools in Washington are getting harder and harder to get into as demand increases (perhaps because more people are living in the state) and the state doesn't increase university slots accordingly. It is not a good time for higher education. It is ironic that the big push is for "no child left behind" and the government is short-changing higher education, at least in Washington, Oregon and California.

Fodorite018

Orcas--Your words are very similar to many discussions I had with my dentist in Edmonds, lol! We are still a few years away from college with our children, but I do hope it works for them to finish in 4yrs like I was able. My DH finished in 3 years in Engineering, but I think that might be a bit too optimistic.

seetheworld

Ocras, unfortunately NCLB is still short-changing K-12, but that's another can of worms.

What I notice from many of my friends whose children attend NY state universities and later decide to transfer to private, is that sequencing is a problem, and additional course work is necessary to get on the right "track". It begins to add up quickly. I also see many taking more than 4 years to complete their program. Nothing is wrong with it, but again it ups the cost.

MaureenB

Fastweb.com is a good source of info. on scholarships and schools. You can create a profile and it will generate a list of schools that fit. It will also send you e-mails notifying you of scholarship deadlines. It's a good resource, with single-page summaries of most colleges and universities.

tennislvr1

first of all, I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but beware that if your kid takes a "gap year" he/she could lose their health insurance. MOst insurance companies require them to take at least 12 units to stay eligible.

On another note...our story is quite different. We live in Calif. and our son was set to attend a private liberal arts college in the Bay Area. Suddenly, he changed his mind and decided to attend San Diego State University. What a GREAT school! Despite it's size, the kids are given alot of personalized attention and we are very impressed. And afforable, too! Great school spirit and what a fun town to live in. They are really trying hard to shed the "party school" reputation and they watch the kids closely in their freshman year to keep them on track. Our son loves his classes and SDSU is known for its great business school. We couldn't be happier for him and now we have a great destination spot to visit!

ktyson

Hi,

My oldest is 21. He graduated from high school and got a job. He did really well in high school and I'm sure would do well in college, but he says there is no time for that because he works 2 jobs.(and he hates them both). You see, he has a materialistic, money hungry girl friend. If anyone has any advice, please advise me.

My youngest is a junior in high school, and we are beginning the college search. Our public university doesn't offer much in scholarships and is very selective, so she may end up at an out of state private school. The day she leaves for college will be the sadest day of my life.

Nikki

Orcas, you can add Massachusetts to that list of states that underfund their public universities.

GoTravel

kytson, he doesn't have a money hungry girlfriend because no 21 year old makes that much money working minimum wage jobs.

The pressures of working two jobs for no money will get old as soon as he sees his former high school friends start to graduate college and get high paying jobs.

If junior is living at home, I suggest you boot him out. From what you write, he isn't saving money for anything just spending the money on the girlfriend.

Why should things change if there is no motivation to change.

Good luck.

JJ5

GoTravel, you make the assumption that they are minimum wage jobs, they may be but they may not be either.

My son-in-law did this (as kytson's is), as did two of my next door neighbor's boys. They got into trades (electrical, heating/air cond., carpentry) and they are making more money and own nicer homes 10 years later than their peers who went to school. One is a contractor who is probably a multi-millionaire. You do know that the USA is in a building, mechanical, and trade skills shortage?

And so many here just don't get one point, and that is that PARENTS are trying to please their offspring to the tune of ruining their own financial futures. Just hope you are not sorry, because I'm seeing a glut of that in my 60 plus year old friends.

And here in IL we have 5 or 6 tremendous State Schools and only 2 that I know of have difficult acceptance requirements. We do not have the problems posted here to that degree as other states on that score.

And kytson, I feel for you. We in a working class neighborhood, city, life see this scenario VERY MUCH. One of mine got cured by working/pouring foundations /concrete for two summers.
You can only encourage.

Many here are of a socio-economic group that similarly does not understand the economics of those who make too much to get aid, but too little to afford- well really anything now- and still have money to live- despite any savings.

And yes, sequencing is key. The most anger I have seen has actually been about this issue. All my kids graduated in 4 years, and they did go to school through at least one summer. And that is because we (even with school transfers) went with the bigger picture and did not always concur with advisor class sequence or designation. If you are going into another program YOU need to do a lot of research into what will be applicable.

GoTravel

JJ5, if someone is having to work two jobs to satisfy a gold digging girlfriend, chances are they aren't making more than minimum wage. Also, not too many 21 year olds have the experience or education to make good money. Yes, I know there are exceptions but from kytson's post, it sure doesn't sound like her son is one of those people.

If your child was making a decent living, would you try to talk him into going back to school?

Orcas

In spite of their problems, the State universities are good in Washington, and the best choice for many students. Our daughter is a freshman at Washington State University and it seems to be a very good fit for her. They offers lots of academic support and campus life is rich. It is likely she will be there for five years, though, as that is the norm, alas.

On the son who is working two jobs, I don't think kids really listen to parents at that age. I think parents need to try to disengage, as much as possible, and let their child make their own decisions and be responsible for the consequences. This means cutting them off the dole, which can be tough if the kid has problems. I have a friend whose daughter had a lot of problems in high school and couldn't make it in college. She is doing better but still not completely self-sufficient. They are still supporting her, in a limited way and with conditions, in the hopes that she will be able to stand on her own two feet soon. It is not easy and, once more, one size doesn't fit all.